Crap Shimano gears!!

On May 19, 2:31*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Eric Vey" wrote in message

...

Hank wrote:

I guarantee you that no $1000 bike has cassette cogs made of anything
except steel. MAYBE on $2000 bikes, you'll see some Ti cogs. $1000
gets you Tiagra with a 105 RD. Probably an HG50 9-speed cluster.

$1000 bike and you get a $35 (retail price) cassette. Jeepers, what a
deal.

You can always build your own bike for $1000.

Nashbar Frame & fork: $250
low-end wheelzinnabox: $150
Sora groupset: $300
Cheapest bar/stem/seatpost/saddle/tires you can find: $100

And the cherry on top:
Dura-Ace Ti Cassette: $200!

On May 19, 5:13 pm, Hank wrote:
On May 19, 2:31 pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

"Eric Vey" wrote in message

...

Hank wrote:

I guarantee you that no $1000 bike has cassette cogs made of anything
except steel. MAYBE on $2000 bikes, you'll see some Ti cogs. $1000
gets you Tiagra with a 105 RD. Probably an HG50 9-speed cluster.

$1000 bike and you get a $35 (retail price) cassette. Jeepers, what a
deal.

You can always build your own bike for $1000.

Nashbar Frame & fork: $250
low-end wheelzinnabox: $150
Sora groupset: $300
Cheapest bar/stem/seatpost/saddle/tires you can find: $100

And the cherry on top:
Dura-Ace Ti Cassette: $200!

Barend mirror $10
To admire teh awesomeness of cassette.

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
Hi All,

Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is already
hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.

I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to ride
when I was 20
years younger and pedaling with a lot more force than I'm sure my wife is,
never did this with their gears, even when the chain was covered with rust
and by all accounts should have stretched like a rubber band.

I've seen other people with newer bikes with the same problem. And
my wife refuses to ride in the rain, so it's not a lack of lube problem.

So, what is the deal here? Why is it I can buy a brand new o-ring chain,
forged aluminum sprocket and front sprocket for my Honda 750, apply
at least 50 times the amount of torque to that with the motorcycle engine,
and have that set last at least 6 years before it starts hogging out the
teeth? And that chain is exposed to the elements - and unlike my wife I
-do- ride in the rain.

Why can't a chain, and front and rear sprocket set on a brand new thousand
dollar bicycle last as long as a set on a $150 Kmart 10-speed special? And
why is the best the bicycle manufactures can come up with is the bushingless
chain - which although touted as "better" is really just a money-saving
thing, since it takes less parts to make? Where are the bicycle o-ring
chains? And why are the sprockets on expensive bikes made out of such
lame steel today compared to cheap, or old bikes?

Is it some secret agenda of the bicycle manufacturers to put parts on
these bikes that wear out quick so the owners have to keep taking them
back into the bike shop for new sprockets?

Ted




cT = 0.8

yes, thinner sprockets wear faster. slightly. but they come on bikes
that shift better, perform better, and are much more enjoyable to ride.
live with it. or go fixed. or ride crap. your call.

ps. i'm with you on the o-ring chain. for road riding, it's not
necessary, but for muddy mtb, cross, etc, i'd be interested to try using
one just for the sake of experiment. really bad mud can seize up a
chain on a long ride meaning you have to keep getting off to lube it.
o-ring would do nothing to prevent cog wear, but if it meant you could
keep riding, it would probably be worth a small friction penalty for
extreme conditions.

In article
,
Hank wrote:

On May 19, 2:31*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Eric Vey" wrote in message

...

Hank wrote:

I guarantee you that no $1000 bike has cassette cogs made of anything
except steel. MAYBE on $2000 bikes, you'll see some Ti cogs. $1000
gets you Tiagra with a 105 RD. Probably an HG50 9-speed cluster.

$1000 bike and you get a $35 (retail price) cassette. Jeepers, what a
deal.

You can always build your own bike for $1000.

Nashbar Frame & fork: $250
low-end wheelzinnabox: $150
Sora groupset: $300
Cheapest bar/stem/seatpost/saddle/tires you can find: $100

And the cherry on top:
Dura-Ace Ti Cassette: $200!

That's actually a really impressive spec, especially since the $300
price of a Sora group seems legit.

But you're missing a headset, probably the saddle clamp, and you're
pricing assembly at $0. At which point, even discounting the awesome Ti
Cassette (which won't, ahem, actually work with a Sora 9v group) you
have spec'd a $700 bike for $800.

