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The Great Don Quijote of RBM!



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 3rd 07, 02:29 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,uk.rec.cycling
Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 268
Default The Great Don Quijote of RBM!

Keats WHO? wrote:
"donquijote1954" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 1, 8:44 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" wrote:


Why does Google add the back-slashes adjacent to the quote marks?

Why doesn't Google honor the signature separator?

The world wonders.

Who needs Usama bin Laden when we have promoters of second class
citizenship for cyclists?

What we need is SHOWERS and BIKE LOCKERS at work so cycle commuting is
practical. I propose a tax on employee parking spaces that could be
offset by adding REAL cyclist friendly facilities.

OK, OK, that makes sense. Nobody should say that bikers stink.

But we also need lanes for bikes only. Or if not we just restrict cars
like they did in London and Italy --for one day. No car no problem!

Italian cities ban cars from streets
Independent, The (London), Jan 29, 2007
ROME Cars and motor scooters were banned in Rome, Milan and other
Italian cities yesterday, leaving residents to walk, ride bikes or use
public transport. The ban, lasting most of the day, was put in place
to lower pollution levels. Other cities banning cars were Brescia,
Como and Varese in the Lombardy region. The ban is often implemented
during winter.



No offense intended (hehe) donquijote1954, but I think you've been smoking
some of Johnny Sunset's hemp bike seat cover.


Nope, all three are intact.

What would you think about a stiff graduated luxury tax on bicycles costing
over $150.00 (US) and bicycle accessories to help pay for the things you
demand? Why should my eighty year old mother, who has trouble paying for
her prescription drugs, need to help pay for your shower and locker located
in a business somewhere?...


The railroads were given free land by the federal government, barges and
riverboats do not pay the full costs of locks and dredging, airports and
air traffic control are subsided by the federal government, fuel taxes,
licensing fees and tolls do not pay the full cost of the roadways (in
the U.S.). Why should cyclists be singled out, especially where there is
an externality BENEFIT to society if more people commute by bicycle?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Ads
  #12  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:48 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,uk.rec.cycling
Keats
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 184
Default The Great Don Quijote of RBM!


"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" wrote in message
.. .
Keats WHO? wrote:
What would you think about a stiff graduated luxury tax on bicycles
costing over $150.00 (US) and bicycle accessories to help pay for the
things you demand? Why should my eighty year old mother, who has trouble
paying for her prescription drugs, need to help pay for your shower and
locker located in a business somewhere?...


The railroads were given free land by the federal government, barges and
riverboats do not pay the full costs of locks and dredging, airports and
air traffic control are subsided by the federal government, fuel taxes,
licensing fees and tolls do not pay the full cost of the roadways (in the
U.S.). Why should cyclists be singled out, especially where there is an
externality BENEFIT to society if more people commute by bicycle?

--


I take it you don't like the idea of the wealthiest Americans who possess
multiple bicycles costing $3000, $5,000, and even $7,000.00 (USA) and up
having to pay a luxury tax on these bikes to offset a small portion of the
cost of all the freebies you want. Yeah, I know the routine, once upon a
time someone got something from the government without paying for it so the
things you want should be paid for by someone else too. And so it goes.


  #13  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:56 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,uk.rec.cycling
Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 268
Default The Great Don Quijote of RBM!

Keats wrote:
"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" wrote in message
.. .
Keats WHO? wrote:
What would you think about a stiff graduated luxury tax on bicycles
costing over $150.00 (US) and bicycle accessories to help pay for the
things you demand? Why should my eighty year old mother, who has trouble
paying for her prescription drugs, need to help pay for your shower and
locker located in a business somewhere?...

The railroads were given free land by the federal government, barges and
riverboats do not pay the full costs of locks and dredging, airports and
air traffic control are subsided by the federal government, fuel taxes,
licensing fees and tolls do not pay the full cost of the roadways (in the
U.S.). Why should cyclists be singled out, especially where there is an
externality BENEFIT to society if more people commute by bicycle?

--


I take it you don't like the idea of the wealthiest Americans who possess
multiple bicycles costing $3000, $5,000, and even $7,000.00 (USA) and up
having to pay a luxury tax on these bikes to offset a small portion of the
cost of all the freebies you want. Yeah, I know the routine, once upon a
time someone got something from the government without paying for it so the
things you want should be paid for by someone else too. And so it goes.


The governments (federal, state and local) in the U.S. (and many other
countries) use taxes to discourage behavior and tax breaks to encourage
behavior. I am merely recommending the proper use of this common policy
tool.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #14  
Old August 3rd 07, 10:39 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,uk.rec.cycling
Jeff Grippe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 277
Default The Great Don Quijote of RBM!

The governments (federal, state and local) in the U.S. (and many other
countries) use taxes to discourage behavior and tax breaks to encourage
behavior. I am merely recommending the proper use of this common policy
tool.


