Am I missing something on wheels?

On Apr 12, 12:24*am, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 11, 10:34*am, Chalo wrote:



Cicero Venatio wrote:

On my "I miss Jobst" I got a lot of smirking comments that were hard to
decipher. *Since I can't reply to all of them I started a new post. *To
be more specific my Open Pros are 32 spokes with Shimano ultegra hubs..
I paid around $90-100 for a front wheel, and $110-120 for a rear wheel,
on the sets I purchased. *

Full retail on an Open Pro at my shop at today's prices is $116.
That's just plain old normal markup-- the kind that buys you a tube
for $4, an axle kit for $7, or a coaster brake hub for $17. *Or an
Alex R390 socketed rim for $45.

If you but some kind of OEM surplus or overruns that happen to get you
some Open Pro wheels for the price of wheels with reasonably priced
rims, fine. *You got lucky-- especially if the wheels were well built
when you got them.

But there are plenty of rims that don't have the typical Mavic
problems of cracking, noises, and a specified tension limit that makes
it difficult to keep a highly dished wheel in good condition, and that
cost a whole whopping lot less than a Mavic rim anyway.

If folks crack wise about Mavic rims, it's because the manufacturer is
audacious enough to price them as if there were something very special
about them, when there isn't. *On the plus side, they are nicely flat
and round, which makes them easy to build with. *On the minus side,
they are more likely to crack or tick than most other rims (just by
odds; they don't all do this). *And since you can't lace them as tight
as other comparable rims, they can't carry as large a load reliably,
for any given weight of rim.

I'm surprised by the recommended tension of 70-90kgf which will not
keep an Open Pro straight on my bike (200lb rider).

It should, I'm certainly within those guidlines using 16swg spokes on
my Open4CD's x 32 and made 14st and rode the wheels off-road, probably
how I dented the rim, and they stayed straight.

*I run them at
110-120 kgf with no thread lock, and they do fine -- and actually take
quite a beating on my cross bike. I could probably run them lower with
thread lock, but I've been resisting that change. *When I use stick-em
on spokes, it always makes retruing a bitch, but I have not used
magical linseed oil, and maybe that is the trick. -- Jay Beattie.

The point of the linseed is it allows retensioning after riding the
wheel(s) and still locks, it's not for truing up a poorly consrtucted
wheel 6 months on. The bond will then be brken and the holding power
much reduced unless refreshed. It's not something I've needed to do
but I have had to re-apply oil where for some reason it has failed.
Degreasing the new spoke threads seems to have eliminated the rare
linseed failure. This could apply to any threadlock.

On Apr 11, 3:51*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Apr 11, 1:35*pm, Cicero Venatio wrote:

On my "I miss Jobst" I got a lot of smirking comments that were hard to
decipher. *Since I can't reply to all of them I started a new post. *To
be more specific my Open Pros are 32 spokes with Shimano ultegra hubs.
I paid around $90-100 for a front wheel, and $110-120 for a rear wheel,
on the sets I purchased. *Now if I got a lot of mystique with my
purchase I was unaware of that. *These wheels were pre-built with only
minor truing necessary on my part. *Now if you folk are finding
pre-built wheels that are as good as the OP's for cheaper, I'd sure like
to know about it. *All I see when I'm shopping around on-line for wheels
are wheels that cost around $200, with not enough spokes. *Please
enlighten me.

You don't need 32 spokes, even 28 spokes are more than enough in a
well built tension spoked wheel, the extra are insurance. *20 up front
and 24 in the back are enough when used with systems which
straightline the spokes. *This can be bought as a fancy factory
wheelset or can be done by a builder using the well known traditional
materials and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.
The problem is you don't have the insurance of the extra spokes should
a badger get caught in your wheel and takke out a spoke, the wheel
will fail. *The 28, 32 and 36 can be ridden home. *I rode a 34 spoked
wheel for two months withot worrying about it.

and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.
You caught my curiosity w/ that. Would you care to elaborate?
Thanks, JD

jay wrote:

thirty-six wrote:

You don't need 32 spokes, even 28 spokes are more than enough in a
well built tension spoked wheel, the extra are insurance. *20 up front
and 24 in the back are enough when used with systems which
straightline the spokes. *This can be bought as a fancy factory
wheelset or can be done by a builder using the well known traditional
materials and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.
The problem is you don't have the insurance of the extra spokes should
a badger get caught in your wheel and takke out a spoke, the wheel
will fail. *The 28, 32 and 36 can be ridden home. *I rode a 34 spoked
wheel for two months withot worrying about it.
and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.

You caught my curiosity w/ that. Would you care to elaborate?

Trevor lives on Planet Wherever, where things work differently than
they do on Earth. On Planet Wherever, they eat street drugs and they
drink linseed oil spiked with heavy metal additives.

The gravitational force on Planet Wherever is almost certainly much
lower than it is on Earth, because the people there can get away with
doing a lot of cockamamie bull**** to their bike wheels that would
render Earth bike wheels unusable.

