Braking while turning

One thing I have noticed is how differently bicycles handle when the rear
brake is applied compared to the front brake.

While braking with the front wheel and turning, the rear wheel naturally
swings around follows through the turn. The steering feels the same as if
the brake wasn't applied.

When the rear brake is applied while turning it feels like a force is
pulling rear tire in a straight line backwards causing it to not want to
swing around and follow the path of the front tire. The bike plows though
the turn. Even when the bike is traveling in a straight line the bike
doesn't feel nearly as controllable as it would with the front brake is
applied.

Is there a physics explanation for this? Even the seasoned riders at the
bike shop give me a wierd look when I tell them I hardly ever use the rear
brake.
--
----

Is there a physics explanation for this? Even the seasoned riders at the
bike shop give me a wierd look when I tell them I hardly ever use the rear
brake.

FWIW, if you lose traction on the front in a turn, it is very likely you
will crash. If you lose traction on the rear in a turn, it is usually
recoverable unless your lean angle is extreme.

Braking the rear in a turn may cause the rear to skip causing the effects
you mentioned. But when you brake with the front, weight is pushed forward
onto the front wheel and giving it heavier steering, etc.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 02:16:20 +0000, Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

Is there a physics explanation for this? Even the seasoned riders at
the bike shop give me a wierd look when I tell them I hardly ever use
the rear brake.

You are doing it right, by the way.

FWIW, if you lose traction on the front in a turn, it is very likely you
will crash. If you lose traction on the rear in a turn, it is usually
recoverable unless your lean angle is extreme.

Yes, if you lose traction on the front in a turn, you will go
down. But you will usually go down if you skid the rear as well, and it
is much, much easier to skid the rear in any circumstances. In good
weather on a good road, it is impossible to skid the front.

Braking the rear in a turn may cause the rear to skip causing the effects
you mentioned. But when you brake with the front, weight is pushed
forward onto the front wheel and giving it heavier steering, etc.

Any braking of either wheel will shift the weight distribution
forward. That is why the rear wheel skids so easily when you apply the
rear brake, since the amount of your weight on the rear can go to near 0.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win you're
_`\(,_ | still a rat. --Lilly Tomlin
(_)/ (_) |

"g.daniels" wrote in message
om...
WE ARE LOOKING FOR THE LAB'S COMPUTER PRINTOUTS GENERATED BY THE LAB
VEHICLE!!
this inorder! to! pin down the language into numbers. then we can
conceptualize from the other side.
anybody who goes reaaaaalllly deeeeeep into the corners care to
cawment???

LOL - reading this was just too much. Not to be condescending, but is
English your first language?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 23:17:12 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
wrote:

Is there a physics explanation for this? Even the seasoned riders at
the bike shop give me a wierd look when I tell them I hardly ever use
the rear brake.

You are doing it right, by the way.

Yes, if you lose traction on the front in a turn, you will go
down. But you will usually go down if you skid the rear as well, and it

It's an important discussion, I don't mean to be flippant. But I find
there is more to worry about than skidding with the front. If, for
example, a stone large enough to lift the wheel off the ground is hit,
the front wheel will stop. When it hits the ground again, an end over
is a given. So on turns on steep grades coming out of hills like in
Malibu where rocks are prevalent, I am very reluctant to use the front
brake.

is much, much easier to skid the rear in any circumstances. In good
weather on a good road, it is impossible to skid the front.

Good road, good weather. But even then, that lone stone. I just see
too many. I practice rear wheel skids actually to reduce trouble, but
yes, they can be nasty too, although never has one brought me down
(all handful of them).

Doug

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" wrote:

FWIW, if you lose traction on the front in a turn, it is very likely you
will crash.

Yes, but it will always be a lowside. Because of the forward weight
shift, front wheel traction increases as the brake is applied. This
effect permits more braking while steering than most folks think
possible-- provided the tires are adequate to the task.

If you lose traction on the rear in a turn, it is usually
recoverable unless your lean angle is extreme.

In my experience, if you go into a turn hot enough, or downhill
enough, to have to brake while turning, a slip at either end will put
you on the ground. In those circumstances, it is much easier to lose
the rear. Furthermore, slipping the rear can cause a highside,
flinging you into the land of broken clavicles.

Chalo Colina

wrote in message
...
One thing I have noticed is how differently bicycles handle when the rear
brake is applied compared to the front brake.

While braking with the front wheel and turning, the rear wheel naturally
swings around follows through the turn. The steering feels the same as if
the brake wasn't applied.

When the rear brake is applied while turning it feels like a force is
pulling rear tire in a straight line backwards causing it to not want to
swing around and follow the path of the front tire. The bike plows though
the turn. Even when the bike is traveling in a straight line the bike
doesn't feel nearly as controllable as it would with the front brake is
applied.

Is there a physics explanation for this? Even the seasoned riders at the
bike shop give me a wierd look when I tell them I hardly ever use the rear
brake.


We've discussed that here before and you're right. Note Sheldon's comments
on applying the rear brake of a tandem with nobody in back.

For a more dramatic example, just increase the speed and vehicle weight. Try
tapping the brakes during an aggressive corner in a rear engine car. You'll
only try that once!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

the rear. Furthermore, slipping the rear can cause a highside,
flinging you into the land of broken clavicles.

Really now? In my experience, highsides have been limited to the domain of
motorcycles, where the speeds of the bikes and massive grips of the tires
have the potential to cause a highside.

Uh... wait. I recall highsiding on my MTB commuter once. I landed on my
forearms, so nothing broken. I now have a dolphin-shaped scar on my arm.
Nevermind what I said.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Just how hard are you applying the rear brake? If it feels like your
rear wheel is going straight while the rest of the bike is going through
a turn, you're skidding the rear wheel. And yes, there is a "physics"
reason for this. It's called inertia. An object in motion tends to move
in a straight line unless acted upon by another force. (sic.)

If your front wheel slides out, it too will go in a straight line. With
disastrous results. Actually, the best thing is not to brake at all in a
turn, Do all your braking before.

The tires have a limited amount of "grip" on the pavement, any that's
diverted towards slowing the bike down is being taken away from the
amount holding it in a curved path.

If you must apply brakes in a turn, do so very gently, and it's best, in
this case, to favor the rear. If that gives away, you have a much better
chance of riding it out.

May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!
Chris

Chris'Z Corner
"The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Good road, good weather. But even
then, that lone stone. I just see too
many. I practice rear wheel skids
actually to reduce trouble, but yes, they
can be nasty too, although never has one
brought me down (all handful of them).

Doug

A stone, sand, water, oil, tar (just as Beloki).

May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!
Chris

Chris'Z Corner
"The Website for the Common Bicyclist":
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner