headset drags according to spacer order

jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 6, 2014 7:44:36 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 9:58:18 AM UTC+2, dstamat wrote:
Hello All,

My bicycle is setup with a 1 1/8" Chris King NoThreadset headset and a
Ritchey Classic stem. When I bought it I also had 4 1cm spacers added
in order to raise the handlebars (4 spacers - stem). Everything worked fine.

I recently decided to lower the riding position and moved the stem
between the spacers (i.e. 2 spacers - stem - 2 spacers). After
tightening the headset to the prescribed torque (1.7 Nm according to
Chris King) I noticed that the headset drags a bit when the handlebar
turns left but runs fine when it turns right. I removed the handlebar
to make sure that no cables were rubbing but the result was the same. I
even tried to loosen the stem cap bolt but with anything more than 0.5
Nm the headset drags when turned left.

Out of curiosity I changed the spacer/stem order back to the original
(4 spacers - stem), retightened and there was no dragging. Everything was back to normal.

So, my question. How does the spacer/stem order affect the headset
setup? Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Many thanks in advance

Dimitris

Hello again,

I continued testing different combinations of spacers with no luck until
I turned the stem up side down to +6 deg, where it originally was before
my attempt to lower the riding position. As it turns out with the stem
at +6 deg the headset adjustment is very easy while at -6 deg it just does not be done.

So, as many of you pointed out, the issue is the stem. It works on one
side, it does not work on the other. How can I fix it? What kind of
reshaping/resurfacing will I have to do?

Send it to Lou in the Netherlands, and he will will face it for you. Or
you could go to your local bike shop and have them do it, but it will
lack the surgical precision Lou is known for. Really, you could do a
heart transplant in his garage. It's that clean.

-- Jay Beattie.

😊
I once even made a facing tool for my front brake calipers:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765...noredirect= 1
--
Lou

Lou Holtman writes:

jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 6, 2014 7:44:36 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 9:58:18 AM UTC+2, dstamat wrote:
Hello All,

My bicycle is setup with a 1 1/8" Chris King NoThreadset headset and a
Ritchey Classic stem. When I bought it I also had 4 1cm spacers added
in order to raise the handlebars (4 spacers - stem). Everything worked fine.

I recently decided to lower the riding position and moved the stem
between the spacers (i.e. 2 spacers - stem - 2 spacers). After
tightening the headset to the prescribed torque (1.7 Nm according to
Chris King) I noticed that the headset drags a bit when the handlebar
turns left but runs fine when it turns right. I removed the handlebar
to make sure that no cables were rubbing but the result was the same. I
even tried to loosen the stem cap bolt but with anything more than 0.5
Nm the headset drags when turned left.

Out of curiosity I changed the spacer/stem order back to the original
(4 spacers - stem), retightened and there was no dragging. Everything was back to normal.

So, my question. How does the spacer/stem order affect the headset
setup? Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Many thanks in advance

Dimitris

Hello again,

I continued testing different combinations of spacers with no luck until
I turned the stem up side down to +6 deg, where it originally was before
my attempt to lower the riding position. As it turns out with the stem
at +6 deg the headset adjustment is very easy while at -6 deg it just does not be done.

So, as many of you pointed out, the issue is the stem. It works on one
side, it does not work on the other. How can I fix it? What kind of
reshaping/resurfacing will I have to do?

Send it to Lou in the Netherlands, and he will will face it for you. Or
you could go to your local bike shop and have them do it, but it will
lack the surgical precision Lou is known for. Really, you could do a
heart transplant in his garage. It's that clean.

-- Jay Beattie.

😊
I once even made a facing tool for my front brake calipers:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765...noredirect= 1

Very impressive.

--
Joe Riel

On Thursday, November 6, 2014 2:05:09 PM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 9:58:18 AM UTC+2, dstamat wrote:
Hello All,

My bicycle is setup with a 1 1/8" Chris King NoThreadset headset and a
Ritchey Classic stem. When I bought it I also had 4 1cm spacers added in
order to raise the handlebars (4 spacers - stem). Everything worked fine.

I recently decided to lower the riding position and moved the stem
between the spacers (i.e. 2 spacers - stem - 2 spacers). After
tightening the headset to the prescribed torque (1.7 Nm according to
Chris King) I noticed that the headset drags a bit when the handlebar
turns left but runs fine when it turns right. I removed the handlebar to
make sure that no cables were rubbing but the result was the same. I
even tried to loosen the stem cap bolt but with anything more than 0.5
Nm the headset drags when turned left.