Wow! A real discussion with substance.

Part of the problem is that taxes (and tax breaks) are used for too many
things.

Some taxes are obviously used to fund the basic operations of government and
the services it provides.

Other taxes are used to specifically discourage behavior such as cigarette.

Some tax breaks are used to encourage behavior.

The problem is that all of these things get jumbled up. The bean counters
come to rely on the revenue generated by the "sin taxes" and want to keep
the breaks to a minimum so that they can balance the books. You can say
something like "We are going to tax all X's in order to provide Y's" (cars
for bike lanes, etc.) but the X's are going to complain and the Y's are
going to view what they've got as an entitlement. You will get the X lobby
fighting for the repeal of the tax and the Y lobby insisting that their
service must continue to be provided. The people whose job it is to make the
budge work try to please as many as possible (being part of a political
system) but ultimately the stronger lobby wins.

As liberal as I am, I can see some of the arguements for smaller government.
Government is a grossly inefficient thing. The problem is that there are
gaps a mile wide in what the free market will provide in terms of basic
human services. If food, clothing, shelter, education, and health care are
basic human rights, then the free market will not, of its own accord,
provide a basic level of these things to everyone. Why should it?
Corporations are supposed to make profits not provide basic human services.
It took workers organizing for companies to provide good working conditions,
shorter hours, higher pay, benefits, etc.

The revolution isn't coming, however. So the system that we've got is one in
which those who can push hardest might be able to get what they want. You
want lockers and showers? Find a way to deliver a large block of votes and
you might get them. Or find a philanthropist who believes in lockers and
showers and get a foundation started. Be careful, however. Foundations can
be almost as inefficient as governments.

Jeff


  #15  
Old August 3rd 07, 12:49 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,uk.rec.cycling
Keats
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 184
Default The Great Don Quijote of RBM!


"Jeff Grippe" wrote in message
...
The governments (federal, state and local) in the U.S. (and many other
countries) use taxes to discourage behavior and tax breaks to encourage
behavior. I am merely recommending the proper use of this common policy
tool.


Wow! A real discussion with substance.

Part of the problem is that taxes (and tax breaks) are used for too many
things.

Some taxes are obviously used to fund the basic operations of government
and the services it provides.

Other taxes are used to specifically discourage behavior such as
cigarette.

Some tax breaks are used to encourage behavior.

The problem is that all of these things get jumbled up. The bean counters
come to rely on the revenue generated by the "sin taxes" and want to keep
the breaks to a minimum so that they can balance the books. You can say
something like "We are going to tax all X's in order to provide Y's" (cars
for bike lanes, etc.) but the X's are going to complain and the Y's are
going to view what they've got as an entitlement. You will get the X lobby
fighting for the repeal of the tax and the Y lobby insisting that their
service must continue to be provided. The people whose job it is to make
the budge work try to please as many as possible (being part of a
political system) but ultimately the stronger lobby wins.

As liberal as I am, I can see some of the arguements for smaller
government. Government is a grossly inefficient thing. The problem is that
there are gaps a mile wide in what the free market will provide in terms
of basic human services. If food, clothing, shelter, education, and health
care are basic human rights, then the free market will not, of its own
accord, provide a basic level of these things to everyone. Why should it?
Corporations are supposed to make profits not provide basic human
services. It took workers organizing for companies to provide good working
conditions, shorter hours, higher pay, benefits, etc.

The revolution isn't coming, however. So the system that we've got is one
in which those who can push hardest might be able to get what they want.
You want lockers and showers? Find a way to deliver a large block of votes
and you might get them. Or find a philanthropist who believes in lockers
and showers and get a foundation started. Be careful, however. Foundations
can be almost as inefficient as governments.

Jeff


The idea of entitlements knows no limits. Therefore the inefficient use of
tax money knows no practical limits other than the amount of money in the
government coffers at any given time. Once citizens discovered they could
vote themselves money out of the public weal entitlements were off and
running to the point that someone who doesn't reach the work place in an air
conditioned car wants the government to force the installation of a shower
and locker on private property for their private use. The cost is not only
the actual cost, but is also the cost of lost opportunity for a better and
more efficient use of this money.

How did anyone on this planet survive for those millions of years before the
invention of under arm deodorant and automobile air conditioners? Wouldn't
they too seem to be a basic human right, Jeff?


  #16  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:40 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,uk.rec.cycling
donquijote1954
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,851
Default The Great Don Quijote of RBM!

On Aug 2, 10:48 pm, "Keats" wrote:
"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" wrote in s.com...

Keats WHO? wrote:
What would you think about a stiff graduated luxury tax on bicycles
costing over $150.00 (US) and bicycle accessories to help pay for the
things you demand? Why should my eighty year old mother, who has trouble
paying for her prescription drugs, need to help pay for your shower and
locker located in a business somewhere?...


