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  #171  
Old June 8th 20, 03:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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On Sunday, 7 June 2020 21:53:24 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2020 9:28 PM, James wrote:
On 6/6/20 1:54 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:


What matters is total gear range for a given task or terrain.
Minimizing percent change between gears is far, far less critical. But
that's what the industry has been selling for a long time.


That's why I find it frustrating to ride my gravel bike at times on the
road compared to my road bike.¬* The percent change between gears on the
gravel bike in the vicinity of gearing that I want to use on the road is
bigger than on my road bike and consequently I cannot find a gear that
is close to right.


I think it's obvious that people have different tolerances for that.
Perhaps it's due in part to their habitual levels of exertion - that is,
faster people are more likely to demand exactly the right gear ratio.

But then there's my fast friend who seldom shifts her gears...

--
- Frank Krygowski


So, why doesn't she ride a single speed an get rid of all the extraneous weight of the derailleur system?

Cheers
Ads
  #172  
Old June 8th 20, 03:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
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On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 6:29:06 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 6/6/20 1:54 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:


What matters is total gear range for a given task or terrain. Minimizing
percent change between gears is far, far less critical. But that's what
the industry has been selling for a long time.


That's why I find it frustrating to ride my gravel bike at times on the
road compared to my road bike. The percent change between gears on the
gravel bike in the vicinity of gearing that I want to use on the road is
bigger than on my road bike and consequently I cannot find a gear that
is close to right.


Same here, plus tire drag. Oddly, the industry is selling us wide-range cassettes. On my Roubaix and my gravel bike, I opted out of the OE super wide-range cassettes.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-...ext=90620-0244 An $11K racing bike with a 36/30 low. The industry is trying to sell us bikes with low gears! I'm outraged!

-- Jay Beattie.








  #173  
Old June 8th 20, 03:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
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On 6/7/2020 9:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 5:10:26 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm noting who is being tolerant of others' choices and who is not.

When I saw Wolfgang's photo, I thought "Hmm. His handlebar bag is
tilted. Mine are level. Looks like that bike has done some real
traveling! Oh, he's got a kickstand like my friend Jim. Hmm, what's that
headlight? Wow, he tilts his saddle a lot." Then I clicked away.

Not a bit of that was deprecatory. But others' reflex seemed to be "You
should ride what I ride!"


I thought it looked like a dirty beater. I could hear the thing rattle, and the chain rings look like they're shark-toothed. Tape is shot, rear fender broken, and wash the thing. Even my commuter is in better shape, and I'm known for deferred maintenance. If he just got back from a trans-Siberia ride, I get it, but if that is just a riding around bike, Lou needs to give him some tips.

And for just riding around, do you really have a handlebar bag that big? You could put two Chihuahuas in there.


On two bikes, yes I do. Volume increases roughly as the cube of
dimensions. Weight increases roughly as the square of dimensions. In
terms of carrying capacity per gram weight, a larger bag can be more
efficient.

I've got smaller bags on a couple other bikes, one of which I've often
ridden to the grocery. It's frustrated me more than once.

But if your "riding around" bike is never used for anything practical,
you're free to omit bags entirely. YMMV.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #174  
Old June 8th 20, 03:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
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On 6/7/2020 10:06 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 7 June 2020 21:53:24 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2020 9:28 PM, James wrote:
On 6/6/20 1:54 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:


What matters is total gear range for a given task or terrain.
Minimizing percent change between gears is far, far less critical. But
that's what the industry has been selling for a long time.

That's why I find it frustrating to ride my gravel bike at times on the
road compared to my road bike.¬* The percent change between gears on the
gravel bike in the vicinity of gearing that I want to use on the road is
bigger than on my road bike and consequently I cannot find a gear that
is close to right.


I think it's obvious that people have different tolerances for that.
Perhaps it's due in part to their habitual levels of exertion - that is,
faster people are more likely to demand exactly the right gear ratio.

But then there's my fast friend who seldom shifts her gears...

--
- Frank Krygowski


So, why doesn't she ride a single speed an get rid of all the extraneous weight of the derailleur system?


That would be the difference between "seldom shifts her gears" and
"_never_ shifts her gears." I'm sure the latter is not acceptable to her.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #175  
Old June 8th 20, 03:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
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On Sun, 7 Jun 2020 19:06:03 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 7 June 2020 21:53:24 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2020 9:28 PM, James wrote:
On 6/6/20 1:54 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:


What matters is total gear range for a given task or terrain.
Minimizing percent change between gears is far, far less critical. But
that's what the industry has been selling for a long time.

That's why I find it frustrating to ride my gravel bike at times on the
road compared to my road bike.* The percent change between gears on the
gravel bike in the vicinity of gearing that I want to use on the road is
bigger than on my road bike and consequently I cannot find a gear that
is close to right.


