#21
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Evaulating a bike
On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:39:08 +0200, "Sandy" wrote:
Dans le message de , OK, so I'm looking at $500 for the wheels and now a total of $600 which I doubt I can ever recover v buying something new. I think your idea of the chainring sizes apporpriate. Based on my feel, I 'd like a 36 / 48 combo leaving the freewheel alone as you say. I thought that for about $1000, I could kick some serious ass in the new bike dept for a person of my abilities and station in the sport. Am I dreaming? Exactly, you're dreaming. Not a healthy dream. Kind of a cross between a geek, a golfer, and someone with a superman complex, in that reverie. Just because you may be good at one sport doesn't give you a sure thing in another one. But do what you can, develop, enjoy, RIDE. And what's with a 500 dollar wheelset ? Really, this is the putter syndrome, where that magic gimmick gets you first prize. A hundred for a pair of solid wheels will be fine, thank you. The part that got my attention is the simultaineous idea that either a $500 wheelset or a $1000 bike was needed. That bike isn't going to have anything like that type of wheelset on it. Doesn't need it either. Ron Now I'm in a quandry. You make great points, but also that I'm happily riding for hours is a serious consideration. That came from replacing then adjusting the seat. Oh, I also got those tight pants. No more chafe. Then, there's the recycling effect. If you spend to the moon, and don't really continue, then you might as well not have spent a dime. So look around carefully for a guy who has just done that trip, whose wonderbike is going for a song, and avoid filling that role for someone after you. Try hard to remember that there are plenty of bikes that will fit you, and fit is the key to enduring enjoyment and development. You sound, now, to be all too ready to be sold the magic ride, and while I don't want to dull your enthusiasm, it will be good to add a measure of reality to your search. |
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#22
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Evaulating a bike
Paul Cassel wrote: Right now, I typically ride 30-40 miles on some hills alternating between riding full out hard and recovery days. Being a 40+ I can't recover from day after day of hard push like I could when I was a distance runner. So I tend to ride hard one day, next day lift in the gym, then have a recovery day riding (same distance but slower) with some pushes in the ride. Then back to the gym, then a hard day riding. Repeat. I'd like to ride an autumn easy 100 miler. That's my short term goal. Long term I'd like to use bicycling as a substitute for distance running Apart from being durable enough not to fall apart underneath you, the most important thing is that the bicycle should fit well. Without this, it will never be comfortable. Your Giordana seems to fit you well and that is a plus. How much were you thinking of paying for it? http://tinyurl.com/dnc9p http://tinyurl.com/9gpkc Giordana is a sport/fashion clothing manufacturer. The bike is OK but nothing special. I can't see it being worth more than about $250, because there are many other great bargains out there in the used or NOS (new old stock) market, cheaper and maybe better for your needs. Why is it comfortable? Amongst other things, you'll notice that the handlebars are nearly level with the seat. Most new road bikes are sold such that you can't do this, they have poseur posture, you will find them uncomfortable, even if the geometry is otherwise the same. The second most important thing is what size tires you can use. Most modern poseur bikes can barely clear 25mm tires. Those are OK but most people are better off with 28 or even 32. It depends on the road surfaces you ride on. I believe you mention that you find the ride harsh, that would be because the tires are too skinny and have to be inflated too hard. Your bike does not have clearance for tires bigger than are depicted in the photo. That's why I posted - I need to make a decison or two here. For example, my buddy said the wheels stink so do I put $300 (used) to $600 wheels on this bike? If so, I'm committed to riding it if you also add in altering the shifters. I don't want to build a house on a poor foundation (frameset). This is all wasted money. Have you noticed any offensive odour coming from the wheels? I thought that for about $1000, I could kick some serious ass in the new bike dept for a person of my abilities and station in the sport. Am I dreaming? You can get a lot for that price or thereabouts. If it is modern style, you will find it very light, with very skinny tires, certainly no room for fenders, and with poseur posture (although