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Evaulating a bike



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 8th 05, 11:52 PM
RonSonic
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Default Evaulating a bike

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:39:08 +0200, "Sandy" wrote:

Dans le message de ,

OK, so I'm looking at $500 for the wheels and now a total of $600
which I doubt I can ever recover v buying something new. I think your
idea of the chainring sizes apporpriate. Based on my feel, I 'd like
a 36 / 48 combo leaving the freewheel alone as you say.

I thought that for about $1000, I could kick some serious ass in the
new bike dept for a person of my abilities and station in the sport.
Am I dreaming?


Exactly, you're dreaming. Not a healthy dream. Kind of a cross between a
geek, a golfer, and someone with a superman complex, in that reverie. Just
because you may be good at one sport doesn't give you a sure thing in
another one. But do what you can, develop, enjoy, RIDE.

And what's with a 500 dollar wheelset ? Really, this is the putter
syndrome, where that magic gimmick gets you first prize. A hundred for a
pair of solid wheels will be fine, thank you.


The part that got my attention is the simultaineous idea that either a $500
wheelset or a $1000 bike was needed. That bike isn't going to have anything like
that type of wheelset on it. Doesn't need it either.

Ron

Now I'm in a quandry. You make great points, but also that I'm happily
riding for hours is a serious consideration. That came from replacing
then adjusting the seat. Oh, I also got those tight pants. No more
chafe.


Then, there's the recycling effect. If you spend to the moon, and don't
really continue, then you might as well not have spent a dime. So look
around carefully for a guy who has just done that trip, whose wonderbike is
going for a song, and avoid filling that role for someone after you.

Try hard to remember that there are plenty of bikes that will fit you, and
fit is the key to enduring enjoyment and development. You sound, now, to be
all too ready to be sold the magic ride, and while I don't want to dull your
enthusiasm, it will be good to add a measure of reality to your search.




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  #22  
Old August 9th 05, 12:03 AM
41
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Default Evaulating a bike


Paul Cassel wrote:

Right now, I typically ride 30-40 miles on some hills alternating
between riding full out hard and recovery days. Being a 40+ I can't
recover from day after day of hard push like I could when I was a
distance runner. So I tend to ride hard one day, next day lift in the
gym, then have a recovery day riding (same distance but slower) with
some pushes in the ride. Then back to the gym, then a hard day riding.
Repeat.


I'd like to ride an autumn easy 100 miler. That's my short term goal.
Long term I'd like to use bicycling as a substitute for distance running


Apart from being durable enough not to fall apart underneath you, the
most important thing is that the bicycle should fit well. Without this,
it will never be comfortable. Your Giordana seems to fit you well and
that is a plus. How much were you thinking of paying for it?

http://tinyurl.com/dnc9p
http://tinyurl.com/9gpkc

Giordana is a sport/fashion clothing manufacturer. The bike is OK but
nothing special. I can't see it being worth more than about $250,
because there are many other great bargains out there in the used or
NOS (new old stock) market, cheaper and maybe better for your needs.

Why is it comfortable? Amongst other things, you'll notice that the
handlebars are nearly level with the seat. Most new road bikes are sold
such that you can't do this, they have poseur posture, you will find
them uncomfortable, even if the geometry is otherwise the same.

The second most important thing is what size tires you can use. Most
modern poseur bikes can barely clear 25mm tires. Those are OK but most
people are better off with 28 or even 32. It depends on the road
surfaces you ride on. I believe you mention that you find the ride
harsh, that would be because the tires are too skinny and have to be
inflated too hard. Your bike does not have clearance for tires bigger
than are depicted in the photo.


That's why I posted - I need to make a decison or two here. For example,
my buddy said the wheels stink so do I put $300 (used) to $600

wheels on
this bike? If so, I'm committed to riding it if you also add in

altering
the shifters. I don't want to build a house on a poor foundation
(frameset).


This is all wasted money. Have you noticed any offensive odour coming
from the wheels?


I thought that for about $1000, I could kick some serious ass in the
new bike dept for a person of my abilities and station in the sport.


Am I dreaming?


You can get a lot for that price or thereabouts. If it is modern style,
you will find it very light, with very skinny tires, certainly no room
for fenders, and with poseur posture (although some shops may be able
to fit you right, i.e. they won't cut the steerer tube so short). It
will shift easily and have a wide range of gears, and look glossy. The
pedals will require special shoes.

