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#62
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Prayer request
On Thursday, June 18, 2020 at 12:46:04 PM UTC-5, Radey Shouman wrote:
What's the source of any human behavior? Either it's God or it's not -- there is no reason to separate moral/ethical codes from anything else. Simple: it's not. Morality is an evolved trait, and it is observed in some non-human species (primates, for one). |
#63
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Prayer request
On Thursday, June 18, 2020 at 5:55:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
The First Amendment "Establishment" and "Free Exercise" clauses mean that the government cannot advance one religion over another religion, or religion over non-religion. That's what a *secular* government is. If I am a member of the government I have every right to exercise my religion and to openly tout it should I prefer. What other people think of that is another thing altogether. You certainly have the right to exercise your religion, and even to tout it.. But you may not do so while in the uniform of your government office or during government functions, because that gives the appearance of advancing ("establishing") your religion with the backing of the government. |
#64
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#65
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#66
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Prayer request
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:53:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 6/18/2020 6:55 PM, wrote: ... Some black telling me that I invented slavery is going to get a fist in his nose. Hmm. That's not very Christian. Well, Tommy did specify that all a Christian has to do is believe in God and do unto others, etc. Thus if he is happy with a fist in his nose then I suppose that he is free to hand them out too. -- cheers, John B. |
#67
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#68
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Prayer request
On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 03:42:48 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2020 6:43 PM, wrote: On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 3:11:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/17/2020 2:48 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote: Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."? "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia? "The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772? "God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle." - George Washington "In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783) "With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775 Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day. Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson, your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and state and was even called an infidel. Of course, there are various opinions about what Jefferson believed. You're correct about his thoughts on Jesus, but "Deist" currently implies some things he probably didn't accept. And then you have to account for his (like anyone's) changing beliefs over time. I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either. I doubt very much that we can ever understand what really went on there. Relationships are incredibly complex in modern times with modern mores. They were no less complex back then. Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa. OK, something I don't quite understand: Among many other "sins," the government defines murder as being its business. But as I understand it, there are religious sects that have condoned murder, or at least killing of certain individuals; and not just in easy cases like self defense. This has been true in at least some situations for at least some Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other sects or sub-sects. But of course, there's disagreement. Most religions do not condone murder. Some oppose even capital punishment. So if our government says "You can't murder people," isn't that adopting a certain religious viewpoint and disregarding another? We could ask (or could have asked) the same question regarding stores opening on Sunday, liquor sales, polygamy, some types of gambling, child marriage, homosexual acts and more. Isn't "good" vs. "bad" often a judgment based on religious views? - Frank Krygowski Frank, I think that you'd agree that my punching you in the mouth would be bad on your part and that you would hope that it is against my religious principles which it is. My problem is that from your comments you do not appear to have any principles beyond your own good. And that is pretty much the definition of atheist. As is often - or usually - the case, Tom, you are completely mistaken. And the funny thing is that atheists can have an even more strongly developed moral code than religious people. They just have to develop it from first principles, rather than just being told that some bearded man in the sky will pitch you into a lake of fire if you’re not nice to your fellow man. You know, I've worked in some very primitive areas, in W. Papua the people were literally stone age savages, and in every place they have had Gods. Not, perhaps, Christian Gods but some sort of "higher entity". I wonder, is it a part of being modern and civilized that one becomes an Atheist? -- cheers, John B. |
#69
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Prayer request
On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 7:38:25 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 03:42:48 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2020 6:43 PM, wrote: On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 3:11:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/17/2020 2:48 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote: Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."? "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia? "The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772? "God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle." - George Washington "In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783) "With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775 Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day. Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson, your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and state and was even called an infidel. Of course, there are various opinions about what Jefferson believed. You're correct about his thoughts on Jesus, but "Deist" currently implies some things he probably didn't accept. And then you have to account for his (like anyone's) changing beliefs over time. I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either. I doubt very much that we can ever understand what really went on there. Relationships are incredibly complex in modern times with modern mores. They were no less complex back then. Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa. OK, something I don't quite understand: Among many other "sins," the government defines murder as being its business. But as I understand it, there are religious sects that have condoned murder, or at least killing of certain individuals; and not just in easy cases like self defense. This has been true in at least some situations for at least some Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other sects or sub-sects. But of course, there's disagreement. Most religions do not condone murder. Some oppose even capital punishment. So if our government says "You can't murder people," isn't that adopting a certain religious viewpoint and disregarding another? We could ask (or could have asked) the same question regarding stores opening on Sunday, liquor sales, polygamy, some types of gambling, child marriage, homosexual acts and more. Isn't "good" vs. "bad" often a judgment based on religious views? - Frank Krygowski Frank, I think that you'd agree that my punching you in the mouth would be bad on your part and that you would hope that it is against my religious principles which it is. My problem is that from your comments you do not appear to have any principles beyond your own good. And that is pretty much the definition of atheist. As is often - or usually - the case, Tom, you are completely mistaken. And the funny thing is that atheists can have an even more strongly developed moral code than religious people. They just have to develop it from first principles, rather than just being told that some bearded man in the sky will pitch you into a lake of fire if you’re not nice to your fellow man. You know, I've worked in some very primitive areas, in W. Papua the people were literally stone age savages, and in every place they have had Gods. Not, perhaps, Christian Gods but some sort of "higher entity". I wonder, is it a part of being modern and civilized that one becomes an Atheist? -- cheers, John B. Progressive insight perhaps? Any religion started at some point, no? Lou |
#70
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Prayer request
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 23:34:08 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 7:38:25 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote: On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 03:42:48 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/18/2020 6:43 PM, wrote: On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 3:11:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/17/2020 2:48 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote: Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain in alienable rights."? "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia? "The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772? "God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle." - George Washington "In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783) "With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775 Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day. Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson, your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and state and was even called an infidel. Of course, there are various opinions about what Jefferson believed. You're correct about his thoughts on Jesus, but "Deist" currently implies some things he probably didn't accept. And then you have to account for his (like anyone's) changing beliefs over time. I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either. I doubt very much that we can ever understand what really went on there. Relationships are incredibly complex in modern times with modern mores. They were no less complex back then. Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa. OK, something I don't quite understand: Among many other "sins," the government defines murder as being its business. But as I understand it, there are religious sects that have condoned murder, or at least killing of certain individuals; and not just in easy cases like self defense. This has been true in at least some situations for at least some Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other sects or sub-sects. But of course, there's disagreement. Most religions do not condone murder. Some oppose even capital punishment. So if our government says "You can't murder people," isn't that adopting a certain religious viewpoint and disregarding another? We could ask (or could have asked) the same question regarding stores opening on Sunday, liquor sales, polygamy, some types of gambling, child marriage, homosexual acts and more. Isn't "good" vs. "bad" often a judgment based on religious views? - Frank Krygowski Frank, I think that you'd agree that my punching you in the mouth would be bad on your part and that you would hope that it is against my religious principles which it is. My problem is that from your comments you do not appear to have any principles beyond your own good. And that is pretty much the definition of atheist. As is often - or usually - the case, Tom, you are completely mistaken. And the funny thing is that atheists can have an even more strongly developed moral code than religious people. They just have to develop it from first principles, rather than just being told that some bearded man in the sky will pitch you into a lake of fire if you’re not nice to your fellow man. You know, I've worked in some very primitive areas, in W. Papua the people were literally stone age savages, and in every place they have had Gods. Not, perhaps, Christian Gods but some sort of "higher entity". I wonder, is it a part of being modern and civilized that one becomes an Atheist? -- cheers, John B. Progressive insight perhaps? Any religion started at some point, no? Lou Well, it must have :-) But I believe that carvings, which may well indicate belief in a "Mother Goddess" have been found in pre-historic caves so apparently the belief in a "higher Being" dates back possibly to the Middle Paleolithic period, some 300,000 years ago. -- cheers, John B. |
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