Tic/Tinkle Noise From Loose Ball Hubs??

jim beam wrote:

how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole? you'd
have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said than done.

struggling to remove dust cover... welded and krazy glued in place...
the nano-scale bonding! The interstitials and the dislocation density!
The very electrons are intermingling... must use Superpowers... must
concentrate: focus all boorishness, rudeness, adolescent immaturity,
acting out, ego, into a single narrow beam to jimmy it out...
concentrate, focus! Use all Superpowers in unison, to form Jerk Beam!
May be able to lift it out... No! Unable to overcome the facts!

Curses. Foiled again. By a dustcap.p

wrote:
I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro rims.
My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rythimic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless of
load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!


'Called bearing flop ad it is the balls smacking each other. A result
of almost no grease in the hubs when new. OVH hubs, add grease. Hubs
cannot get too much grease. Of the goop that oozes out, don't wipe off,
a great sealer for the hubs.

The noise seems to be comming from the loose ball bearings as they bang
into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the balls
apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease reduces the
noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.

This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the noise
is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro Click". I
adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the frame there is
no side to side play at the rim.

This noise is starting to bug me and seems contrary to an otherwise
nice set of wheels. Has anyone else ever noticed a noise like this and
is there any way to get rid of it?

Ed

On 20 Aug 2005 05:38:34 -0700, "41" wrote:


jim beam wrote:

how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole? you'd
have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said than done.

struggling to remove dust cover... welded and krazy glued in place...
the nano-scale bonding! The interstitials and the dislocation density!
The very electrons are intermingling... must use Superpowers... must
concentrate: focus all boorishness, rudeness, adolescent immaturity,
acting out, ego, into a single narrow beam to jimmy it out...
concentrate, focus! Use all Superpowers in unison, to form Jerk Beam!
May be able to lift it out... No! Unable to overcome the facts!

Curses. Foiled again. By a dustcap.p

Thank you. That was so much more graceful, elegant and funny than the post I was
about to write.

Ron

RonSonic wrote:
On 20 Aug 2005 05:38:34 -0700, "41" wrote:


jim beam wrote:

how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole?
you'd have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said
than done.

struggling to remove dust cover... welded and krazy glued in place...
the nano-scale bonding! The interstitials and the dislocation
density! The very electrons are intermingling... must use
Superpowers... must concentrate: focus all boorishness, rudeness,
adolescent immaturity, acting out, ego, into a single narrow beam to
jimmy it out... concentrate, focus! Use all Superpowers in unison,
to form Jerk Beam! May be able to lift it out... No! Unable to
overcome the facts!

Curses. Foiled again. By a dustcap.p

Thank you. That was so much more graceful, elegant and funny than the
post I was about to write.

I just figured he was channeling Gene Daniels.

Jasper Janssen wrote:
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:29:37 -0700, jim beam wrote:


you "doubt" but you don't know? for a bearing expert jobst, you seem to
know remarkably little on this subject.


Way to go with the vendetta there, man.

so either you like being b.s.ed or you don't know you're being b.s.ed?



are you advocating the use of a bearing cage for cup & cone axles? if
so, it shows that you've never actually serviced a wheel bearing
contrary to all your "expert advice" on this subject because if you had,
you'd know that it would be impossible to get the bearing balls in or
out if they were held with a cage.


Uhm, what the ****? Almost all cup/cone wheel bearing are in cages. It's
only some high end ones like the aforementioned Dura Ace (And hell, quite
possibly all Shimano down to Tourney, I don't know and I don't care,
that's still high end compared to most stuff on the road worldwide) use
loose bearings, probably primarily to fit in the extra ball (a 7 ball cage
typically takes up as much space as 8 loose balls).

you don't know and you don't care, but you're prepared to state that
"almost all" hub bearings are caged? then you state that all high end
stuff down to low end stuff uses loose bearings??? you're making no sense.

my statement is based on the fact that of all the hubs i've worked on in
the last 30+ years, only the sealed bearing hubs have ever had cages.
that means all the campy, suntour, normandy, sturmey-archer, suzue,
ofmega etc,. and of course shimano, have been loose ball.


If you're trying to convince me that jobst is the one who's never seen the
inside of a hub instead of you, you're doing a pretty damn ****-poor job
of it, let me tell you.

show me a cup & cone caged ball hub bearing then!



Jasper

41 wrote:
jim beam wrote:


how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole? you'd
have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said than done.


struggling to remove dust cover... welded and krazy glued in place...
the nano-scale bonding! The interstitials and the dislocation density!
The very electrons are intermingling... must use Superpowers... must
concentrate: focus all boorishness, rudeness, adolescent immaturity,
acting out, ego, into a single narrow beam to jimmy it out...
concentrate, focus! Use all Superpowers in unison, to form Jerk Beam!
May be able to lift it out... No! Unable to overcome the facts!