some shops may be able to fit you right, i.e. they won't cut the steerer tube so short). It will shift easily and have a wide range of gears, and look glossy. The pedals will require special shoes. There are many other fish in the sea though. These would not be exactly what I would get but they would be similar: http://tinyurl.com/9sd8o http://tinyurl.com/8y7ao There are many, many others. For the gearing, you could widen your range considerably by just replacing the rear cogset with a 14-28. Any competent bike shop or yourself should be able to do it for relatively little money ($25 for the part?). Brakes: you just need better pads (Kool Stop). In sum, your bike is OK but not ideal, if you like it enough and the price is cheap enough, go for it but don't spend more than for a new rear cogset. There are many new models in traditional style that will fit and ride well and be versatile for a reasonable price. There are more new ones available, probably your local bike shop is full of them, that for a reasonable or ludicrous price will fit poorly and be unversatile. The market is very diverse and it helps to know what you want and need. { |
#23
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Evaulating a bike
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:03:42 -0700, 41 wrote:
There are many other fish in the sea though. These would not be exactly what I would get but they would be similar: http://tinyurl.com/9sd8o That's the Surly Cross-check, their CXcrossish do anything bike. Good stuff. The Surly Pacer is another good choice. It's a road frame, but takes standard reach brakes so you can fit fenders and 28mm tires, or up to 35mm tires w/o. Frame is @400 USD, I don't know of anybody offering a built up package with it though. |
#24
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Evaulating a bike
Paul Cassel wrote: I'm riding a borrowed bike named a Giordana Spica. It was lent to me by a friend who bought the entire bike for a few components. He lent it to me for my use while he slowly assembles the rest of the parts he's looking for to build a new bike for himself. I may have a chance to buy this bike sometime later on either whole or by replacing the few components he bought the entire bike for thus leaving me with the parts he regards as surplus (such as frame and forks). I've done some research on this bike learning it was a private label built in Italy during the 80's and named after the importer (feminized name). It's built of quality steel tubing and fits me fairly well - or about as well as a standard bike will. By today's standards, it's heavy at 22+ lbs. So I ask this group - is there anything new under the sun which is significant in bike tech which would cause me to be happier on a new tech bike such as the Giant OCR1 composite which is what I'm considering? Not really. Way to much emphasis on new gadgets of todays road bicycles. Fit is the most important thing, all else pales in comparison. Lever mounted shifting is nice to have, clipless pedals also but the rest, in materials, goofy wheels, carbn this or that, makes little difference. If there is a link to a 'bike evaluation' article, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. |
#25
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Evaulating a bike
Paul Cassel wrote: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...d/IMG_0001.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...d/IMG_0002.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...d/IMG_0003.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...d/IMG_0004.jpg I wouldn't worry too much about weight. What matters is the combined weight of the bike and rider (and the bike is a small fraction of the total). I'm baffled. All the noise I hear from bike riding folks fusses about mass. People seem to pay brutal money for a carbon waterbottle cage over a steel one to say, what, 20 g? When I go to an LBS, they go on about how neat their 16 lb bikes are and that I can go even lower if I choose to. It seems to be the ruling criterion for a bike and here you run counter and say don't worry too much about it. I can't reconcile both views. It baffles me also and I own a bike shop. It's all about marketing and sellin', nothing about riding. Evidence of a flat market for bicycles. Only 4 things have any significant affect on cycling performance, -fit-bike fit -fat-lackthereof on you -fitness-being fit -finesse-ridning/training/racing smart all else is mostly bugleoil. |
#26
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Evaulating a bike
41 wrote:
