Blinded

On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 05:45:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 03/09/15 21:38, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:08:27 +1000, James
wrote:

On 03/09/15 11:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a
drink and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was
getting dark, but I could still see where I was going, even without
lights. I was heading against the general flow of bikes on a
shared path, and almost all were sporting very bright headlights
that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet
back streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen
light only, and there was enough ambient light I could still easily
see where I was going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the
German bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people
riding bicycles.

This is more of a rider issue than a light issue. Most of the
handlebar all-in-one lights have multiple settings, including a low
beam in the 100-200 lumen range. When I'm using a battery light and
not my dyno on a MUP, I put it on the lowest setting and point it
down. Many denizens of the MUPs and cycle tracks are idiots and run
their lights at full output all the time and point them up the road,
regardless of other bicycle traffic. You want to stop and backhand
them.

Flashers are another matter because, from what I can tell, they flash
at full output or near full output, and even a fairly well aimed
light will blind you in a close passing situation. IME, tail lights
are either limp and unnoticeable or incredibly distracting. I find
myself passing other cyclists in heavy traffic just to get away from
retina blasting tail lights. They are an incredible annoyance to
other bicyclists.

I have a very strong rear flasher, but it pulses and doesn't flash,
and it has output settings. I only run it at the highest output in
rain storms.


If the lights commonly in use had a low beam *with* a horizontal cut
off, and people forgot to switch from high beam symmetric to low beam
with cut off on shared paths, I would agree that it was a rider issue
rather than a light issue. However, riders want to see the path, so
they aim the light with a symmetric beam to see the path, and end up
blind others because the beam shape is not appropriate. Most people
don't want to keep adjusting where their light is aiming, or even
switching between power levels - therefore it is a light design issue.

To put it another way, if I aimed my dynamo powered light at people's
faces, they would be blinded too, but then I couldn't see the path well
either, so by aiming my light to see the path best, I also don't blind
other people. It's a win-win!

I've asked the question before. If I aim my cheap Chinese handlebar
mounted light so that I can see the road it is substantially below the
sight line of any auto driver. On the other hand if I aimed it to
blind auto drivers I wouldn't be able to see the road.

"Curiouser and curiouser!" cried Alice.

It depends on how crisp the edges of the beam are, or in other words how
much spill there is outside the central lobe.

I have mates with symmetrical beam lights who have them aimed at the
road, yet road signs are illuminated half a kilometre down the road.

Yes, that is true, but "illuminated" is not necessarily "blindingly
bright".

But since this subject, "blindingly bright lights", first arose I've
been looking at the brightest reflection from my Cree "headlight" and
it is at about the height of the tail lights on most sedans, which is
somewhat below the driver's eye plane.

I also did some tests the other evening. We parked my wife's car in
the lane and I moved my bike, with the lights on and aimed downward as
though I wanted to see the pavement ahead of me and then pushed the
bike toward my wife, seated in the car.

She says that my light never became overly bright.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 04/09/15 09:48, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 05:45:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 03/09/15 21:38, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:08:27 +1000, James
wrote:

On 03/09/15 11:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a
drink and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was
getting dark, but I could still see where I was going, even without
lights. I was heading against the general flow of bikes on a
shared path, and almost all were sporting very bright headlights
that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet
back streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen
light only, and there was enough ambient light I could still easily
see where I was going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the
German bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people
riding bicycles.

This is more of a rider issue than a light issue. Most of the
handlebar all-in-one lights have multiple settings, including a low
beam in the 100-200 lumen range. When I'm using a battery light and
not my dyno on a MUP, I put it on the lowest setting and point it
down. Many denizens of the MUPs and cycle tracks are idiots and run
their lights at full output all the time and point them up the road,
regardless of other bicycle traffic. You want to stop and backhand
them.

Flashers are another matter because, from what I can tell, they flash
at full output or near full output, and even a fairly well aimed
light will blind you in a close passing situation. IME, tail lights
are either limp and unnoticeable or incredibly distracting. I find
myself passing other cyclists in heavy traffic just to get away from
retina blasting tail lights. They are an incredible annoyance to
other bicyclists.

I have a very strong rear flasher, but it pulses and doesn't flash,
and it has output settings. I only run it at the highest output in
rain storms.


If the lights commonly in use had a low beam *with* a horizontal cut
off, and people forgot to switch from high beam symmetric to low beam
with cut off on shared paths, I would agree that it was a rider issue
rather than a light issue. However, riders want to see the path, so
they aim the light with a symmetric beam to see the path, and end up
blind others because the beam shape is not appropriate. Most people
don't want to keep adjusting where their light is aiming, or even
switching between power levels - therefore it is a light design issue.

To put it another way, if I aimed my dynamo powered light at people's
faces, they would be blinded too, but then I couldn't see the path well
either, so by aiming my light to see the path best, I also don't blind
other people. It's a win-win!

