How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?

How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front
Derailleur?

Spirt seems like a superior design concept, given one has the extra
cable stop/housing. And front derailleurs seem primitive any way, so
is there significantly different better materials that would make the
newer Tiagra a superior choice over the Spirt? It doesn not look like
many older cast materials, so its hard to visually note material
differences from pictures, like with the rear derailleur differences.


Thanks!!

And working with a 53-39t dual DA crank may present constraints size
wise.

Thanks Again :-)

On Feb 19, 8:30 am, "ddog" wrote:
How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front
Derailleur?

Spirt seems like a superior design concept, given one has the extra
cable stop/housing. And front derailleurs seem primitive any way, so
is there significantly different better materials that would make the
newer Tiagra a superior choice over the Spirt? It doesn not look like
many older cast materials, so its hard to visually note material
differences from pictures, like with the rear derailleur differences.


I'd call the extra housing a weakness - more housing means more
friction. Especially down in that area, where water off the front
wheel showers the Bottom Bracket and one end of the housing, and the
other end of the housing is pointing straight up, so it's prone to
collecting water and rusting.

Nonetheless, the biggest difference you'd notice is that the Spirt is
reverse-action; i.e. Big ring normal. The Tiagra also has a wider cage
to accommodate front indexing. That means more lever throw to make
your shift, but also less trimming

Otherwise, on a double crank, FDs are about as simple as things get.
If you were running a triple, I'd say modern is definitely better,
with ramps on the cage matched to a range of ring sizes to push the
chain off with less overshifting needed.

I had a Spirt on my first 10-speed and I really liked the reverse
action. Pull either lever towards you, get an easier gear. It seems to
make more sense to have it on the front than on the rear (Rapid-rise)
so that it's cable, rather than spring, giving you you lower gears.

On Feb 19, 11:55 am, "Hank Wirtz" wrote:
I'd call the extra housing a weakness - more housing means more
friction. Especially down in that area, where water off the front
wheel showers the Bottom Bracket and one end of the housing, and the
other end of the housing is pointing straight up, so it's prone to
collecting water and rusting.

Nonetheless, the biggest difference you'd notice is that the Spirt is
reverse-action; i.e. Big ring normal. The Tiagra also has a wider cage
to accommodate front indexing. That means more lever throw to make
your shift, but also less trimming

Otherwise, on a double crank, FDs are about as simple as things get.
If you were running a triple, I'd say modern is definitely better,
with ramps on the cage matched to a range of ring sizes to push the
chain off with less overshifting needed.

I had a Spirt on my first 10-speed and I really liked the reverse
action. Pull either lever towards you, get an easier gear. It seems to
make more sense to have it on the front than on the rear (Rapid-rise)
so that it's cable, rather than spring, giving you you lower gears.

Hank,

Thanks! I appreciate that valuable information. Just 2 more questions
please.

1. Is there any 53t constraints like I've noticed on later front
derauilleurs to 50t max?
2. Is this the only or latest model of Suntour with cable vs. spring
action from big sprocket?

Since I rarely if ever (now in flatlands) use my granny gear, it also
seems better to have it aligned
to larger sprocket vs the one I never or rarely use.

And I think there are sealed cable ferrules so that may be a solution
for the rain entry in housing - ?


Thanks,
Phil Bailey

On Feb 19, 9:11 am, "ddog" wrote:


1. Is there any 53t constraints like I've noticed on later front
derauilleurs to 50t max?

I used mine with a 52/42 double. I can't imagine that 53 would be a
problem.

2. Is this the only or latest model of Suntour with cable vs. spring
action from big sprocket?

There was a Suntour XC (not XC Pro, not XC Comp, not XC9000, just XC)
that was reverse-action, too, designed for triples with a 48-ish big
ring, and it didn't require the housing. Very popular among the
touring crowd.

Since I rarely if ever (now in flatlands) use my granny gear, it also
seems better to have it aligned
to larger sprocket vs the one I never or rarely use.

Braggart.

And the small ring on the double isn't called a Granny. A Granny is
the smallest ring on a triple. On a double, it's just a small ring.