Apart from being durable enough not to fall apart underneath you, the most important thing is that the bicycle should fit well. Without this, it will never be comfortable. Your Giordana seems to fit you well and that is a plus. How much were you thinking of paying for it? I was going to offer $350 which is what he paid. I have fixed it up. When he got it it wouldn't shift and the brake cables were missing. I had to free up the brakes, but all cleaned up fine so I think it in good shape. The brakes and drive / shifters are all Dura Ace which I think make my offer reasonable based on what I've seen for sale on eBay. What I don't know is if and / or how much Dura Ace has changed over the years nor do I know the age of these components. They do seem to work ok. http://tinyurl.com/dnc9p http://tinyurl.com/9gpkc The first bike seems almost like 'mine' except for the wheels and I have Dura Ace. I'm unclear how much better off I am with Dura Ace compared to Ultegra, but I figure it has to be an upgrade of some sort. Thanks for those links. Giordana is a sport/fashion clothing manufacturer. The bike is OK but nothing special. I can't see it being worth more than about $250, because there are many other great bargains out there in the used or NOS (new old stock) market, cheaper and maybe better for your needs. Why is it comfortable? Amongst other things, you'll notice that the handlebars are nearly level with the seat. Most new road bikes are sold such that you can't do this, they have poseur posture, you will find them uncomfortable, even if the geometry is otherwise the same. Now this is a great point and shows how ignorant I am here. I noticed that my bike's seat is only slightly higher than the bars, but I figured that was my manner of adjusting the whole thing compared to modern manners of adjusting. Also not being experienced, I figured they very high seat / low bar combo was right as it was adjusted by pros at the LBS. I'm out of seatpost which is why I left mine as is. I thought *I* was wrong, but I see now due to your post that this is a preference thing. I definitely do not wish to look the poseur because I can't back that play. This may cause a laugh from some here, but I wear a tee shirt instead of a real bike shirt because I don't want to pretend to be what I'm not. I also ended up with the seat a bit nose up - something the owner of the bike questioned, but after messing around with it for a while, I find this works for me. The second most important thing is what size tires you can use. Most modern poseur bikes can barely clear 25mm tires. Those are OK but most people are better off with 28 or even 32. It depends on the road surfaces you ride on. I believe you mention that you find the ride harsh, that would be because the tires are too skinny and have to be inflated too hard. Your bike does not have clearance for tires bigger than are depicted in the photo. I don't seem to be as tire size sensitive as others. The original tires fell apart when I took them off to examine a tube which went flat. The LBS said I'd worn the tubes out (?). So I got new ones and also I got some interesting folding tires lacking a discernible bead. The tires were 23's to replace the 28's which were rotted. While warned that these would give me a harsh ride, I haven't notice either worse ride or the promised greater speed. I only got them because they were $10 each and seemed servicable. That's why I posted - I need to make a decison or two here. For example, my buddy said the wheels stink so do I put $300 (used) to $600 wheels on this bike? If so, I'm committed to riding it if you also add in altering the shifters. I don't want to build a house on a poor foundation (frameset). This is all wasted money. Have you noticed any offensive odour coming from the wheels? OK, it's easy to make fun of me here being a stark new guy, but also I find it very difficult to believe that experts spend all this money on wheels to no benefit. Apparently, based on my buddy's talk, the one who sold the Giordana to him put some junk wheels on the bike to sell it as a bike rather than a pile of miscellany parts. That said, I'm unclear on exactly what is wrong with these wheels aside from perhaps the hubs. If I spin the wheels with the bike in the air, the wheels stop spinning sooner than a similar spin on my daughters Cross bike. That could be bad bearings or less of a flywheel effect. I'm only going with what my buddy said. You can get a lot for that price or thereabouts. If it is modern style, you will find it very light, with very skinny tires, certainly no room for fenders, and with poseur posture (although some shops may be able to fit you right, i.e. they won't cut the steerer tube so short). It will shift easily and have a wide range of gears, and look glossy. The pedals will require special shoes. I have the shoes as I needed pedals for this bike so got some almost worn out SPD pedals and shoes to match. I needed the pedals that came with this bike for my daughter's bike. I didn't know