There are many other fish in the sea though. These would not be exactly
what I would get but they would be similar:

http://tinyurl.com/9sd8o
http://tinyurl.com/8y7ao


There are many, many others.

For the gearing, you could widen your range considerably by just
replacing the rear cogset with a 14-28. Any competent bike shop or
yourself should be able to do it for relatively little money ($25 for
the part?).

Brakes: you just need better pads (Kool Stop).


In sum, your bike is OK but not ideal, if you like it enough and the
price is cheap enough, go for it but don't spend more than for a new
rear cogset. There are many new models in traditional style that will
fit and ride well and be versatile for a reasonable price. There are
more new ones available, probably your local bike shop is full of them,
that for a reasonable or ludicrous price will fit poorly and be
unversatile. The market is very diverse and it helps to know what you
want and need. {

  #23  
Old August 9th 05, 05:37 AM
maxo
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Default Evaulating a bike

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:03:42 -0700, 41 wrote:

There are many other fish in the sea though. These would not be exactly
what I would get but they would be similar:

http://tinyurl.com/9sd8o


That's the Surly Cross-check, their CXcrossish do anything bike. Good
stuff.

The Surly Pacer is another good choice. It's a road frame, but takes
standard reach brakes so you can fit fenders and 28mm tires, or up to 35mm
tires w/o. Frame is @400 USD, I don't know of anybody offering a built up
package with it though.

  #24  
Old August 9th 05, 01:38 PM
Qui si parla Campagnolo
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Default Evaulating a bike


Paul Cassel wrote:
I'm riding a borrowed bike named a Giordana Spica. It was lent to me by
a friend who bought the entire bike for a few components. He lent it to
me for my use while he slowly assembles the rest of the parts he's
looking for to build a new bike for himself.

I may have a chance to buy this bike sometime later on either whole or
by replacing the few components he bought the entire bike for thus
leaving me with the parts he regards as surplus (such as frame and forks).

I've done some research on this bike learning it was a private label
built in Italy during the 80's and named after the importer (feminized
name). It's built of quality steel tubing and fits me fairly well - or
about as well as a standard bike will. By today's standards, it's heavy
at 22+ lbs.



So I ask this group - is there anything new under the sun which is
significant in bike tech which would cause me to be happier on a new
tech bike such as the Giant OCR1 composite which is what I'm considering?


Not really. Way to much emphasis on new gadgets of todays road
bicycles. Fit is the most important thing, all else pales in
comparison. Lever mounted shifting is nice to have, clipless pedals
also but the rest, in materials, goofy wheels, carbn this or that,
makes little difference.


If there is a link to a 'bike evaluation' article, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks.


  #25  
Old August 9th 05, 01:42 PM
Qui si parla Campagnolo
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Default Evaulating a bike


Paul Cassel wrote:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...d/IMG_0001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...d/IMG_0002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...d/IMG_0003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...d/IMG_0004.jpg

I wouldn't worry too much about weight. What matters is the combined
weight of the bike and rider (and the bike is a small fraction of the
total).

I'm baffled. All the noise I hear from bike riding folks fusses about
mass. People seem to pay brutal money for a carbon waterbottle cage over
a steel one to say, what, 20 g? When I go to an LBS, they go on about
how neat their 16 lb bikes are and that I can go even lower if I choose
to. It seems to be the ruling criterion for a bike and here you run
counter and say don't worry too much about it. I can't reconcile both
views.


It baffles me also and I own a bike shop. It's all about marketing and
sellin', nothing about riding. Evidence of a flat market for bicycles.
Only 4 things have any significant affect on cycling performance,
-fit-bike fit
-fat-lackthereof on you
-fitness-being fit
-finesse-ridning/training/racing smart

all else is mostly bugleoil.

  #26  
Old August 9th 05, 03:51 PM
Paul Cassel
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Default Evaulating a bike

41 wrote:



Apart from being durable enough not to fall apart underneath you, the
most important thing is that the bicycle should fit well. Without this,
it will never be comfortable. Your Giordana seems to fit you well and
that is a plus. How much were you thinking of paying for it?