That said, I did find a D-A 9 cassette with two Ti cogs for $120:

http://www.triathletesports.com/Prod...Code=689228004
924-DSS3&click=8694

And of course, all the cool kids have reverted to real steel for their
cassettes, thanks to the cleverly light SRAM PowerDome design, which
trades considerable cost for being both light and durable:

https://www.bikebuster.com/details/320103.html?vat=0&currency=usd

It's a lot of machining.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
]...

I guarantee you that no $1000 bike has cassette cogs made of
anything
except steel. MAYBE on $2000 bikes, you'll see some Ti cogs. $1000
gets you Tiagra with a 105 RD. Probably an HG50 9-speed cluster.

$1000 bike and you get a $35 (retail price) cassette. Jeepers, what a
deal.

You can always build your own bike for $1000.

Nashbar Frame & fork: $250
low-end wheelzinnabox: $150
Sora groupset: $300
Cheapest bar/stem/seatpost/saddle/tires you can find: $100

And the cherry on top:
Dura-Ace Ti Cassette: $200!

That's actually a really impressive spec, especially since the $300
price of a Sora group seems legit.

But you're missing a headset, probably the saddle clamp, and you're
pricing assembly at $0. At which point, even discounting the awesome Ti
Cassette (which won't, ahem, actually work with a Sora 9v group) you
have spec'd a $700 bike for $800.

That said, I did find a D-A 9 cassette with two Ti cogs for $120:

http://www.triathletesports.com/Prod...Code=689228004
924-DSS3&click=8694

And of course, all the cool kids have reverted to real steel for their
cassettes, thanks to the cleverly light SRAM PowerDome design, which
trades considerable cost for being both light and durable:

https://www.bikebuster.com/details/320103.html?vat=0&currency=usd

It's a lot of machining.


Plus shipping is a lot more expensive for all the pieces than a whole bike.

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On May 19, 3:51 am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
Hi All,

Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is
already
hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.

I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to
ride
when I was 20
years younger and pedaling with a lot more force than I'm sure my wife
is,
never did this with their gears, even when the chain was covered with
rust
and by all accounts should have stretched like a rubber band.

I've seen other people with newer bikes with the same problem. And
my wife refuses to ride in the rain, so it's not a lack of lube problem.

So, what is the deal here? Why is it I can buy a brand new o-ring
chain,
forged aluminum sprocket and front sprocket for my Honda 750, apply
at least 50 times the amount of torque to that with the motorcycle
engine,
and have that set last at least 6 years before it starts hogging out the
teeth? And that chain is exposed to the elements - and unlike my wife I
-do- ride in the rain.

Why can't a chain, and front and rear sprocket set on a brand new
thousand
dollar bicycle last as long as a set on a $150 Kmart 10-speed special?
And
why is the best the bicycle manufactures can come up with is the
bushingless
chain - which although touted as "better" is really just a money-saving
thing, since it takes less parts to make? Where are the bicycle o-ring
chains? And why are the sprockets on expensive bikes made out of such
lame steel today compared to cheap, or old bikes?

Is it some secret agenda of the bicycle manufacturers to put parts on
these bikes that wear out quick so the owners have to keep taking them
back into the bike shop for new sprockets?

Ted

I think there's a chance Ted doesn't understand what he's looking at.

Ted, what do you mean by "hogging out the teeth"? Do you mean all the
teeth on a sprocket are not uniform in shape? And that the sides of
the sprockets are not smooth, but are sort of grooved, and thinner in
places?

If so, it's because they're made that way on purpose. The shape of
the sprockets and teeth are specially designed to allow the chain to
snap quickly from one to the next when a rider shifts gears. It's a
design feature that has made shifting much easier than it was when you
applied all that force 20 years ago. In fact, if you go into a bike
shop and look at the brand new cogs, you'll see the same "problem."
Which is not a problem at all.


I think your talking about "interactive glide".

Why I noticed it on her gears at all was
because I happened to be fixing a flat on it - the bike was supplied
from the factory with cheap crappy tires (what do you expect) and
she gets probably a flat every month. (we must have a lot of drunks
busting beer bottles because every time it's always a glass flake that
gets in) The wear on the teeth on the 4th gear in the cassette stuck
out pretty obviously, it's definitely hogged out - those teeth do not
look like the teeth in the other gears. The other gears in
the cassette could be fine, I really didn't look that closely. My general
approach when seeing worn gears is to leave the sprockets
and chain alone until they start slipping then replace everything all
at once.

If your wife has ridden fewer than 10,000 miles on that bike during
the past year - which is an easy bet - there's no way she's "hogged
out" any teeth.


I think your exaggerating on that. Mileage and chain wear are not
closely related. Chain wear is related to chain lubrication, a dry chain
with grit in it will wear quite quickly.