any bikes had fenders any more except for those bikes which look like they come from the 30's. There are many other fish in the sea though. These would not be exactly what I would get but they would be similar: http://tinyurl.com/9sd8o http://tinyurl.com/8y7ao The Rambouillet looks, from a geometry standpoint, very much like the bike in question here. Clearly this isn't like buying trucks where you have only a few marques to choose from - which is what I thought. If you go to an LBS here (I've been to several to buy parts to make this bike run) there are only maybe 8 brands for sale. Seeing that the sea is full of different fish, to strain a metaphor, opens possiblities. Thanks. There are many, many others. For the gearing, you could widen your range considerably by just replacing the rear cogset with a 14-28. Any competent bike shop or yourself should be able to do it for relatively little money ($25 for the part?). Cogset is what I'm calling a cluster? If I can get the gearing reasonable for $25, that solves a lot of it. I thought I had to replace the entire drive train as a unit. Looking at the cost of a Dura Ace setup discouraged me quite a bit. Brakes: you just need better pads (Kool Stop). OK. In sum, your bike is OK but not ideal, if you like it enough and the price is cheap enough, go for it but don't spend more than for a new rear cogset. There are many new models in traditional style that will fit and ride well and be versatile for a reasonable price. There are more new ones available, probably your local bike shop is full of them, that for a reasonable or ludicrous price will fit poorly and be unversatile. The market is very diverse and it helps to know what you want and need. { Thanks for your extremely informative reply. I can't see changing a sport from one I'm enjoying to one I suffer doing. I'm real here. I'm never going to be competitive - been there done that in other sports. I'm riding for self fulfillment and enjoyment. I can't see riding one of those extreme bikes which put me in the stinkbug position. I doubt I'd be faster that way anyhow so it'd be a negative sum move. -paul |
#27
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Evaulating a bike
maxo wrote:
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:03:42 -0700, 41 wrote: There are many other fish in the sea though. These would not be exactly what I would get but they would be similar: http://tinyurl.com/9sd8o That's the Surly Cross-check, their CXcrossish do anything bike. Good stuff. The Surly Pacer is another good choice. It's a road frame, but takes standard reach brakes so you can fit fenders and 28mm tires, or up to 35mm tires w/o. Frame is @400 USD, I don't know of anybody offering a built up package with it though. I think I can build a bike. I do all my own motorcycle services so I have a decent mechanical b/g plus I have a good book. I definitely will have a close look at these bikes plus the Rambouillet if my buddy won't sell. I mean he bought the bike for some parts so I don't know if he'll sell or not. -paul |
#28
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Evaulating a bike
RonSonic wrote:
Then you'll stay heavy by cycling standards and there's no reason to feel bad about it. You can still crush them if they give you any crap. I don't anticipate having to crush any skinny bike fellows who give me crap. I mean they can just ride away if I look threatening I definitely do not want to put money into this bike and then give it back to my buddy who won't care for my changes. So we'll both lose. That's why I posted - I need to make a decison or two here. For example, my buddy said the wheels stink so do I put $300 (used) to $600 wheels on this bike? If so, I'm committed to riding it if you also add in altering the shifters. I don't want to build a house on a poor foundation (frameset). Why on earth spend that much for a wheelset. You aren't racing and a decent $250 set of built up wheels will run forever and be only trivially heavier than the higher priced ones. Well, you see I didn't know until you answered what the extra money would buy me. At my level, paying double to reduce my wheelset's mass 200 g is silly, I agree, but I thought maybe the cheaper ones wore out their bearings. After riding some, I got a flat. I took a wheel into an LBS to make sure I got the right size tire because in taking it off, it just came apart in my hands. I still had the tire tube there & the wrench said I wore out the tube. I didn't know you COULD wear out a tube just as I don't know what you get for more money in a wheelset. Maybe I'm dopey here, but I figure the wheel is the main part & limiter of a bike like a speaker system is for a hi fi. No matter how good the bike, crummy wheels make for a crummy bike experience. I figured you put