I think it's obvious that people have different tolerances for that.
Perhaps it's due in part to their habitual levels of exertion - that is,
faster people are more likely to demand exactly the right gear ratio.

But then there's my fast friend who seldom shifts her gears...

--
- Frank Krygowski


So, why doesn't she ride a single speed an get rid of all the extraneous weight of the derailleur system?

Cheers


Some people do. They even save more weight by not having brakes :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #176  
Old June 8th 20, 04:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
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On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 7:20:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2020 9:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 5:10:26 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm noting who is being tolerant of others' choices and who is not.

When I saw Wolfgang's photo, I thought "Hmm. His handlebar bag is
tilted. Mine are level. Looks like that bike has done some real
traveling! Oh, he's got a kickstand like my friend Jim. Hmm, what's that
headlight? Wow, he tilts his saddle a lot." Then I clicked away.

Not a bit of that was deprecatory. But others' reflex seemed to be "You
should ride what I ride!"


I thought it looked like a dirty beater. I could hear the thing rattle, and the chain rings look like they're shark-toothed. Tape is shot, rear fender broken, and wash the thing. Even my commuter is in better shape, and I'm known for deferred maintenance. If he just got back from a trans-Siberia ride, I get it, but if that is just a riding around bike, Lou needs to give him some tips.

And for just riding around, do you really have a handlebar bag that big? You could put two Chihuahuas in there.


On two bikes, yes I do. Volume increases roughly as the cube of
dimensions. Weight increases roughly as the square of dimensions. In
terms of carrying capacity per gram weight, a larger bag can be more
efficient.

I've got smaller bags on a couple other bikes, one of which I've often
ridden to the grocery. It's frustrated me more than once.

But if your "riding around" bike is never used for anything practical,
you're free to omit bags entirely. YMMV.


Hmmm. I've been commuting to work for 45 years without a handlebar bag. Fifty-three years of daily commuting if you count commuting to school. I did use some small panniers for a couple years. I'd need a trailer to do our family shopping -- and I sold the trailer after my son grew out of it. I usually carry a small backpack for trips to work or the hardware store. I can walk to our supermarket.

One can be an authentic, practical, transportational cyclist without a bunch of crap clamped to his or her bike -- and last-century equipment. I see no reason to lug around a rattling boat anchor festooned with empty bags, kickstands, spring saddles, goose neck stems, map holders, etc., etc. Its just more stuff I have to slug up the hills on the way home. https://tinyurl.com/yaudcffy On fast rides, I have jersey pockets -- which are large enough for packing my raincoat, which is of modern design and not oiled duck with sealskin collar, requiring a separate bag. Showers Pass. Portland Ory-gun. It's the best.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #177  
Old June 8th 20, 09:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 824
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On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 2:10:26 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2020 2:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/7/2020 10:09 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 5:04:30 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 7 June 2020 10:53:16 UTC-4, jbeattie¬* wrote:
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 3:35:42 AM UTC-7, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 5 Jun 2020 21:31:26 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/5/2020 7:32 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

I own and ride a road bike equipped with a an Ultegra 3x10 group
from
2010 (6703, AFAIR) and I'm quite happy with it.¬* Changing gears ist
easy, fast and works like a charm. Except when it it doesn't.
Problem
is, the construction is a mechanical nightmare. I bought it
specifically
because both cables (bowden cable?), both those for braking and
those
for changing gears are routed along the handle bar, so that there is
enough space between the handles to moutn a large Ortlieb
handlebar bag.
Have look at
https://pluspora.com/posts/296e60b0625701384a38005056264835, fifth
picture or
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20200416/DSC01809.jpg

Changing the inner cable is difficult, when one of the wires is
already
broken. Somehow I damaged an tiny spring while removing the old
cable.
In consequence, the whole expensive grip had to be replaced.

...

But mainly, I'd really like to get rid of all those arkwardly routed
cables, which break much to often.

Interesting. I have always used large handlebar bags on (almost) all
bikes.

So do I.

197x ff: https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/loire1.jpg
1996-2010: https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/IMG-2461.JPG

Gadzooks. No offense, but that last photo looks like a dumpster find
-- except for the undoubtedly expensive hydro rim brakes. What do
you use for a fun, fast ride? I hope you at least remove the kickstand.

-- Jay Beattie.

Wolfgang Strobl, in regards to IMG_2461, how do you stay on t hat
saddle? Don't your arms get sore?

Cheers

That puzzles me too.

Lou


Well and truly, people like what they like. Inexplicably.


I'm noting who is being tolerant of others' choices and who is not.

When I saw Wolfgang's photo, I thought "Hmm. His handlebar bag is
tilted. Mine are level. Looks like that bike has done some real
traveling! Oh, he's got a kickstand like my friend Jim. Hmm, what's that
headlight? Wow, he tilts his saddle a lot." Then I clicked away.