I was going to offer $350 which is what he paid. I have fixed it up.
When he got it it wouldn't shift and the brake cables were missing. I
had to free up the brakes, but all cleaned up fine so I think it in good
shape. The brakes and drive / shifters are all Dura Ace which I think
make my offer reasonable based on what I've seen for sale on eBay.

What I don't know is if and / or how much Dura Ace has changed over the
years nor do I know the age of these components. They do seem to work ok.

http://tinyurl.com/dnc9p
http://tinyurl.com/9gpkc


The first bike seems almost like 'mine' except for the wheels and I have
Dura Ace. I'm unclear how much better off I am with Dura Ace compared to
Ultegra, but I figure it has to be an upgrade of some sort. Thanks for
those links.

Giordana is a sport/fashion clothing manufacturer. The bike is OK but
nothing special. I can't see it being worth more than about $250,
because there are many other great bargains out there in the used or
NOS (new old stock) market, cheaper and maybe better for your needs.

Why is it comfortable? Amongst other things, you'll notice that the
handlebars are nearly level with the seat. Most new road bikes are sold
such that you can't do this, they have poseur posture, you will find
them uncomfortable, even if the geometry is otherwise the same.


Now this is a great point and shows how ignorant I am here. I noticed
that my bike's seat is only slightly higher than the bars, but I figured
that was my manner of adjusting the whole thing compared to modern
manners of adjusting. Also not being experienced, I figured they very
high seat / low bar combo was right as it was adjusted by pros at the
LBS. I'm out of seatpost which is why I left mine as is. I thought *I*
was wrong, but I see now due to your post that this is a preference thing.

I definitely do not wish to look the poseur because I can't back that
play. This may cause a laugh from some here, but I wear a tee shirt
instead of a real bike shirt because I don't want to pretend to be what
I'm not.

I also ended up with the seat a bit nose up - something the owner of the
bike questioned, but after messing around with it for a while, I find
this works for me.

The second most important thing is what size tires you can use. Most
modern poseur bikes can barely clear 25mm tires. Those are OK but most
people are better off with 28 or even 32. It depends on the road
surfaces you ride on. I believe you mention that you find the ride
harsh, that would be because the tires are too skinny and have to be
inflated too hard. Your bike does not have clearance for tires bigger
than are depicted in the photo.

I don't seem to be as tire size sensitive as others. The original tires
fell apart when I took them off to examine a tube which went flat. The
LBS said I'd worn the tubes out (?). So I got new ones and also I got
some interesting folding tires lacking a discernible bead. The tires
were 23's to replace the 28's which were rotted. While warned that these
would give me a harsh ride, I haven't notice either worse ride or the
promised greater speed. I only got them because they were $10 each and
seemed servicable.


That's why I posted - I need to make a decison or two here. For example,


my buddy said the wheels stink so do I put $300 (used) to $600

wheels on
this bike? If so, I'm committed to riding it if you also add in

altering
the shifters. I don't want to build a house on a poor foundation
(frameset).


This is all wasted money. Have you noticed any offensive odour coming
from the wheels?


OK, it's easy to make fun of me here being a stark new guy, but also I
find it very difficult to believe that experts spend all this money on
wheels to no benefit. Apparently, based on my buddy's talk, the one who
sold the Giordana to him put some junk wheels on the bike to sell it as
a bike rather than a pile of miscellany parts.

That said, I'm unclear on exactly what is wrong with these wheels aside
from perhaps the hubs. If I spin the wheels with the bike in the air,
the wheels stop spinning sooner than a similar spin on my daughters
Cross bike. That could be bad bearings or less of a flywheel effect.

I'm only going with what my buddy said.


You can get a lot for that price or thereabouts. If it is modern style,
you will find it very light, with very skinny tires, certainly no room
for fenders, and with poseur posture (although some shops may be able
to fit you right, i.e. they won't cut the steerer tube so short). It
will shift easily and have a wide range of gears, and look glossy. The
pedals will require special shoes.


I have the shoes as I needed pedals for this bike so got some almost
worn out SPD pedals and shoes to match. I needed the pedals that came
with this bike for my daughter's bike. I didn't know any bikes had
fenders any more except for those bikes which look like they come from
the 30's.