Out of curiosity I changed the spacer/stem order back to the original (4
spacers - stem), retightened and there was no dragging. Everything was back to normal.

So, my question. How does the spacer/stem order affect the headset
setup? Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Many thanks in advance

Dimitris

Hello again,

I continued testing different combinations of spacers with no luck until
I turned the stem up side down to +6 deg, where it originally was before
my attempt to lower the riding position. As it turns out with the stem at
+6 deg the headset adjustment is very easy while at -6 deg it just does not be done.

So, as many of you pointed out, the issue is the stem. It works on one
side, it does not work on the other. How can I fix it? What kind of
reshaping/resurfacing will I have to do?

Thanks

Dimitris

At least one of the faces is square (the one at the bottom when everything
work OK). You can use the face as a reference in a milling operation. If
you don't have access to a milling machine then go with Andrew's advice and
buy a new stem. This is a really bad one if this causes the kind of trouble
you describe.

I think it might be possible to fix it by some careful measurement and work
with a hand file. For example, you could pull the fork so you had access
to the steerer tube; use the good square face of the stem to scribe a line
around the steerer tube, having first marked the tube with a permanent marker
(so your scribed line is visible); re-install the stem with the faulty face
up against the scribed line, and use that to see where there is an out-of-square
surface, a projection, a burr or whatever; then file until it looks perfect.

I'd try that before I went shopping for a stem.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, November 6, 2014 2:05:09 PM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 9:58:18 AM UTC+2, dstamat wrote:
Hello All,

My bicycle is setup with a 1 1/8" Chris King NoThreadset headset and a
Ritchey Classic stem. When I bought it I also had 4 1cm spacers added in
order to raise the handlebars (4 spacers - stem). Everything worked fine.

I recently decided to lower the riding position and moved the stem
between the spacers (i.e. 2 spacers - stem - 2 spacers). After
tightening the headset to the prescribed torque (1.7 Nm according to
Chris King) I noticed that the headset drags a bit when the handlebar
turns left but runs fine when it turns right. I removed the handlebar to
make sure that no cables were rubbing but the result was the same. I
even tried to loosen the stem cap bolt but with anything more than 0.5
Nm the headset drags when turned left.

Out of curiosity I changed the spacer/stem order back to the original (4
spacers - stem), retightened and there was no dragging. Everything was back to normal.

So, my question. How does the spacer/stem order affect the headset
setup? Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Many thanks in advance

Dimitris

Hello again,

I continued testing different combinations of spacers with no luck until
I turned the stem up side down to +6 deg, where it originally was before
my attempt to lower the riding position. As it turns out with the stem at
+6 deg the headset adjustment is very easy while at -6 deg it just does not be done.

So, as many of you pointed out, the issue is the stem. It works on one
side, it does not work on the other. How can I fix it? What kind of
reshaping/resurfacing will I have to do?

Thanks

Dimitris

At least one of the faces is square (the one at the bottom when everything
work OK). You can use the face as a reference in a milling operation. If
you don't have access to a milling machine then go with Andrew's advice and
buy a new stem. This is a really bad one if this causes the kind of trouble
you describe.

I think it might be possible to fix it by some careful measurement and work
with a hand file. For example, you could pull the fork so you had access
to the steerer tube; use the good square face of the stem to scribe a line
around the steerer tube, having first marked the tube with a permanent marker
(so your scribed line is visible); re-install the stem with the faulty face
up against the scribed line, and use that to see where there is an out-of-square
surface, a projection, a burr or whatever; then file until it looks perfect.

I'd try that before I went shopping for a stem.

- Frank Krygowski

Yeah but you are retired and have plenty of time 😊. But if tightening the
stem bolts makes it freeze then we talking about accuracy of the play of
the stem if the bolts are not tightened. I really doubt that you can
achieve that with a handtool. Not even if you have plenty of time.


--
Lou

On 11/6/2014 1:55 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, November 6, 2014 2:05:09 PM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 9:58:18 AM UTC+2, dstamat wrote:
Hello All,

My bicycle is setup with a 1 1/8" Chris King NoThreadset headset and a
Ritchey Classic stem. When I bought it I also had 4 1cm spacers added in
order to raise the handlebars (4 spacers - stem). Everything worked fine.

I recently decided to lower the riding position and moved the stem
between the spacers (i.e. 2 spacers - stem - 2 spacers). After
tightening the headset to the prescribed torque (1.7 Nm according to
Chris King) I noticed that the headset drags a bit when the handlebar
turns left but runs fine when it turns right. I removed the handlebar to
make sure that no cables were rubbing but the result was the same. I
even tried to loosen the stem cap bolt but with anything more than 0.5
Nm the headset drags when turned left.