Not a bit of that was deprecatory. But others' reflex seemed to be "You
should ride what I ride!"

--
- Frank Krygowski


You draw strange conclusions again. A forward tilted saddle as much as you see on the photo puts a lot of strain on you arms. Sir asked an honest question about that and I was replying that that puzzles me too. How is that the same as 'you should ride what I ride'? And of course you are claiming to be not judgemental yourself ever.

Lou

Lou
  #178  
Old June 8th 20, 03:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Wolfgang Strobl[_3_]
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Posts: 44
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Am Sun, 7 Jun 2020 07:17:07 -0700 (PDT) schrieb Sir Ridesalot
:

On Sunday, 7 June 2020 06:35:42 UTC-4, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Snipped
The owner of a bicycle shop, whom I consulted for getting a replacement
shifter tried to convince me to use a an older shifter, he called them
"Wäscheleinenschalthebel", clotheeslines shifter, because these didn't
have this - to him - well known reliability problem. For me, this
wasn't an option, because I very much rely on my large handle bar bag.

My wife rides a Scott bicycle with the older 105 3x10 version of the
group, which actually has these clotheslines.

https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/scott.png

She actually would like to have a decent handlebar bag, too, but alas,
that's not possible her. On the positive side, those shifters work
flawlessly, so far.

Snipped

I've seen people using those exposed "clothesline" shifter
cable housings to clip their route crib sheets to. they put
the sheets inside a clear plastic cover and then use a couple of
binder clips to clip them to those cable housings.


That's a nice idea in general, but not in our case.

More than 40 years ago, that Kofac bag I used on my Peugeot came with a
foldable plastic cover. It was sufficiently large to use a Michelin map
without folding the map.

https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/loire3b.png

Since about 2005, I use various GPS based devices for navigation,
starting with a Pocket PC based device originally built for car
navigation, but equally usefull on the bicycle. Starting 2008,I used a
Garmin GSMap 60 Csx on top of the Ortlib handlebar bag - Ortlieb has a
watertight plastik container for the top of the bag. Currently I use the
somewhat newer 64s on a mount on the ahead set, without a cover (the
plasic bag gets blind and the Garmin device is waterproof, anyway).

My wife uses a Rixen & Kaul handlebar bag which sits on top of the
handle bar, which is large enough for keepping a mobile phone, wallet,
keys, and some sheets of paper. Usually, I create some color copies
from old and new paper cards using our laser printer, clipped to the
region where we intend to ride. Usually, she folds the current one one
and keeps it in a pocket one top of that tiny bag.

https://www.velofred.com/product_info.php?products_id=235

So there isn't really a need for a larger paper map on her bike, and I
haven't used paper maps on my bike in the last 15 years.


Some other people apparently have use the noodles from
V-brakes to direct those cable housings away from their
handlebar bag.

https://thecrazyrandonneur.wordpress...-sti-shifters/


Tought about that, for planning this years vaccation that wasn't, but
abadonned the idea. Her handlebar is 38 cm wide, instead of the usual
42 cm, like the one on my bike. There just isn't enough space between
the two handles. In addition, shifting works quite well. I'd rather buy
a new bike than changing a working system into one I'm not really
trusting to work well after a change. Anyway, she didn't like the idea,
either.


--
Wir danken f√ľr die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen
  #179  
Old June 8th 20, 04:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
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On 6/7/2020 11:47 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 7:20:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2020 9:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 5:10:26 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm noting who is being tolerant of others' choices and who is not.

When I saw Wolfgang's photo, I thought "Hmm. His handlebar bag is
tilted. Mine are level. Looks like that bike has done some real
traveling! Oh, he's got a kickstand like my friend Jim. Hmm, what's that
headlight? Wow, he tilts his saddle a lot." Then I clicked away.

Not a bit of that was deprecatory. But others' reflex seemed to be "You
should ride what I ride!"

I thought it looked like a dirty beater. I could hear the thing rattle, and the chain rings look like they're shark-toothed. Tape is shot, rear fender broken, and wash the thing. Even my commuter is in better shape, and I'm known for deferred maintenance. If he just got back from a trans-Siberia ride, I get it, but if that is just a riding around bike, Lou needs to give him some tips.

And for just riding around, do you really have a handlebar bag that big? You could put two Chihuahuas in there.


On two bikes, yes I do. Volume increases roughly as the cube of
dimensions. Weight increases roughly as the square of dimensions. In
terms of carrying capacity per gram weight, a larger bag can be more
efficient.

I've got smaller bags on a couple other bikes, one of which I've often
ridden to the grocery. It's frustrated me more than once.

But if your "riding around" bike is never used for anything practical,
you're free to omit bags entirely. YMMV.