There are many other fish in the sea though. These would not be exactly
what I would get but they would be similar:

http://tinyurl.com/9sd8o
http://tinyurl.com/8y7ao


The Rambouillet looks, from a geometry standpoint, very much like the
bike in question here. Clearly this isn't like buying trucks where you
have only a few marques to choose from - which is what I thought. If you
go to an LBS here (I've been to several to buy parts to make this bike
run) there are only maybe 8 brands for sale. Seeing that the sea is full
of different fish, to strain a metaphor, opens possiblities. Thanks.


There are many, many others.

For the gearing, you could widen your range considerably by just
replacing the rear cogset with a 14-28. Any competent bike shop or
yourself should be able to do it for relatively little money ($25 for
the part?).


Cogset is what I'm calling a cluster? If I can get the gearing
reasonable for $25, that solves a lot of it. I thought I had to replace
the entire drive train as a unit. Looking at the cost of a Dura Ace
setup discouraged me quite a bit.

Brakes: you just need better pads (Kool Stop).


OK.


In sum, your bike is OK but not ideal, if you like it enough and the
price is cheap enough, go for it but don't spend more than for a new
rear cogset. There are many new models in traditional style that will
fit and ride well and be versatile for a reasonable price. There are
more new ones available, probably your local bike shop is full of them,
that for a reasonable or ludicrous price will fit poorly and be
unversatile. The market is very diverse and it helps to know what you
want and need. {

Thanks for your extremely informative reply. I can't see changing a
sport from one I'm enjoying to one I suffer doing. I'm real here. I'm
never going to be competitive - been there done that in other sports.
I'm riding for self fulfillment and enjoyment. I can't see riding one of
those extreme bikes which put me in the stinkbug position. I doubt I'd
be faster that way anyhow so it'd be a negative sum move.

-paul
  #27  
Old August 9th 05, 03:54 PM
Paul Cassel
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Default Evaulating a bike

maxo wrote:
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:03:42 -0700, 41 wrote:


There are many other fish in the sea though. These would not be exactly
what I would get but they would be similar:

http://tinyurl.com/9sd8o



That's the Surly Cross-check, their CXcrossish do anything bike. Good
stuff.

The Surly Pacer is another good choice. It's a road frame, but takes
standard reach brakes so you can fit fenders and 28mm tires, or up to 35mm
tires w/o. Frame is @400 USD, I don't know of anybody offering a built up
package with it though.

I think I can build a bike. I do all my own motorcycle services so I
have a decent mechanical b/g plus I have a good book. I definitely will
have a close look at these bikes plus the Rambouillet if my buddy won't
sell. I mean he bought the bike for some parts so I don't know if he'll
sell or not.

-paul
  #28  
Old August 9th 05, 04:06 PM
Paul Cassel
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Posts: n/a
Default Evaulating a bike

RonSonic wrote:


Then you'll stay heavy by cycling standards and there's no reason to feel bad
about it. You can still crush them if they give you any crap.


I don't anticipate having to crush any skinny bike fellows who give me
crap. I mean they can just ride away if I look threatening




I definitely do not want to put money into this bike and then give it
back to my buddy who won't care for my changes. So we'll both lose.
That's why I posted - I need to make a decison or two here. For example,
my buddy said the wheels stink so do I put $300 (used) to $600 wheels on
this bike? If so, I'm committed to riding it if you also add in altering
the shifters. I don't want to build a house on a poor foundation
(frameset).



Why on earth spend that much for a wheelset. You aren't racing and a decent $250
set of built up wheels will run forever and be only trivially heavier than the
higher priced ones.


Well, you see I didn't know until you answered what the extra money
would buy me. At my level, paying double to reduce my wheelset's mass
200 g is silly, I agree, but I thought maybe the cheaper ones wore out
their bearings.

After riding some, I got a flat. I took a wheel into an LBS to make sure
I got the right size tire because in taking it off, it just came apart
in my hands. I still had the tire tube there & the wrench said I wore
out the tube. I didn't know you COULD wear out a tube just as I don't
know what you get for more money in a wheelset.

Maybe I'm dopey here, but I figure the wheel is the main part & limiter
of a bike like a speaker system is for a hi fi. No matter how good the
bike, crummy wheels make for a crummy bike experience. I figured you put
in your big money in a wheelset for a bike like you put your big money
in speakers for a hi fi.