Out of curiosity I changed the spacer/stem order back to the original (4
spacers - stem), retightened and there was no dragging. Everything was back to normal.

So, my question. How does the spacer/stem order affect the headset
setup? Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Many thanks in advance

Dimitris

Hello again,

I continued testing different combinations of spacers with no luck until
I turned the stem up side down to +6 deg, where it originally was before
my attempt to lower the riding position. As it turns out with the stem at
+6 deg the headset adjustment is very easy while at -6 deg it just does not be done.

So, as many of you pointed out, the issue is the stem. It works on one
side, it does not work on the other. How can I fix it? What kind of
reshaping/resurfacing will I have to do?

Thanks

Dimitris

At least one of the faces is square (the one at the bottom when everything
work OK). You can use the face as a reference in a milling operation. If
you don't have access to a milling machine then go with Andrew's advice and
buy a new stem. This is a really bad one if this causes the kind of trouble
you describe.

I think it might be possible to fix it by some careful measurement and work
with a hand file. For example, you could pull the fork so you had access
to the steerer tube; use the good square face of the stem to scribe a line
around the steerer tube, having first marked the tube with a permanent marker
(so your scribed line is visible); re-install the stem with the faulty face
up against the scribed line, and use that to see where there is an out-of-square
surface, a projection, a burr or whatever; then file until it looks perfect.

I'd try that before I went shopping for a stem.

- Frank Krygowski

Yeah but you are retired and have plenty of time 😊. But if tightening the
stem bolts makes it freeze then we talking about accuracy of the play of
the stem if the bolts are not tightened. I really doubt that you can
achieve that with a handtool. Not even if you have plenty of time.



Machinists of my grandfather's day did that sort of work to
very high standards and I know a man who imports chinese
machine tools who reports that machine ways are hand scraped
to straight by teams of semiskilled workers even now.

In the real world, Lou's right. You can't to the job
properly for $30 of your time that a stem costs.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, November 6, 2014 8:13:07 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:

Machinists of my grandfather's day did that sort of work to
very high standards

Hell, when I was young, a fitter wasn't just a slap-up assembler, each one had an emery cloth trailing out of his pocket because he *fitted* the part to very close tolerances, and he could turn it too if required, hence his job title, fitter and turner. But, alas, that sort of punctilio now costs too much for us. Nobody wants to pay for it. It's a sort of advance, because it forces manufacturers to make things to the close tolerances that has given us the general long service cycle and outright longevity of all kinds of mechanical bits'n'bobs.

Andre Jute
Not a luddite

On Thursday, November 6, 2014 11:22:38 AM UTC-8, JoeRiel wrote:
Lou Holtman writes:

jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 6, 2014 7:44:36 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 9:58:18 AM UTC+2, dstamat wrote:
Hello All,

My bicycle is setup with a 1 1/8" Chris King NoThreadset headset and a
Ritchey Classic stem. When I bought it I also had 4 1cm spacers added
in order to raise the handlebars (4 spacers - stem). Everything worked fine.

I recently decided to lower the riding position and moved the stem
between the spacers (i.e. 2 spacers - stem - 2 spacers). After
tightening the headset to the prescribed torque (1.7 Nm according to
Chris King) I noticed that the headset drags a bit when the handlebar
turns left but runs fine when it turns right. I removed the handlebar
to make sure that no cables were rubbing but the result was the same.. I
even tried to loosen the stem cap bolt but with anything more than 0..5
Nm the headset drags when turned left.

Out of curiosity I changed the spacer/stem order back to the original
(4 spacers - stem), retightened and there was no dragging. Everything was back to normal.

So, my question. How does the spacer/stem order affect the headset
setup? Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Many thanks in advance

Dimitris

Hello again,

I continued testing different combinations of spacers with no luck until
I turned the stem up side down to +6 deg, where it originally was before
my attempt to lower the riding position. As it turns out with the stem
at +6 deg the headset adjustment is very easy while at -6 deg it just does not be done.

So, as many of you pointed out, the issue is the stem. It works on one
side, it does not work on the other. How can I fix it? What kind of
reshaping/resurfacing will I have to do?

Send it to Lou in the Netherlands, and he will will face it for you. Or
you could go to your local bike shop and have them do it, but it will
lack the surgical precision Lou is known for. Really, you could do a
heart transplant in his garage. It's that clean.