And I think there are sealed cable ferrules so that may be a solution
for the rain entry in housing - ?

There are now, but there weren't when the derailleur was made thirty
years ago. Nor was there plastic housing liner back then.

On Feb 19, 1:27 pm, "Hank Wirtz" wrote:
On Feb 19, 9:11 am, "ddog" wrote:

1. Is there any 53t constraints like I've noticed on later front
derauilleurs to 50t max?

I used mine with a 52/42 double. I can't imagine that 53 would be a
problem.

2. Is this the only or latest model of Suntour with cable vs. spring
action from big sprocket?

There was a Suntour XC (not XC Pro, not XC Comp, not XC9000, just XC)
that was reverse-action, too, designed for triples with a 48-ish big
ring, and it didn't require the housing. Very popular among the
touring crowd.

Since I rarely if ever (now in flatlands) use my granny gear, it also
seems better to have it aligned
to larger sprocket vs the one I never or rarely use.

Braggart.

And the small ring on the double isn't called a Granny. A Granny is
the smallest ring on a triple. On a double, it's just a small ring.



And I think there are sealed cable ferrules so that may be a solution
for the rain entry in housing - ?

There are now, but there weren't when the derailleur was made thirty
years ago. Nor was there plastic housing liner back then.

Fantastic information Hank. And I'm getting full fenders in mail now.
After reading Sheldon's site several times, it helped give me
guidlines to achieve
and fenders was one he stressed to prevent rain damage to drive
components.
So that will help lower housing corrosion problem as well.

And when LBS did change out my front der cable when my plastic Simplex
rotted, the
cable was rusty after 35 years. So now I know why!


Thank You Sir,
Phil Bailey

Someone asked:

How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front
Derailleur?

Spirt seems like a superior design concept, given one has the extra
cable stop/housing. And front derailleurs seem primitive any way, so
is there significantly different better materials that would make the
newer Tiagra a superior choice over the Spirt? It doesn not look like
many older cast materials, so its hard to visually note material
differences from pictures, like with the rear derailleur differences.

There's no important difference in materials, but the shape of the
front derailer cages on modern front derailers is much more
sophisticated, probably thanks to computer analysis of the shifting
process.

Hank Wirtz wrote:

I'd call the extra housing a weakness - more housing means more
friction. Especially down in that area, where water off the front
wheel showers the Bottom Bracket and one end of the housing, and the
other end of the housing is pointing straight up, so it's prone to
collecting water and rusting.

Yes, but that type of routing was pretty much universal when the Spirt
was a current model.

Nonetheless, the biggest difference you'd notice is that the Spirt is
reverse-action; i.e. Big ring normal. The Tiagra also has a wider cage
to accommodate front indexing. That means more lever throw to make
your shift, but also less trimming

I'm not convinced that's true, since the Spirt was made back in the
days of wiiiiide chains with protruding rivets, made for 5-speed
clusters.

Otherwise, on a double crank, FDs are about as simple as things get.
If you were running a triple, I'd say modern is definitely better,
with ramps on the cage matched to a range of ring sizes to push the
chain off with less overshifting needed.

I had a Spirt on my first 10-speed and I really liked the reverse
action. Pull either lever towards you, get an easier gear. It seems to
make more sense to have it on the front than on the rear (Rapid-rise)
so that it's cable, rather than spring, giving you you lower gears.

That's true on the front, but low-normal rears are actually superior
in downshift reliability/performance.

The thing with having both shifters operate in the same direction
(high/low) is a mixed blessing.

Back in the day, with down-tube shifters, the traditional
configuration made for easier double shifting, since you would move
both levers in the same direction to do a double shift.

Sheldon "Spirt" Brown

On Feb 19, 5:47 pm, "Sheldon Brown" wrote:
Someone asked:

How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front
Derailleur?

Spirt seems like a superior design concept, given one has the extra
cable stop/housing. And front derailleurs seem primitive any way, so
is there significantly different better materials that would make the
newer Tiagra a superior choice over the Spirt? It doesn not look like
many older cast materials, so its hard to visually note material
differences from pictures, like with the rear derailleur differences.