The railroads were given free land by the federal government, barges and
riverboats do not pay the full costs of locks and dredging, airports and
air traffic control are subsided by the federal government, fuel taxes,
licensing fees and tolls do not pay the full cost of the roadways (in the
U.S.). Why should cyclists be singled out, especially where there is an
externality BENEFIT to society if more people commute by bicycle?


--


I take it you don't like the idea of the wealthiest Americans who possess
multiple bicycles costing $3000, $5,000, and even $7,000.00 (USA) and up
having to pay a luxury tax on these bikes to offset a small portion of the
cost of all the freebies you want. Yeah, I know the routine, once upon a
time someone got something from the government without paying for it so the
things you want should be paid for by someone else too. And so it goes.


That bicycling remains an elitist hobby is the damned fault of a
system that doesn't know how to put together democracy and bicycles.
That we see so many SUVs out there, shows that we live in an elitist
society, where those at the bottom are f...d.

We need someone like...

"As mayor of Bogota, Colombia, Enrique Penalosa accomplished
remarkable changes of monumental proportions for the people of his
country in just three years.

Peñalosa changed the way Bogota treated its non-driving citizens by
restricting automobile use and instituting a bus rapid transit system
which now carries a 1/2 million residents daily. Among other
improvements: he widened and rebuilt sidewalks, created grand public
spaces, and implemented over one hundred miles of bicycle paths."

18 Comments (leave a comment)
"Enrique Penalosa is GOD!"

Comment by James L. - February 27, 2007 @ 11:54 pm | Link

"OMG! Please clone Mr. Penalosa and send the copies everywhere!"

Comment by pb - February 28, 2007 @ 3:08 pm | Link

"Viva Senor Penalosa. He truly is a visionary, and one who has
actually seen his dreams become reality!"

Comment by Steve K. - March 1, 2007 @ 11:13 pm | Link

"Bring Mr. Penalosa to Cleveland please! Seriously, how can you get a
hold off him? Is there any way?"

Comment by GaryE - March 2, 2007 @ 3:19 am | Link

"Another great example of the power of possibility and creativity.
Just because it had never been done before doesn't mean it couldn't be
done!"

Comment by Clarissa - March 2, 2007 @ 3:04 pm | Link

http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/...penalosa-long/

  #17  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:43 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,uk.rec.cycling
donquijote1954
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,851
Default The Great Don Quijote of RBM!

On Aug 2, 10:56 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
wrote:
Keats wrote:
"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" wrote in message
. ..
Keats WHO? wrote:
What would you think about a stiff graduated luxury tax on bicycles
costing over $150.00 (US) and bicycle accessories to help pay for the
things you demand? Why should my eighty year old mother, who has trouble
paying for her prescription drugs, need to help pay for your shower and
locker located in a business somewhere?...
The railroads were given free land by the federal government, barges and
riverboats do not pay the full costs of locks and dredging, airports and
air traffic control are subsided by the federal government, fuel taxes,
licensing fees and tolls do not pay the full cost of the roadways (in the
U.S.). Why should cyclists be singled out, especially where there is an
externality BENEFIT to society if more people commute by bicycle?


--


I take it you don't like the idea of the wealthiest Americans who possess
multiple bicycles costing $3000, $5,000, and even $7,000.00 (USA) and up
having to pay a luxury tax on these bikes to offset a small portion of the
cost of all the freebies you want. Yeah, I know the routine, once upon a
time someone got something from the government without paying for it so the
things you want should be paid for by someone else too. And so it goes.


The governments (federal, state and local) in the U.S. (and many other
countries) use taxes to discourage behavior and tax breaks to encourage
behavior. I am merely recommending the proper use of this common policy
tool.


The use it here too! Just that they give tax breaks and all kinds of
facilities to those at the top. Have you noticed that 99% fo the bike
paths are concentrated where the big people live?

  #18  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:52 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,uk.rec.cycling
donquijote1954
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,851
Default The Great Don Quijote of RBM!

On Aug 3, 5:39 am, "Jeff Grippe" wrote:
The governments (federal, state and local) in the U.S. (and many other
countries) use taxes to discourage behavior and tax breaks to encourage
behavior. I am merely recommending the proper use of this common policy
tool.


Wow! A real discussion with substance.

Part of the problem is that taxes (and tax breaks) are used for too many
things.

Some taxes are obviously used to fund the basic operations of government and
the services it provides.

Other taxes are used to specifically discourage behavior such as cigarette.

Some tax breaks are used to encourage behavior.

The problem is that all of these things get jumbled up. The bean counters
come to rely on the revenue generated by the "sin taxes" and want to keep
the breaks to a minimum so that they can balance the books.


