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#11
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definitely not cyclists
Theo Bekkers Wrote: Zebee Johnstone wrote: http://www.copenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.com/ all those women riding about, no lycra, daggy bikes. Not cyclists, no way! Never happen in Oz. Can't have people riding daggy bicycles just for transport. Just down to the shop? In normal shoes and everything? Nah, real cyclists only ride in bunches, on Sundays. Not good publicity in Perth ATM, a ped got hit a week or so ago on the South Perth foreshore shared path, subsequently died. Theo Wasn't it at the bell tower on the city side? A tourist who was standing on the bike path with a group of tourists who then scattered as the cyclist tried to go around them? Anyway, it has generated the usual calls in the letters to the editor for registration of cyclists so they can be identified (although in this case I believe the cyclist did not attempt to flee or hide his identity) SteveA -- SteveA |
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#12
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definitely not cyclists
SteveA wrote:
Theo Bekkers Wrote: Not good publicity in Perth ATM, a ped got hit a week or so ago on the South Perth foreshore shared path, subsequently died. Wasn't it at the bell tower on the city side? A tourist who was standing on the bike path with a group of tourists who then scattered as the cyclist tried to go around them? Anyway, it has generated the usual calls in the letters to the editor for registration of cyclists so they can be identified (although in this case I believe the cyclist did not attempt to flee or hide his identity) Sorry, you're right. Apparently the tourists scattered at the sight of a mad cyclist bearing down on them and one jumped the wrong way. Theo |
#13
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definitely not cyclists
On Nov 26, 10:31 am, wrote:
On Nov 22, 6:31 pm, tim wrote: Also considering the option of old-school upright "city-bikes"... single-speed with coaster brake, or hub-geared with drums. Chain guards, mud guards, kick stands. Not compatible with lycra. Again, priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport. As regards this point, you may have missed the boat: http://www.theindianbicycleshop.com/index.html Read this bit again: "priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport" $600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow! tim |
#14
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definitely not cyclists
In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST)
tim wrote: Read this bit again: "priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport" $600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow! It is a bit rough. Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what people use for that job now. Zebee |
#15
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definitely not cyclists
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST) tim wrote: Read this bit again: "priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport" $600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow! It is a bit rough. Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what people use for that job now. Zebee The prices for similar bikes from Europe are actually higher than that. They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!). I never managed to ride up the hill to home until I got my first 10 speed. [1] G-S [1] I avoid that particular hill and ride the long way around it these days despite gears |
#16
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Simple bikes for local transport
On Nov 26, 8:57 pm, G-S wrote:
Zebee Johnstone wrote: In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST) tim wrote: $600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow! Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what people use for that job now. That's my goal. I've dispaired at the cheap bike options available in Australia for years. BTH's good experiences with his BigW bike are refreshing, but the fact remains - ultra-cheap bikes are very low quality and generally unsuitable for their target and actual use. It makes no sense to fit knobby tyres on a bike with the generic "not for off-road use" sticker, for example. The first few steps up the price ladder gets you more gimmicks and no more quality. Dysfunctional suspension. Shockingly bad disc brakes. Funky "Y-bike" frames that add weight, reduce strength and increase the number of questionable welds. Pay a bit more, the gimmicks get better in quality, until you're paying $500+ for a reasonably good bike. I would still question whether the style of the bike is appropriate for the target use - as discussed in the thread that I've forked this from, Australian society is set on the idea of cycling being a sport, and the categories of bikes on the market ("road" or "mountain") reflect this. "Hybrid" bikes are a change from this, but simply don't exist at the lower price level... where many of the people who would be best served by such a bike are shopping. I want to offer functional bikes for a price comparable to department store junk bikes. Cheap, comfortable, reliable, and adequate for short local trips. I'm not kidding myself that this is a huge market segment. I'm not about to quitting my day job and build a lavish corporate HQ. In the first instance I'm only planning on selling a few cargo-bikes (bakfietsen), which is an even smaller segment. But if I'm setting up import and distribution channels I may as well look at other options too. A bit more inventory. A few more pallets in the garage. A bit more money tied up in stuff I hope I can sell. Gulp. (This whole debacle started because I want a bakfiets to carry my little girls, and couldn't find them for sale outside of Europe and Portland, OR.. Next thing I know I'm setting myself up as an import tycoon. Eeep.) The prices for similar bikes from Europe are actually higher than that. That's why I'm looking to source from China. People admire Dutch and Danish cycling culture, so they look to buy Dutch- and Danish-built bikes to follow the "simple bike" philosophy. If you can afford a genuine Dutch single-speed city bike, good luck to you. I'm sure they're great bikes, but the price doesn't fit the product. There's nearly a billion people riding basic single-speed bikes in China and India combined, and they sure as heck can't afford premium quality European craftsmanship. If anybody knows how to put a basic steel bike frame together it's the Chinese. They sure build enough of them. I suspect there are more miles ridden on Chinese single-speed bikes than all other bikes in the world combined. They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!). So we get to the point of this post - what do people think is necessary (and/or desireable) for a basic, general purpose, local transport bike for lycra-free "unreal cyclists" (as PeteSig so elequently put it)? Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for sporting bikes - there's no better, lighter or cheaper way to get such a wide range of gears - but they require some shifting technique, and present the possibility of the chain falling off. People like my Mum are scared of derailer gears. Hub gears are more rugged, more forgiving of (moderate) neglect, and more foolproof in operation. 