Ted

"Paul M. Hobson" wrote in message
...


Motorcycles don't necessarily have more torque than cyclists. The
motors operate at significantly higher speeds (rpm) than a cyclist's
legs, however. Model year 2000 Honda Shadow has 65 ft-lbf of torque.
Simply standing standing on a pedal at my 135 lbf weight and 170 mm
cranks applies 75 ft-lbf of torque to my drive train.


Good point, I had forgotten about the whole leverage thing. That and
the chain being thinner would explain a lot. And, yes I can understand
why they went to a thinner chain.

Ted

On May 21, 5:59 am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message

I think there's a chance Ted doesn't understand what he's looking at.

Ted, what do you mean by "hogging out the teeth"? Do you mean all the
teeth on a sprocket are not uniform in shape? And that the sides of
the sprockets are not smooth, but are sort of grooved, and thinner in
places?

If so, it's because they're made that way on purpose. The shape of
the sprockets and teeth are specially designed to allow the chain to
snap quickly from one to the next when a rider shifts gears. It's a
design feature that has made shifting much easier than it was when you
applied all that force 20 years ago. In fact, if you go into a bike
shop and look at the brand new cogs, you'll see the same "problem."
Which is not a problem at all.

I think your talking about "interactive glide".

Why I noticed it on her gears at all was
because I happened to be fixing a flat on it - the bike was supplied
from the factory with cheap crappy tires (what do you expect) and
she gets probably a flat every month. (we must have a lot of drunks
busting beer bottles because every time it's always a glass flake that
gets in) The wear on the teeth on the 4th gear in the cassette stuck
out pretty obviously, it's definitely hogged out - those teeth do not
look like the teeth in the other gears. The other gears in
the cassette could be fine, I really didn't look that closely. My general
approach when seeing worn gears is to leave the sprockets
and chain alone until they start slipping then replace everything all
at once.

If your wife has ridden fewer than 10,000 miles on that bike during
the past year - which is an easy bet - there's no way she's "hogged
out" any teeth.

I think your exaggerating on that. Mileage and chain wear are not
closely related. Chain wear is related to chain lubrication, a dry chain
with grit in it will wear quite quickly.

So, how many miles has your wife ridden on that year-old bike? Tell
us. Until then, I'm sticking with my guess that she has not ridden
nearly enough miles to do any damage to the rear cogs.

Admittedly, if you've kept the bike parked on an ocean beach (for good
salt spray), and were careful to regularly drag the chain in the sand
(for plenty of grit), and never cleaned or lubricated the chain, and
if your wife has done at least several thousand miles with the chain
in that condition, there's a chance she's worn out the chain.

But I doubt it. The squeaking and stiffness would make her want
lubrication. And that still wouldn't "hog out the teeth."

Here's what you should do: Post some photos online so we can see
exactly what you're complaining about. Then we can stop guessing.

Alternately, take the bike into a genuine bike shop. Show them what
you're complaining about, and let them show you a brand new set of
cogs for comparison. My guess is that you'll learn a lot.

- Frank Krygowski

On May 21, 2:59*am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
*The wear on the teeth on the 4th gear in the cassette stuck
out pretty obviously, it's definitely hogged out - those teeth do not
look like the teeth in the other gears. *The other gears in
the cassette could be fine, I really didn't look that closely. *My general
approach when seeing worn gears is to leave the sprockets
and chain alone until they start slipping then replace everything all
at once.

This is bad maintenance practice. You should
measure the chain every now and then and replace
it when it gets to 0.5-1% elongation (beyond the
nominal 12" per 12 links).
That way, you can make a cassette last through
about 3 chains, and you won't wear out the chainrings,
which are expensive to replace.

This is no different (and less hassle) than remembering
to change the oil in your car.

If your wife has ridden fewer than 10,000 miles on that bike during
the past year - which is an easy bet - there's no way she's "hogged
out" any teeth.

I think your exaggerating on that. *Mileage and chain wear are not
closely related. *Chain wear is related to chain lubrication, a dry chain
with grit in it will wear quite quickly.

If you're wearing out cogs because the chain's
worn and never lubed, it's not "crap Shimano gears,"
it's failing to take care of your equipment. Respect
your bike and it will last longer.

Ben

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...

But I doubt it. The squeaking and stiffness would make her want
lubrication.

Hmm, it never has before.... ;-)

Here's what you should do: Post some photos online so we can see
exactly what you're complaining about. Then we can stop guessing.


But that would take all the fun out of it. :-)

Seriously, I hadn't thought of doing that, but I will. I have to replace a
broken spoke anyway.

Ted