There's no important difference in materials, but the shape of the
front derailer cages on modern front derailers is much more
sophisticated, probably thanks to computer analysis of the shifting
process.

Hank Wirtz wrote:
I'd call the extra housing a weakness - more housing means more
friction. Especially down in that area, where water off the front
wheel showers the Bottom Bracket and one end of the housing, and the
other end of the housing is pointing straight up, so it's prone to
collecting water and rusting.

Yes, but that type of routing was pretty much universal when the Spirt
was a current model.

Nonetheless, the biggest difference you'd notice is that the Spirt is
reverse-action; i.e. Big ring normal. The Tiagra also has a wider cage
to accommodate front indexing. That means more lever throw to make
your shift, but also less trimming

I'm not convinced that's true, since the Spirt was made back in the
days of wiiiiide chains with protruding rivets, made for 5-speed
clusters.

Otherwise, on a double crank, FDs are about as simple as things get.
If you were running a triple, I'd say modern is definitely better,
with ramps on the cage matched to a range of ring sizes to push the
chain off with less overshifting needed.

I had a Spirt on my first 10-speed and I really liked the reverse
action. Pull either lever towards you, get an easier gear. It seems to
make more sense to have it on the front than on the rear (Rapid-rise)
so that it's cable, rather than spring, giving you you lower gears.

That's true on the front, but low-normal rears are actually superior
in downshift reliability/performance.

The thing with having both shifters operate in the same direction
(high/low) is a mixed blessing.

Back in the day, with down-tube shifters, the traditional
configuration made for easier double shifting, since you would move
both levers in the same direction to do a double shift.

Sheldon "Spirt" Brown

Thanks Sheldon!

It looks like you are indicating features should average out about the
same, giving benefit of the doubt to newer designs. Well I'll compare
them when it arrives with my computer aided bifocals, lol. I won't
throw my Tiagra away for sure, but Spirt seemed like a good likely
combo for my Suntour Power ratchet shifter which will always be on
crank der forever even 'if' get ergo8 for rear der and both brake
levers. What I'm looking for is the height of crank friction shifting
technology to work with my ratchet shifters and DA crank. I did look
at XC front der, but 'looked like' were for 3 crank gears, 31.8mm
frames, and may have had limit of 50t max crank. Spirts seem fine
enough and safer at this point.

It will be an education anyway. Several people have said they still
use Spirts so it has benefits for some educated users anyway. It
really is hard to jump 36 years in technology without experiencing
some of the fruits of the industry, especially when others have done
the research and all I have to do it try them out. This board has
offered invaluable guidance in parts selection, which is quite a task.


Thanks,
Phil Bailey

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:47:05 -0800, Sheldon Brown wrote:

That's true on the front, but low-normal rears are actually superior
in downshift reliability/performance.

The thing with having both shifters operate in the same direction
(high/low) is a mixed blessing.

Back in the day, with down-tube shifters, the traditional
configuration made for easier double shifting, since you would move
both levers in the same direction to do a double shift.

Do you think this is the reason for it? I'm curious -- after all, either
direction works well enough at either end, so the founding fathers of
bikedom could have chosen any configuration. I've ridden old Suntour
bikes and Rapid Rise Shimano gear -- it all works.

Matt O.

Phil Bailey wrote:

It looks like you are indicating features should average out about the
same, giving benefit of the doubt to newer designs.

Back in the day, the Spirt was something of a pain because of its
narrow cage, which required a fair amount of trimming as you shift the
rear.

My good friend John Allen even made a special gadget that connected
the front and rear cables under the down tube, so that his Spirt would
trim automatically as the rear cable moved up and down. I recall
noticing this the first time I met him, when he came into the old
Bicycle Repair Collective in Cambridge, sometime in the early '70s.

The narrow cage was a liability back in the 5-speed era, with wide
chains that had protruding pins. However this becomes a virtue with
modern narrow chains, so it will probably work just fine for you as
long as you keep that bight of cable housing clean and free running.

Sheldon "Spirtualist" Brown
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