Chalo

On Apr 15, 1:59*am, jay wrote:
On Apr 11, 3:51*pm, thirty-six wrote:



On Apr 11, 1:35*pm, Cicero Venatio wrote:

On my "I miss Jobst" I got a lot of smirking comments that were hard to
decipher. *Since I can't reply to all of them I started a new post. *To
be more specific my Open Pros are 32 spokes with Shimano ultegra hubs..
I paid around $90-100 for a front wheel, and $110-120 for a rear wheel,
on the sets I purchased. *Now if I got a lot of mystique with my
purchase I was unaware of that. *These wheels were pre-built with only
minor truing necessary on my part. *Now if you folk are finding
pre-built wheels that are as good as the OP's for cheaper, I'd sure like
to know about it. *All I see when I'm shopping around on-line for wheels
are wheels that cost around $200, with not enough spokes. *Please
enlighten me.

You don't need 32 spokes, even 28 spokes are more than enough in a
well built tension spoked wheel, the extra are insurance. *20 up front
and 24 in the back are enough when used with systems which
straightline the spokes. *This can be bought as a fancy factory
wheelset or can be done by a builder using the well known traditional
materials and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.
The problem is you don't have the insurance of the extra spokes should
a badger get caught in your wheel and takke out a spoke, the wheel
will fail. *The 28, 32 and 36 can be ridden home. *I rode a 34 spoked
wheel for two months withot worrying about it.
and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.

You caught my curiosity w/ that. Would you care to elaborate?
Thanks, JD

For entry level racing, yes stick to what are essentially training
wheels unless there is particular importance to the race. Pure racing
wheels though can be lower count, assuming there is someone to haul
you out of the ditch should you have a bad fall. The manipulation of
the spokes of which I speak is that of creating elbows so as to
attatch to the hub without making the sweeping bends in the spokes
which exist in the typical economy wheel. The simplest procedure is
to use two small flat cone spanners to 'twist' the spokes around each
other. It's only suficient to create a small and permanent 10deg bend
at the spokke crossing. This greatly improves wheel stability to such
an extent that I have ridden a wheel with the right hand spokes
obscured by a narrow rim without suffering the usual bending during
cornering.

Once the wheel is constructed with elbows at the crossings it becomes
apparent that spoke tension can be much reduced and dialled in for
correct shock absorbtion for the rider. The wheels may also be tied
and soldered and when a front wheel is double tied and soldered with
the additional elbows, the wheel tracking ability is so superior, it
makes me wonder whether it should be a requirement in bunch racing. I
believe it would prevent many falls and crashes particularly at entry
level.

On Apr 15, 2:37*am, Chalo wrote:
jay wrote:

thirty-six wrote:

You don't need 32 spokes, even 28 spokes are more than enough in a
well built tension spoked wheel, the extra are insurance. *20 up front
and 24 in the back are enough when used with systems which
straightline the spokes. *This can be bought as a fancy factory
wheelset or can be done by a builder using the well known traditional
materials and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.
The problem is you don't have the insurance of the extra spokes should
a badger get caught in your wheel and takke out a spoke, the wheel
will fail. *The 28, 32 and 36 can be ridden home. *I rode a 34 spoked
wheel for two months withot worrying about it.
and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.

You caught my curiosity w/ that. Would you care to elaborate?

Trevor lives on Planet Wherever, where things work differently than
they do on Earth. *On Planet Wherever, they eat street drugs and they
drink linseed oil spiked with heavy metal additives.

The gravitational force on Planet Wherever is almost certainly much
lower than it is on Earth, because the people there can get away with
doing a lot of cockamamie bull**** to their bike wheels that would
render Earth bike wheels unusable.

Chalo

Chalo belongs to the church who's mantra goes "Tighter is Righter, all
hail the Jobst". Of course there are many wheel assemblies which will
not survive this treatment because they are lightweight racing wheels
and the correct treatment of thin walled lightweight rims is never to
over tension the spokes or overload the rim in use. This means that
particular rims are unsuitable for fat-arsed riders, because fat-arsed
riders should not be using lightweight racing rims, ever. etc. etc.

On 15/04/11 18:49, thirty-six wrote:
On Apr 15, 1:59 am, wrote:
On Apr 11, 3:51 pm, wrote:



On Apr 11, 1:35 pm, Cicero wrote:

On my "I miss Jobst" I got a lot of smirking comments that were hard to
decipher. Since I can't reply to all of them I started a new post. To
be more specific my Open Pros are 32 spokes with Shimano ultegra hubs.
I paid around $90-100 for a front wheel, and $110-120 for a rear wheel,
on the sets I purchased. Now if I got a lot of mystique with my
purchase I was unaware of that. These wheels were pre-built with only
minor truing necessary on my part. Now if you folk are finding
pre-built wheels that are as good as the OP's for cheaper, I'd sure like
to know about it. All I see when I'm shopping around on-line for wheels
are wheels that cost around $200, with not enough spokes. Please
enlighten me.

You don't need 32 spokes, even 28 spokes are more than enough in a
well built tension spoked wheel, the extra are insurance. 20 up front
and 24 in the back are enough when used with systems which
straightline the spokes. This can be bought as a fancy factory
wheelset or can be done by a builder using the well known traditional
materials and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.
The problem is you don't have the insurance of the extra spokes should
a badger get caught in your wheel and takke out a spoke, the wheel
will fail. The 28, 32 and 36 can be ridden home. I rode a 34 spoked
wheel for two months withot worrying about it.
and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.