I've asked the question before. If I aim my cheap Chinese handlebar
mounted light so that I can see the road it is substantially below the
sight line of any auto driver. On the other hand if I aimed it to
blind auto drivers I wouldn't be able to see the road.

"Curiouser and curiouser!" cried Alice.

It depends on how crisp the edges of the beam are, or in other words how
much spill there is outside the central lobe.

I have mates with symmetrical beam lights who have them aimed at the
road, yet road signs are illuminated half a kilometre down the road.

Yes, that is true, but "illuminated" is not necessarily "blindingly
bright".

But since this subject, "blindingly bright lights", first arose I've
been looking at the brightest reflection from my Cree "headlight" and
it is at about the height of the tail lights on most sedans, which is
somewhat below the driver's eye plane.

I also did some tests the other evening. We parked my wife's car in
the lane and I moved my bike, with the lights on and aimed downward as
though I wanted to see the pavement ahead of me and then pushed the
bike toward my wife, seated in the car.

She says that my light never became overly bright.

That's good. I doubt many cyclists go to such lengths to test their
lights though. Many just want to be seen at all costs.

--
JS

On 9/3/2015 7:48 PM, John B. wrote:

... But since this subject, "blindingly bright lights", first arose I've
been looking at the brightest reflection from my Cree "headlight" and
it is at about the height of the tail lights on most sedans, which is
somewhat below the driver's eye plane.

By "headlight" I assume you're talking about a flashlight?

I also did some tests the other evening. We parked my wife's car in
the lane and I moved my bike, with the lights on and aimed downward as
though I wanted to see the pavement ahead of me and then pushed the
bike toward my wife, seated in the car.

She says that my light never became overly bright.

Good idea to test it. I'm amazed at how few people bother to do that to
see what their lights look like to others.

So if you maintain that same tilt, you'll probably not blind others.
That's good.

If that thing is a flashlight with a symmetrical beam, then based on my
experience, you won't see the road nearly as well as with a StVZO
compliant lamp. But if you're OK with what you've got, that's fine.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:53:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 09:48, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 05:45:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 03/09/15 21:38, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:08:27 +1000, James
wrote:

On 03/09/15 11:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a
drink and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was
getting dark, but I could still see where I was going, even without
lights. I was heading against the general flow of bikes on a
shared path, and almost all were sporting very bright headlights
that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet
back streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen
light only, and there was enough ambient light I could still easily
see where I was going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the
German bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people
riding bicycles.

This is more of a rider issue than a light issue. Most of the
handlebar all-in-one lights have multiple settings, including a low
beam in the 100-200 lumen range. When I'm using a battery light and
not my dyno on a MUP, I put it on the lowest setting and point it
down. Many denizens of the MUPs and cycle tracks are idiots and run
their lights at full output all the time and point them up the road,
regardless of other bicycle traffic. You want to stop and backhand
them.

Flashers are another matter because, from what I can tell, they flash
at full output or near full output, and even a fairly well aimed
light will blind you in a close passing situation. IME, tail lights
are either limp and unnoticeable or incredibly distracting. I find
myself passing other cyclists in heavy traffic just to get away from
retina blasting tail lights. They are an incredible annoyance to
other bicyclists.

I have a very strong rear flasher, but it pulses and doesn't flash,
and it has output settings. I only run it at the highest output in
rain storms.


If the lights commonly in use had a low beam *with* a horizontal cut
off, and people forgot to switch from high beam symmetric to low beam
with cut off on shared paths, I would agree that it was a rider issue
rather than a light issue. However, riders want to see the path, so
they aim the light with a symmetric beam to see the path, and end up
blind others because the beam shape is not appropriate. Most people
don't want to keep adjusting where their light is aiming, or even
switching between power levels - therefore it is a light design issue.

To put it another way, if I aimed my dynamo powered light at people's
faces, they would be blinded too, but then I couldn't see the path well
either, so by aiming my light to see the path best, I also don't blind
other people. It's a win-win!

I've asked the question before. If I aim my cheap Chinese handlebar
mounted light so that I can see the road it is substantially below the
sight line of any auto driver. On the other hand if I aimed it to
blind auto drivers I wouldn't be able to see the road.

"Curiouser and curiouser!" cried Alice.

It depends on how crisp the edges of the beam are, or in other words how
much spill there is outside the central lobe.

I have mates with symmetrical beam lights who have them aimed at the
road, yet road signs are illuminated half a kilometre down the road.

Yes, that is true, but "illuminated" is not necessarily "blindingly
bright".

But since this subject, "blindingly bright lights", first arose I've
been looking at the brightest reflection from my Cree "headlight" and
it is at about the height of the tail lights on most sedans, which is
somewhat below the driver's eye plane.

I also did some tests the other evening. We parked my wife's car in
the lane and I moved my bike, with the lights on and aimed downward as
though I wanted to see the pavement ahead of me and then pushed the
bike toward my wife, seated in the car.