in your big money in a wheelset for a bike like you put your big money in speakers for a hi fi. So I"m wrong? Or for someone living in flatter terrain. I'm old, fat and slow and have no trouble living with a 13-23 cogset, but I live on a sandbar, aka Florida. We can get into specifics, just what are your wheels, how bad are they, is the frame worth building up and so on. But ya know, I'm thinking maybe the best thing at this point is to put on a cogset you can manage on the hills you ride. Deal with the downtube shifters. Get used to the road bike vibe. Then with more time, experience and exposure get a better feel for what you really need and want in a bike. The rear cassette or freewheel will cost you 25-35 bucks and be fair rent whenever you give the bike back to your buddy or give you many good miles if you keep. Nothing wrong with riding retro style, especially with a cool old italian bike. Clearly the right move here, suggested by you and at least one other, is for me to go for a new cogset. Currently I have a 45 / 52 up front. One day I rode along with a bunch of experts for a while. They were courteous enough to let me join their group for about 8 miles when our courses converged. We were going 21-24 mph and I was still in the 45 chainring. That's what made me wonder what sort of superman rode this bike in the high gears! Here I'm in the mountains so we have some flats, but also some very difficult hills. Pretty much - not quite as bad. Like I said, they don't make anything that rides nicer than a good steel frame. Good titanium and graphite can ride about as well I'm told. Cost a bunch too. Graphite? Is that carbon fiber? Yeah, if I get good at this and really get serious, I hope someday to get a Ti framed bike. Well, that's tomorrow's problem. -paul |
#29
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Evaulating a bike
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
It baffles me also and I own a bike shop. It's all about marketing and sellin', nothing about riding. Evidence of a flat market for bicycles. Only 4 things have any significant affect on cycling performance, -fit-bike fit -fat-lackthereof on you -fitness-being fit -finesse-ridning/training/racing smart all else is mostly bugleoil. Thanks for a forthright explanation. Since the bike fits well, and seems now to work decently, I guess I'll stick if I can buy it. I've spoken to many other 'civilians' who tried biking only to give it up. Every time, and I mean EVERY time they say its because they are in pain doing it. A friend of mine tried several bikes and then bought a $1,200 'comfort' bike (?) which was so heavy that she couldn't ride faster than a walk. All hills defeated her. Now you can't get her back on a bike at all. I was the same until I got some good advice and started playing with my bike's adjustments plus I got a high end seat. Curiously, the seat I got has almost no padding while the seat I ditched has a lot. As far as the 4F's, I'm on #3. I'll worry about #4 maybe someday. thanks. -paul |
#30
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Evaulating a bike
Sandy wrote:
Dans le message de , Then, there's the recycling effect. If you spend to the moon, and don't really continue, then you might as well not have spent a dime. So look around carefully for a guy who has just done that trip, whose wonderbike is going for a song, and avoid filling that role for someone after you. Try hard to remember that there are plenty of bikes that will fit you, and fit is the key to enduring enjoyment and development. You sound, now, to be all too ready to be sold the magic ride, and while I don't want to dull your enthusiasm, it will be good to add a measure of reality to your search. OK, I wish to defend my position here. I am not an equipment junkie in all sports - just the opposite, but I know that there are some pursuits which are very equipment sensitive. That means you can't do them well lacking a minimun equipment level. I cited skiing as one. When my wife, who was a great skiier (she died) wanted me to ski, I initially bought some old used equipment - which is what I thought I may have had in this bike. She pushed me to get expensive high end stuff which WAS a magic bullet for my skiing. I skiied much better and enjoyed the sport much more for having spent what I intially thought a silly amount of money for equipment. My fitness and skill didn't change, but my outcome did just due to the equipment. Having had that experience in one sport, and when reading bicycling magazines I note most of the talk is about equipment (as opposed to skills) I reasoned that the key to this sport is equipment - or it could be. I may be wrong here, but I don't think my reasoning was that outlandish. -paul |
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