But most civilized countries consider wasting gas a sin, not a sign of
patriotism. Maybe they believe that being dependent on foreign oil is
a dangerous idea, thus they tax gas to pay for public transportation
and bike facilities... Pretty stupid, aren't they?

The revolution isn't coming, however.


Sorry, I thought it was coming soon...

http://atom.smasher.org/streetparty/...ution%21& l4=

Well, maybe before Armageddon anyway.

  #19  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:55 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,uk.rec.cycling
Jeff Grippe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 277
Default The Great Don Quijote of RBM!


"Keats" wrote in message
. ..

"Jeff Grippe" wrote in message
...
The governments (federal, state and local) in the U.S. (and many other
countries) use taxes to discourage behavior and tax breaks to encourage
behavior. I am merely recommending the proper use of this common policy
tool.


Wow! A real discussion with substance.

Part of the problem is that taxes (and tax breaks) are used for too many
things.

Some taxes are obviously used to fund the basic operations of government
and the services it provides.

Other taxes are used to specifically discourage behavior such as
cigarette.

Some tax breaks are used to encourage behavior.

The problem is that all of these things get jumbled up. The bean counters
come to rely on the revenue generated by the "sin taxes" and want to keep
the breaks to a minimum so that they can balance the books. You can say
something like "We are going to tax all X's in order to provide Y's"
(cars for bike lanes, etc.) but the X's are going to complain and the Y's
are going to view what they've got as an entitlement. You will get the X
lobby fighting for the repeal of the tax and the Y lobby insisting that
their service must continue to be provided. The people whose job it is to
make the budge work try to please as many as possible (being part of a
political system) but ultimately the stronger lobby wins.

As liberal as I am, I can see some of the arguements for smaller
government. Government is a grossly inefficient thing. The problem is
that there are gaps a mile wide in what the free market will provide in
terms of basic human services. If food, clothing, shelter, education, and
health care are basic human rights, then the free market will not, of its
own accord, provide a basic level of these things to everyone. Why should
it? Corporations are supposed to make profits not provide basic human
services. It took workers organizing for companies to provide good
working conditions, shorter hours, higher pay, benefits, etc.

The revolution isn't coming, however. So the system that we've got is one
in which those who can push hardest might be able to get what they want.
You want lockers and showers? Find a way to deliver a large block of
votes and you might get them. Or find a philanthropist who believes in
lockers and showers and get a foundation started. Be careful, however.
Foundations can be almost as inefficient as governments.

Jeff


The idea of entitlements knows no limits. Therefore the inefficient use
of tax money knows no practical limits other than the amount of money in
the government coffers at any given time. Once citizens discovered they
could vote themselves money out of the public weal entitlements were off
and running to the point that someone who doesn't reach the work place in
an air conditioned car wants the government to force the installation of a
shower and locker on private property for their private use. The cost is
not only the actual cost, but is also the cost of lost opportunity for a
better and more efficient use of this money.

How did anyone on this planet survive for those millions of years before
the invention of under arm deodorant and automobile air conditioners?
Wouldn't they too seem to be a basic human right, Jeff?


Here's the problem with this discussion. We can talk fantasy or reality.
Fantasy is always great because it bypasses reality. So here goes:

Fantasy:

Define what are basic human rights (food, shelter, etc) and what functions
we think are best handled by the government (waging war, international
affairs, etc.). Everything else is left to the free market. I love this idea
but it is alas a fantasy.

Reality:

We are part of a system that is essentially political. The system attempts
to provide what those in power have become convinced are basic human rights
and affairs of govermment. The system also allows a free market unless those
in power decide that certain markets should be entirely free. Laws can even
be amended on a one time basis such as Disney getting a copyright extension
a few years back.

In addition to politics, the system also has institutions that are
"entrenched" and have a life of their own. While this is still politics, the
root run deep.

If you can coax the political will for lockers and showers, and maintain it,
then lockers and showers you shall have.

Here in NYC there is a plan in place to have bike lanes that run through all
five boroughs.

In White Plains, where I live, they couldn't get the votes for bike lanes.
The compromise was putting up signs that say "Bike Route". Some of these
signs are in the absolute worst place to cycle. I was on the "Bike Route"
when I got hit and sustained an injury which essentially ended my cycling.



  #20  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:57 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,uk.rec.cycling
donquijote1954
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,851
Default The Great Don Quijote of RBM!

On Aug 3, 7:49 am, "Keats" wrote:

How did anyone on this planet survive for those millions of years before the
invention of under arm deodorant and automobile air conditioners? Wouldn't
they too seem to be a basic human right, Jeff?-


I don't know about those, but the right to ride a bike in safety
should be a human right. Or we want the bicycle people to go out on
the road and paint bike lanes, install bike racks at shops and showers
at work? It would be funny...

 




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