-- Jay Beattie.

😊
I once even made a facing tool for my front brake calipers:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765...noredirect= 1

Very impressive.

Yes, but now the secret is out, and we can all build one! (Or in my case, earn the money to buy one: http://www.niagaracycle.com/categori...tool-tab-mount )

Actually, I don't need one with BB7 mechanical discs because of the floating mount. https://www.sram.com/avid/products/b...cal-disc-brake One benefit of buying low tech.

I build my own tools all the time. I recently bent a spoke to fish a wire out of the wall. Making a precision bend took incredible strength and a pair of pliers -- but they were CNC pliers that I had to program (open, close, open).

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thu, 6 Nov 2014 14:46:03 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Thursday, November 6, 2014 11:22:38 AM UTC-8, JoeRiel wrote:
Lou Holtman writes:

jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 6, 2014 7:44:36 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 9:58:18 AM UTC+2, dstamat wrote:
Hello All,

My bicycle is setup with a 1 1/8" Chris King NoThreadset headset and a
Ritchey Classic stem. When I bought it I also had 4 1cm spacers added
in order to raise the handlebars (4 spacers - stem). Everything worked fine.

I recently decided to lower the riding position and moved the stem
between the spacers (i.e. 2 spacers - stem - 2 spacers). After
tightening the headset to the prescribed torque (1.7 Nm according to
Chris King) I noticed that the headset drags a bit when the handlebar
turns left but runs fine when it turns right. I removed the handlebar
to make sure that no cables were rubbing but the result was the same. I
even tried to loosen the stem cap bolt but with anything more than 0.5
Nm the headset drags when turned left.

Out of curiosity I changed the spacer/stem order back to the original
(4 spacers - stem), retightened and there was no dragging. Everything was back to normal.

So, my question. How does the spacer/stem order affect the headset
setup? Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Many thanks in advance

Dimitris

Hello again,

I continued testing different combinations of spacers with no luck until
I turned the stem up side down to +6 deg, where it originally was before
my attempt to lower the riding position. As it turns out with the stem
at +6 deg the headset adjustment is very easy while at -6 deg it just does not be done.

So, as many of you pointed out, the issue is the stem. It works on one
side, it does not work on the other. How can I fix it? What kind of
reshaping/resurfacing will I have to do?

Send it to Lou in the Netherlands, and he will will face it for you. Or
you could go to your local bike shop and have them do it, but it will
lack the surgical precision Lou is known for. Really, you could do a
heart transplant in his garage. It's that clean.

-- Jay Beattie.

?
I once even made a facing tool for my front brake calipers:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1010765...noredirect= 1

Very impressive.

Yes, but now the secret is out, and we can all build one! (Or in my case, earn the money to buy one: http://www.niagaracycle.com/categori...tool-tab-mount )

Actually, I don't need one with BB7 mechanical discs because of the floating mount. https://www.sram.com/avid/products/b...cal-disc-brake One benefit of buying low tech.

I build my own tools all the time. I recently bent a spoke to fish a wire out of the wall. Making a precision bend took incredible strength and a pair of pliers -- but they were CNC pliers that I had to program (open, close, open).

-- Jay Beattie.

You should also install either a mechanical guard or is CNC, some sort
of coded interrupt, to avoid crushed digits :-0
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 20:55:01 +0100, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, November 6, 2014 2:05:09 PM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 9:58:18 AM UTC+2, dstamat wrote:
Hello All,

My bicycle is setup with a 1 1/8" Chris King NoThreadset headset and a
Ritchey Classic stem. When I bought it I also had 4 1cm spacers added in
order to raise the handlebars (4 spacers - stem). Everything worked fine.

I recently decided to lower the riding position and moved the stem
between the spacers (i.e. 2 spacers - stem - 2 spacers). After
tightening the headset to the prescribed torque (1.7 Nm according to
Chris King) I noticed that the headset drags a bit when the handlebar
turns left but runs fine when it turns right. I removed the handlebar to
make sure that no cables were rubbing but the result was the same. I
even tried to loosen the stem cap bolt but with anything more than 0.5
Nm the headset drags when turned left.

Out of curiosity I changed the spacer/stem order back to the original (4
spacers - stem), retightened and there was no dragging. Everything was back to normal.

So, my question. How does the spacer/stem order affect the headset
setup? Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Many thanks in advance

Dimitris

Hello again,

I continued testing different combinations of spacers with no luck until
I turned the stem up side down to +6 deg, where it originally was before
my attempt to lower the riding position. As it turns out with the stem at
+6 deg the headset adjustment is very easy while at -6 deg it just does not be done.