She says that my light never became overly bright.

That's good. I doubt many cyclists go to such lengths to test their
lights though. Many just want to be seen at all costs.

Well, actually it wasn't an experiment to see if my lights were o.k. I
was trying to determine why all this excitement about blinding drivers
and I am now firmly convinced that the problem isn't with the lamps it
is with the cyclists.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 20:39:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/3/2015 7:48 PM, John B. wrote:

... But since this subject, "blindingly bright lights", first arose I've
been looking at the brightest reflection from my Cree "headlight" and
it is at about the height of the tail lights on most sedans, which is
somewhat below the driver's eye plane.

By "headlight" I assume you're talking about a flashlight?

Yup :-)

I also did some tests the other evening. We parked my wife's car in
the lane and I moved my bike, with the lights on and aimed downward as
though I wanted to see the pavement ahead of me and then pushed the
bike toward my wife, seated in the car.

She says that my light never became overly bright.

Good idea to test it. I'm amazed at how few people bother to do that to
see what their lights look like to others.

So if you maintain that same tilt, you'll probably not blind others.
That's good.

If that thing is a flashlight with a symmetrical beam, then based on my
experience, you won't see the road nearly as well as with a StVZO
compliant lamp. But if you're OK with what you've got, that's fine.

I doubt that it is as effective as a light built to some sort of
specification but it certainly is cheaper :-) And, as I think I've
written I used to commute in Japan with a sidewall generator powered
light that gave off a faint yellow glow. Compared to that my LED
flashlight gives a wondrous light.. and will last the night :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

My headlight is on a swivel on my handlebar, convenient for an old-fashioned high-beam flash manuever.About half of the on-coming bright-eyes get it, and dim appropriately. For the rest, verbal admonitions or imprecations follow. Lately though, I often just sing to them: "I Saw The Light" for continuous beams, "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" for the flashers.

rod

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
I rode to South Bank yesterday evening, to meet some friends for a drink
and burritos. By the time I was half way there it was getting dark, but
I could still see where I was going, even without lights. I was heading
against the general flow of bikes on a shared path, and almost all were
sporting very bright headlights that I found blinding.

There are no overhanging branches. The path gives way to quiet back
streets. I rode home late at night with a **** weak be seen light only,
and there was enough ambient light I could still easily see where I was
going and who/what else was on the path.

Each time that sort of thing happens, it rams home to me that the German
bicycle lighting standards make sense for 99% of people riding bicycles.
--
JS

Headlights are not only to be seen but also to see with. That makes bright headlights advantageous.

The problem is that unlike cars which have their headlights set at the factory, bicycle lighting systems are self installed. And most people set them to look too far ahead with an egotistical idea of their own speed. This has the bad effects of NOT showing the road directly in front of your wheel and of being so high that they blind on-coming traffic.

On a ride last night I had to twist the rear-view mirror off-line to keep from being blinded by bicycle headlights.

So get the brightest headlight you can get but point in down.

On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 5:20:47 PM UTC+1, wrote:

So get the brightest headlight you can get but point in down.

There are lamps generally available out there that could be used as a bicycle lamp, and some sold as bicycle lamps too, that are already too strong for responsible road use, all at very reasonable prices. That wasn't the case until a few years ago. The upshot is that the ignorant and the careless will be in an even better position to irritate or blind oncoming motorists, and leading cyclists too. I have a torch with a Crre Q5 that if used careless could cause more accidents than it prevents. It makes me think that the Cree T6 variety, now sometimes pushed as an on-road lamp, is bound to be way over the top.

Andre Jute
A little though goes a long way

On 04/09/15 20:59, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:53:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 09:48, John B. wrote:


She says that my light never became overly bright.

That's good. I doubt many cyclists go to such lengths to test their
lights though. Many just want to be seen at all costs.

Well, actually it wasn't an experiment to see if my lights were o.k. I
was trying to determine why all this excitement about blinding drivers
and I am now firmly convinced that the problem isn't with the lamps it
is with the cyclists.

You've checked one light and you now deduce that all lights ok? Wow.

--
JS

On Mon, 7 Sep 2015 10:48:45 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 20:59, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:53:52 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/09/15 09:48, John B. wrote:


She says that my light never became overly bright.

That's good. I doubt many cyclists go to such lengths to test their
lights though. Many just want to be seen at all costs.

Well, actually it wasn't an experiment to see if my lights were o.k. I
was trying to determine why all this excitement about blinding drivers
and I am now firmly convinced that the problem isn't with the lamps it
is with the cyclists.

You've checked one light and you now deduce that all lights ok? Wow.

No I don't mean that. But I believe that I did ascertain that is a
light is aimed slightly downward so that it illuminates the pavement,
which I am assuming is what a bicycle light is for - so you can see
the road - it doesn't shine in automobile drivers eyes and blind them.
--
cheers,

John B.