So I"m wrong?




Or for someone living in flatter terrain. I'm old, fat and slow and have no
trouble living with a 13-23 cogset, but I live on a sandbar, aka Florida.

We can get into specifics, just what are your wheels, how bad are they, is the
frame worth building up and so on. But ya know, I'm thinking maybe the best
thing at this point is to put on a cogset you can manage on the hills you ride.
Deal with the downtube shifters. Get used to the road bike vibe. Then with more
time, experience and exposure get a better feel for what you really need and
want in a bike.

The rear cassette or freewheel will cost you 25-35 bucks and be fair rent
whenever you give the bike back to your buddy or give you many good miles if you
keep. Nothing wrong with riding retro style, especially with a cool old italian
bike.


Clearly the right move here, suggested by you and at least one other, is
for me to go for a new cogset. Currently I have a 45 / 52 up front.
One day I rode along with a bunch of experts for a while. They were
courteous enough to let me join their group for about 8 miles when our
courses converged. We were going 21-24 mph and I was still in the 45
chainring. That's what made me wonder what sort of superman rode this
bike in the high gears!

Here I'm in the mountains so we have some flats, but also some very
difficult hills.




Pretty much - not quite as bad. Like I said, they don't make anything that rides
nicer than a good steel frame. Good titanium and graphite can ride about as well
I'm told. Cost a bunch too.

Graphite? Is that carbon fiber? Yeah, if I get good at this and really
get serious, I hope someday to get a Ti framed bike. Well, that's
tomorrow's problem. -paul
  #29  
Old August 9th 05, 04:15 PM
Paul Cassel
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Posts: n/a
Default Evaulating a bike

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:


It baffles me also and I own a bike shop. It's all about marketing and
sellin', nothing about riding. Evidence of a flat market for bicycles.
Only 4 things have any significant affect on cycling performance,
-fit-bike fit
-fat-lackthereof on you
-fitness-being fit
-finesse-ridning/training/racing smart

all else is mostly bugleoil.

Thanks for a forthright explanation. Since the bike fits well, and seems
now to work decently, I guess I'll stick if I can buy it.

I've spoken to many other 'civilians' who tried biking only to give it
up. Every time, and I mean EVERY time they say its because they are in
pain doing it. A friend of mine tried several bikes and then bought a
$1,200 'comfort' bike (?) which was so heavy that she couldn't ride
faster than a walk. All hills defeated her. Now you can't get her back
on a bike at all.

I was the same until I got some good advice and started playing with my
bike's adjustments plus I got a high end seat. Curiously, the seat I got
has almost no padding while the seat I ditched has a lot.

As far as the 4F's, I'm on #3. I'll worry about #4 maybe someday.

thanks.

-paul
  #30  
Old August 9th 05, 04:25 PM
Paul Cassel
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Posts: n/a
Default Evaulating a bike

Sandy wrote:
Dans le message de ,



Then, there's the recycling effect. If you spend to the moon, and don't
really continue, then you might as well not have spent a dime. So look
around carefully for a guy who has just done that trip, whose wonderbike is
going for a song, and avoid filling that role for someone after you.

Try hard to remember that there are plenty of bikes that will fit you, and
fit is the key to enduring enjoyment and development. You sound, now, to be
all too ready to be sold the magic ride, and while I don't want to dull your
enthusiasm, it will be good to add a measure of reality to your search.


OK, I wish to defend my position here. I am not an equipment junkie in
all sports - just the opposite, but I know that there are some pursuits
which are very equipment sensitive. That means you can't do them well
lacking a minimun equipment level.

I cited skiing as one. When my wife, who was a great skiier (she died)
wanted me to ski, I initially bought some old used equipment - which is
what I thought I may have had in this bike. She pushed me to get
expensive high end stuff which WAS a magic bullet for my skiing. I
skiied much better and enjoyed the sport much more for having spent what
I intially thought a silly amount of money for equipment. My fitness and
skill didn't change, but my outcome did just due to the equipment.

Having had that experience in one sport, and when reading bicycling
magazines I note most of the talk is about equipment (as opposed to
skills) I reasoned that the key to this sport is equipment - or it could
be.

I may be wrong here, but I don't think my reasoning was that outlandish.

-paul
 




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