So, as many of you pointed out, the issue is the stem. It works on one
side, it does not work on the other. How can I fix it? What kind of
reshaping/resurfacing will I have to do?

Thanks

Dimitris

At least one of the faces is square (the one at the bottom when everything
work OK). You can use the face as a reference in a milling operation. If
you don't have access to a milling machine then go with Andrew's advice and
buy a new stem. This is a really bad one if this causes the kind of trouble
you describe.

I think it might be possible to fix it by some careful measurement and work
with a hand file. For example, you could pull the fork so you had access
to the steerer tube; use the good square face of the stem to scribe a line
around the steerer tube, having first marked the tube with a permanent marker
(so your scribed line is visible); re-install the stem with the faulty face
up against the scribed line, and use that to see where there is an out-of-square
surface, a projection, a burr or whatever; then file until it looks perfect.

I'd try that before I went shopping for a stem.

- Frank Krygowski

Yeah but you are retired and have plenty of time ?. But if tightening the
stem bolts makes it freeze then we talking about accuracy of the play of
the stem if the bolts are not tightened. I really doubt that you can
achieve that with a handtool. Not even if you have plenty of time.

Sure you can, or if not perfectly then certainly good enough. Install
the stem and spacers, find the tight spots (feeler gage between the
stem and the spacer) file a bit and recheck. Probably 10 or 15 minutes
work.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 23:05:37 +0000, Phil W Lee
wrote:

Frank Krygowski considered Thu, 6 Nov 2014
11:27:34 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:

On Thursday, November 6, 2014 2:05:09 PM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, November 2, 2014 9:58:18 AM UTC+2, dstamat wrote:
Hello All,

My bicycle is setup with a 1 1/8" Chris King NoThreadset headset and a
Ritchey Classic stem. When I bought it I also had 4 1cm spacers added in
order to raise the handlebars (4 spacers - stem). Everything worked fine.

I recently decided to lower the riding position and moved the stem
between the spacers (i.e. 2 spacers - stem - 2 spacers). After
tightening the headset to the prescribed torque (1.7 Nm according to
Chris King) I noticed that the headset drags a bit when the handlebar
turns left but runs fine when it turns right. I removed the handlebar to
make sure that no cables were rubbing but the result was the same. I
even tried to loosen the stem cap bolt but with anything more than 0.5
Nm the headset drags when turned left.

Out of curiosity I changed the spacer/stem order back to the original (4
spacers - stem), retightened and there was no dragging. Everything was back to normal.

So, my question. How does the spacer/stem order affect the headset
setup? Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Many thanks in advance

Dimitris

Hello again,

I continued testing different combinations of spacers with no luck until
I turned the stem up side down to +6 deg, where it originally was before
my attempt to lower the riding position. As it turns out with the stem at
+6 deg the headset adjustment is very easy while at -6 deg it just does not be done.

So, as many of you pointed out, the issue is the stem. It works on one
side, it does not work on the other. How can I fix it? What kind of
reshaping/resurfacing will I have to do?

Thanks

Dimitris

At least one of the faces is square (the one at the bottom when everything
work OK). You can use the face as a reference in a milling operation. If
you don't have access to a milling machine then go with Andrew's advice and
buy a new stem. This is a really bad one if this causes the kind of trouble
you describe.

I think it might be possible to fix it by some careful measurement and work
with a hand file. For example, you could pull the fork so you had access
to the steerer tube; use the good square face of the stem to scribe a line
around the steerer tube, having first marked the tube with a permanent marker
(so your scribed line is visible); re-install the stem with the faulty face
up against the scribed line, and use that to see where there is an out-of-square
surface, a projection, a burr or whatever; then file until it looks perfect.

I'd try that before I went shopping for a stem.

- Frank Krygowski

I wouldn't want to risk a scriber on the steerer tube, as it creates a
stress riser with even very slight scoring.
If you can find another tube of the same diameter to use, you could
then use the scribing method to establish which face is square and
which not. The square face will still match the scribed line all
round when you rotate it around the tube. The face that isn't square
won't. Once you know that, a decent set of calipers will probably
measure accurately enough to just check the thickness all around, and
adjust with a fine file, although a micrometer would be better.

Just install the stem. Use a .001" or .002" feeler gauge, between the
stem and the top spacer, to find the tight places and touch it up with
a file.
--
Cheers,

John B.