Curses. Foiled again. By a dustcap.p


dust caps are thin & weak. they are not designed for removal. attempts
to do so damage or destroy them. as you'd know if you'd ever bothered
to try.

but let's imagine for a moment that you actually /did/ bother. what
next - it's all dented & messed up! where are you going to get spares
from? will there be room for the cage? are you going to abandon the
cage project and just force the damaged dust cap back in anyway and not
worry about sealing or appearance? will you call jobst for expert advice?

making stuff up and trying to force an argument out of it makes you look
like an idiot, idiot.

Ed Ness writes:

Thanks for the tip. When holding the wheel horizontal the noise
goes away almost completely! As soon as the wheel is rotated
vertical the tinkle noise comes back. Very strange.

How regular is the sound? If it is a once-around of the wheel, it
could be debris inside the rim. As I said I can't hear it so I can
only guess. Bearing balls make a fairly solid tick-tick sound and at
fairly uniform intervals, especially if the bearing has a slight
clearance so that rising balls bear on each other and fall over the top
at a constant rate.

Makes me think the cones are too loose but I can't feel any slop if
I wiggle the rim with the wheel clamped in the frame. I'm using
Shimano brand grease, the green stuff, which I think should be fine.

The best way to test of bearing clearance is to have the wheel in hand
and rotate the axle between thumb and forefinger. It should turn freely
but without slop. The reason is that the QR when tightened, reduces
that clearance and gives the bearing some preload.

I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub! This would be a great solution if it works!

Scrap that idea. I was thinking of BB bearings that also use 1/4"
balls but have 11 of them and work well with a cage. Your cup and
cone will not accept a cage. Sorry about the bum steer.

Jobst Brandt

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:06:03 GMT,
wrote:

[snip]

I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub! This would be a great solution if it works!

Scrap that idea. I was thinking of BB bearings that also use 1/4"
balls but have 11 of them and work well with a cage. Your cup and
cone will not accept a cage. Sorry about the bum steer.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

No fuss, no quibbling, no evasion, no rancour, no wild
inflation of a molehill into a mountain--thanks for the
lesson in how to handle a mistake gracefully.

Carl Fogel

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:37:48 -0700, jim beam wrote:

dust caps are thin & weak. they are not designed for removal. attempts
to do so damage or destroy them. as you'd know if you'd ever bothered
to try.

Right, right, all dust caps on all hubs are weak and not designed for
removal. I can't speak for Shimano Dura Ace FH-7700, but most hubs I've
ever had to work on had dust caps that were more than sturdy enough to be
removed with a little care[1], and I do so as a matter of course when
overhauling my hubs. I think every one of the hubs I own also uses caged
bearings, incidentally, but that may be a fluke. Now, aged and embrittled
plastic dustcaps on cotterless cranks -- especially steel ones, which rust
shut -- those are hard to get off intact.

So far, your emphatic shouting only serves to underscore what a pathetic
wrench you are even compared to me, and I'm not that good.


Jasper

[1] Sometimes, it takes destroying the bearing cage to get that out first,
admittedly. But those are standard.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:54:22 -0700, jim beam wrote:
Jasper Janssen wrote:

Way to go with the vendetta there, man.

so either you like being b.s.ed or you don't know you're being b.s.ed?

If you start out in a thread with personal insults, it's not about who's
right or who's wrong -- you lose by default.

Uhm, what the ****? Almost all cup/cone wheel bearing are in cages. It's
only some high end ones like the aforementioned Dura Ace (And hell, quite
possibly all Shimano down to Tourney, I don't know and I don't care,
that's still high end compared to most stuff on the road worldwide) use
loose bearings, probably primarily to fit in the extra ball (a 7 ball cage
typically takes up as much space as 8 loose balls).

you don't know and you don't care, but you're prepared to state that
"almost all" hub bearings are caged? then you state that all high end
stuff down to low end stuff uses loose bearings??? you're making no sense.

my statement is based on the fact that of all the hubs i've worked on in
the last 30+ years, only the sealed bearing hubs have ever had cages.
that means all the campy, suntour, normandy, sturmey-archer, suzue,
ofmega etc,. and of course shimano, have been loose ball.

If you're trying to convince me that jobst is the one who's never seen the
inside of a hub instead of you, you're doing a pretty damn ****-poor job
of it, let me tell you.

show me a cup & cone caged ball hub bearing then!

Open up any Sturmey Archer hub and you'll find caged bearings. The fact
that you claim they're not is ridiculous on the face of it. The cage is
clearly visible on the left he
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer.html#how

Also try any coaster brake hub, for instance. Sturmey and coasters take
care of the majority of the worldwide bike market right there.


Jasper