Hmmm. I've been commuting to work for 45 years without a handlebar bag. Fifty-three years of daily commuting if you count commuting to school. I did use some small panniers for a couple years.


OK, that's fine. I commuted to work for a little over 30 years with a
handlebar bag before I retired. So why are you making fun of my choice?

I'd need a trailer to do our family shopping -- and I sold the trailer after my son grew out of it. I usually carry a small backpack for trips to work or the hardware store. I can walk to our supermarket.


Our closest supermarket is a somewhat unpleasant 1.5 mile walk away, so
we don't do that. Our more pleasant bike route there is 3.5 miles, and
we return by a different pleasant route. I don't use a trailer; instead,
open-top panniers, my grossly huge and outlandish handlebar bag, my
wife's handlebar bag, and I strap stuff above the panniers. We sometimes
buy in smaller quantities because of that, but still I've carried on one
trip more than Tom can afford.

One can be an authentic, practical, transportational cyclist without a bunch of crap clamped to his or her bike...


And one can commute on a unicycle, or unicycle home from the grocery
while juggling your oranges. Perhaps that meets your standard for
"practical," but not mine.

There have been countless times I've gone out for a recreational ride
and decided on the way home to grab takeout food, a book from a
bookstore, something from the hardware store, etc. And yes, I've carried
friends' jackets when their delicate machines gave them no place to
store them. I appreciate the carrying capacity that allows that.

That works for me. If the weight of a handlebar bag will overstress your
delicate body or your delicate machine, adjust as necessary.

P.S. I can't wait to discuss my Karrimor saddlebag! ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #180  
Old June 8th 20, 04:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
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On 6/8/2020 4:23 AM, wrote:
On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 2:10:26 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2020 2:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/7/2020 10:09 AM,
wrote:
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 5:04:30 PM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 7 June 2020 10:53:16 UTC-4, jbeattie¬* wrote:
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 3:35:42 AM UTC-7, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 5 Jun 2020 21:31:26 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/5/2020 7:32 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

I own and ride a road bike equipped with a an Ultegra 3x10 group
from
2010 (6703, AFAIR) and I'm quite happy with it.¬* Changing gears ist
easy, fast and works like a charm. Except when it it doesn't.
Problem
is, the construction is a mechanical nightmare. I bought it
specifically
because both cables (bowden cable?), both those for braking and
those
for changing gears are routed along the handle bar, so that there is
enough space between the handles to moutn a large Ortlieb
handlebar bag.
Have look at
https://pluspora.com/posts/296e60b0625701384a38005056264835, fifth
picture or
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20200416/DSC01809.jpg

Changing the inner cable is difficult, when one of the wires is
already
broken. Somehow I damaged an tiny spring while removing the old
cable.
In consequence, the whole expensive grip had to be replaced.

...

But mainly, I'd really like to get rid of all those arkwardly routed
cables, which break much to often.

Interesting. I have always used large handlebar bags on (almost) all
bikes.

So do I.

197x ff: https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/loire1.jpg
1996-2010: https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/IMG-2461.JPG

Gadzooks. No offense, but that last photo looks like a dumpster find
-- except for the undoubtedly expensive hydro rim brakes. What do
you use for a fun, fast ride? I hope you at least remove the kickstand.

-- Jay Beattie.

Wolfgang Strobl, in regards to IMG_2461, how do you stay on t hat
saddle? Don't your arms get sore?

Cheers

That puzzles me too.

Lou


Well and truly, people like what they like. Inexplicably.


I'm noting who is being tolerant of others' choices and who is not.

When I saw Wolfgang's photo, I thought "Hmm. His handlebar bag is
tilted. Mine are level. Looks like that bike has done some real
traveling! Oh, he's got a kickstand like my friend Jim. Hmm, what's that
headlight? Wow, he tilts his saddle a lot." Then I clicked away.

Not a bit of that was deprecatory. But others' reflex seemed to be "You
should ride what I ride!"

--
- Frank Krygowski


You draw strange conclusions again. A forward tilted saddle as much as you see on the photo puts a lot of strain on you arms. Sir asked an honest question about that and I was replying that that puzzles me too. How is that the same as 'you should ride what I ride'?


I'm certainly more accepting of Wolfgang's choices than Jay! (Sir's and
your posts were not really disapproving, I admit.) But I assume that
anyone who tours by bike, as he obviously does, has a pretty good idea
of what works for him. I'd never call someone's good bike a "dumpster
find."

About the saddle: It looks like it may be suspended by rear springs, but
I can't be sure. If that's true, it's probably more level when his
weight is on it.

And of course you are claiming to be not judgemental yourself ever.


Nobody's perfect, and of course I have some definite opinions. And we
obviously have different standards and priorities. We should be able to
discuss these.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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