You caught my curiosity w/ that. Would you care to elaborate?
Thanks, JD

For entry level racing, yes stick to what are essentially training
wheels unless there is particular importance to the race. Pure racing
wheels though can be lower count, assuming there is someone to haul
you out of the ditch should you have a bad fall. The manipulation of
the spokes of which I speak is that of creating elbows so as to
attatch to the hub without making the sweeping bends in the spokes
which exist in the typical economy wheel. The simplest procedure is
to use two small flat cone spanners to 'twist' the spokes around each
other. It's only suficient to create a small and permanent 10deg bend
at the spokke crossing. This greatly improves wheel stability to such
an extent that I have ridden a wheel with the right hand spokes
obscured by a narrow rim without suffering the usual bending during
cornering.

Once the wheel is constructed with elbows at the crossings it becomes
apparent that spoke tension can be much reduced and dialled in for
correct shock absorbtion for the rider. The wheels may also be tied
and soldered and when a front wheel is double tied and soldered with
the additional elbows, the wheel tracking ability is so superior, it
makes me wonder whether it should be a requirement in bunch racing. I
believe it would prevent many falls and crashes particularly at entry
level.
And what builder builds this way

On Apr 15, 2:16*pm, Chris Taylor wrote:
On 15/04/11 18:49, thirty-six wrote:

On Apr 15, 1:59 am, *wrote:
On Apr 11, 3:51 pm, *wrote:

On Apr 11, 1:35 pm, Cicero *wrote:

On my "I miss Jobst" I got a lot of smirking comments that were hard to
decipher. *Since I can't reply to all of them I started a new post.. *To
be more specific my Open Pros are 32 spokes with Shimano ultegra hubs.
I paid around $90-100 for a front wheel, and $110-120 for a rear wheel,
on the sets I purchased. *Now if I got a lot of mystique with my
purchase I was unaware of that. *These wheels were pre-built with only
minor truing necessary on my part. *Now if you folk are finding
pre-built wheels that are as good as the OP's for cheaper, I'd sure like
to know about it. *All I see when I'm shopping around on-line for wheels
are wheels that cost around $200, with not enough spokes. *Please
enlighten me.

You don't need 32 spokes, even 28 spokes are more than enough in a
well built tension spoked wheel, the extra are insurance. *20 up front
and 24 in the back are enough when used with systems which
straightline the spokes. *This can be bought as a fancy factory
wheelset or can be done by a builder using the well known traditional
materials and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.
The problem is you don't have the insurance of the extra spokes should
a badger get caught in your wheel and takke out a spoke, the wheel
will fail. *The 28, 32 and 36 can be ridden home. *I rode a 34 spoked
wheel for two months withot worrying about it.
and a bit of manipulation of the spokes at their crossings.

You caught my curiosity w/ that. Would you care to elaborate?
Thanks, JD

For entry level racing, yes stick to what are essentially training
wheels unless there is particular importance to the race. *Pure racing
wheels though can be lower count, assuming there is someone to haul
you out of the ditch should you have a bad fall. *The manipulation of
the spokes of which I speak is that of creating elbows so as to
attatch to the hub without making the sweeping bends in the spokes
which exist in the typical economy wheel. *The simplest procedure is
to use two small flat cone spanners to 'twist' the spokes around each
other. *It's only suficient to create a small and permanent 10deg bend
at the spokke crossing. *This greatly improves wheel stability to such
an extent that I have ridden a wheel with the right hand spokes
obscured by a narrow rim without suffering the usual bending during
cornering.

Once the wheel is constructed with elbows at the crossings it becomes
apparent that spoke tension can be much reduced and dialled in for
correct shock absorbtion for the rider. *The wheels may also be tied
and soldered and when a front wheel is double tied and soldered with
the additional elbows, the wheel tracking ability is so superior, it
makes me wonder whether it should be a requirement in bunch racing. *I
believe it would prevent many falls and crashes particularly at entry
level.

And what builder builds this way

In response to the sniper, an intelligent "builder".

On Apr 15, 12:36*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Apr 15, 2:16*pm, Chris Taylor wrote:

And what builder builds this way

In response to the sniper, an intelligent "builder".

I won't comment on the adjective "intelligent." But I note that
"builder" is singular.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski wrote:

thirty-six wrote:

Chris Taylor wrote:

And what builder builds this way

In response to the sniper, an intelligent "builder".

I won't comment on the adjective "intelligent." *But I note that
"builder" is singular.

More than a little bit singular, in this case.

On Apr 15, 7:06*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Apr 15, 12:36*pm, thirty-six wrote:

On Apr 15, 2:16*pm, Chris Taylor wrote:

And what builder builds this way

In response to the sniper, an intelligent "builder".

I won't comment on the adjective "intelligent." *But I note that
"builder" is singular.

- Frank Krygowski

It was a leading question, neatly answered. There are many who
construct their wheels in this manner, you prefer just not to see.