3- speed hubs have been used for nearly 100 years. There are now numerous 8-speed hubs on the market (Shimano, Sram and Sturmey) although none of them are particularly cheap. I don't think the local transport bike market can afford, nor requires, Rohloff :-P A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a business suit, without getting filthy. The chain case requirement fits in with the "no derailers" idea - a single chainline is easier to guard. Chain guards are also a deadset nuisance if you drop a chain, which is much more likely with derailer gears (especially if the bike ends up in small-small gears, which they inevitably do when ridden by non-enthusiast cyclists). Asian and European city bikes tend to run coaster (back-pedal) brakes on the rear wheel only. I survived okay as a kid with my back-pedal brake BMX, but Australian law now requires all new bikes to have front and rear brakes. Are rim brakes really a good choice for bikes that are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc.. How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how much of an issue this is. 26" or 700c wheels? Any other thoughts or suggestions? tim http://www.townbikes.com - work in progress behind the scenes :-P |
#17
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Simple bikes for local transport
In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:39:38 -0800 (PST)
tim wrote: discussed in the thread that I've forked this from, Australian society is set on the idea of cycling being a sport, and the categories of bikes on the market ("road" or "mountain") reflect this. "Hybrid" bikes are a change from this, but simply don't exist at the lower price level... where many of the people who would be best served by such a bike are shopping. I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men (My sister drives a 4WD but it was her husband who insisted on it. She dislikes it.) Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for definitely. And you don't need that many, but you do need a low one. A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a Again yes. Full case is a good idea, helps keep the water off too. are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc.. I think it is going to be a price point thing and probably an ease of maintenance thing too. Which is easiest to write a "brake adjustment for dummies" pamphlet about? How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how much of an issue this is. I think not so much a skirt as for ease of getting on and off. Modern bikes have high BBs so high seats. If you can get lower BBs so people can sit on the seat with feet on the ground - yes that's not "most efficient" but they don't care - then that would be good. 26" or 700c wheels? Whatever people can get decent tough comfortable tyres for. I suspect 26" is going to have more tough 80psi tyres. The whole "sport" thing again. Any other thoughts or suggestions? I like dynamo lights.... Simple bolt on lights and bottle dynamos as an option? Baskets and racks, for sure. Baskets are such a damn useful thing. Sprung saddles. I doubt your average commuter cyclist wants to break in a Brooks. Zebee |
#18
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Simple bikes for local transport
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
Tim wrote I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men (My sister drives a 4WD but it was her husband who insisted on it. She dislikes it.) My wife drives a 4WD (well, a RAV4) and she loves it. I'd sooner a sedan. Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for definitely. And you don't need that many, but you do need a low one. I believe real bikes that are designed that way are around 70-75 inches. are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc.. I think it is going to be a price point thing and probably an ease of maintenance thing too. Which is easiest to write a "brake adjustment for dummies" pamphlet about? Back-pedal brakes may be way out of style, but they work pretty well for 20 or 30 years with minimal maintenance. A 'town-bike' needs to have longevity without weekly or monthly maintenance. Utility bikes should be able to survive with an annual service for 30 years. You see Dutch town-bikes in Bali still, and they must be 60-70 years old. I think not so much a skirt as for ease of getting on and off. Modern bikes have high BBs so high seats. If you can get lower BBs so people can sit on the seat with feet on the ground - yes that's not "most efficient" but they don't care - then that would be good. Yup, granny isn't going to swing her leg around the back of the seat, and when you get on a bike in a skirt, it's better to have the skirt in front of you rather than behind. I like dynamo lights.... Simple bolt on lights and bottle dynamos as an option? Sprung saddles. I doubt your average commuter cyclist wants to break in a Brooks. Yes and yes. Theo |
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Simple bikes for local transport
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#20
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Simple bikes for local transport
On Nov 27, 11:53 am, "Theo Bekkers" wrote:
Back-pedal brakes may be way out of style, but they work pretty well for 20 or 30 years with minimal maintenance. The only brakes I've owned other than rim and disk brakes are the back- pedal brake on my old BMX and the drum drag-brake on my old (1970s vintage) tandem. From what I have heard about modern roller brakes and service drum brakes (eg http://www.sturmey-archer.com/ hubs_fh_SBF.php and http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/catalog/cycle/ products/group.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302050047&A SSORTMENT%3C %3East_id=1408474395181667&bmUID=1196130764762) they're just as durable as they ever were; nobody's getting rich selling replacement friction elements for these things. A 'town-bike' needs to have longevity without weekly or monthly maintenance. Utility bikes should be able to survive with an annual service for 30 years. I suspect most of the people who'd buy this type of bike won't do their own maintenance. An annual service will be recommended. Although, I don't remember the coaster brake of my old BMX getting much of a service after being ridden hub-deep in salt water... I doubt your average commuter cyclist wants to break in a Brooks. I doubt your average townbikes.com customer wants to pay for a Brooks either. Not without the Rohloff upgrade, anyway. Hmmmm, cheap Chinese frames with Rohloff speedhubs and Brooks saddles, I'm sure there's a market there :-P I think one of the main comfort benefit of a Brooks saddle is that the wallet in the rider's right hip pocket is so much thinner, so he can sit more evenly. I've seen some leather Brooks knock-off saddles available though... Maybe that will be stage 3 of the business development. Cargo bikes, then city bikes, then general commuter bike bits and pieces (including chain cases and farkles as requested by Lemmi). Maybe not until stage 4 - I'll get the lavish corporate HQ cum lair sorted first. Including a big tank full of sharks. tim making plans while he waits patiently for his approval sample bakfietsen to be unloaded from the container... tap tap tap... |
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