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Questions about value of bicycles.



 
 
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  #51  
Old April 16th 21, 03:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Questions about value of bicycles.

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 10:06:07 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 15:24:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 2:27:16 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 1:31:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 9:36:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/15/2021 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 7:12:05 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 08:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 7:55:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 4:07:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:07:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 6:56:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 9:50:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/12/2021 8:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

snip
I sold a couple of bikes just before Covid19 and I discovered that it is hard to sell a bike via the Dutch craiglist for a reasonable price if it doesn't have disc brakes, if not CF and for a ATB also is not 29". I think your bike would go for around 1500-200- euro over here. I tried to sell this bike:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1dSJW6DxfgCTYJxXA
In the U.S., nearly everyone buying a new higher-end road bike wants
disc brakes whether it makes sense or not.

Electronic shifting is not necessarily seen as a plus by many buyers
because of the hassle of battery charging, and the extra complexity that
it adds.

Same in the U.S. regarding ATBs, a 26" wheeled ATB has almost no value,
though 27.5" sells well for shorter riders.

Tom needs to find all this out for himself, everyone here explaining
reality to him will have no effect. It's not uncommon for people to have
unrealistic ideas about what their used stuff is worth.
I will ask you again Scharf - what do you know about bicycles. Over and over again, on this group you are completely unable to make a single technically correct comment on bicycles.
And you have problems installing a Bottom Bracket and haven't yet
solved the problems with the head bearings... So, what do you know
about bicycles?

John, carefully explain to everyone here what you know about high end bicycles and how you learned it? The bottom bracket tool for installing the BB did not get shipped with it and a Park Tool substitute cost more than simply taking it to the shop. What makes you think that the headset once received didn't get easily installed? Please tell me how you now choose a correct headset with about two dozen standards?
Tell us Tom what is the mechanical difference between a high end and a
low end bicycle? Disregarding the wheels they both have two moving
parts and you had/have problems assembling both of them?
--
Cheers,

John B.
If that's what you think we need no longer include you in any conversation regarding modern technology.
What modern "technology" are we talking about here? The bottom
bracket? Two bearings and a shaft through the bearings? Or the
incredibly complex head bearings? You know, the gizmo that has two
bearings with the tube sticking through them?

As an aside, Tom's "modern technology has been used on bicycles for at
least a hundred and thirty years :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...0s_a nd_1890s
--
Cheers,

John B.
Yes John, you have shown over and over just how much you know about anything with two wheels on it.
Well Tommy I built a bike from the raw tubes and lugs and remarkably I
had no problems whatsoever installing the bottom bracket and the head
bearings. And I don't have 200 pounds of tools to cart around either.

Tell everyone here what an acetylene torch weighs with the bottles.

There are a lot of cylinder sizes, including mini 'wearable'
setups (those are not shown in this link).

https://weldersequipmentinc.com/uplo...37239..jpg?706
China Freight -- and not the low-cost option, either. https://www.harborfreight.com/portab...&cid=go_social About 20 years ago, they were selling something similar at Costco -- along with some cheap Lincoln stick welders.
Jay, please don't hand out that kind of crap when I actually built motorcycle dragsters and know what is required. To properly fit the tubes you need a milling machine though you could do a half ass job with a very well built drill press. You can't just stick the tubes into the lugs and silver solder them so you need a HEAVY jig to put everything and KEEP everything in alignment during the soldering or brazing. John is lying through his teeth because that is all he ever does, Crew chiefs are crew chiefs because they can't do anything themselves.
How many times do we have to go through this? Do you even remember the last time we had this discussion? To refresh your memory, Proteus -- even Bike Warehouse -- sold frame building kits for home builders. Were you asleep during the 70s-80s? Muzi regaled us with stories of hand-building with no lathe. Here, read the Proteus book: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/re...oteus-bicycles Go to page 17 "Mitering the Tubes." No HEAVY jigs, no lathes.

I worked with a frame builder who didn't use a lathe, although he had templates that were made on a lathe (and got a lathe some years later). I cut and mitered the tubes on my last steel racing frame with a hacksaw, file and a template that was close, but the tube still had to be hand-filed to get the angle just right. It was brazed together on a brazing stand with no HEAVY jigs and checked routinely on a surface plate. It was dead-on accurate.

Tons of people home-built their bikes in the 70s and early 80s. John was a welder and I see no reason why he couldn't braze a steel frame. It's not rocket science. In fact, brazing is a snooze job for a good welder.

-- Jay Beattie.

If you worked with a "frame builder" that didn't use a mill or a heavy jig what were you doing? Defending him in lawsuits for endangering every person that bought a frame from him? Quit trying to bull**** your way out of this. What gave you the idea that John could braze or that he was a welder? That's the same kind of crap that John has been handing out since he got here. He claims to have been a crew chief understand? All he did was take the flight maintenance writeups from the crew and call the people that COULD do things. If he worked at a job outside of his retirement from the service it was probably paperwork because they needed someone that could speak English. I'm not trying to knock John other than he is bull****ting everything he comments on. I was in the Air Force remember? I know what crew chiefs were.

Ah well, I have said that I was a certified aircraft welder, haven't
I? Perhaps you don't know that a "certified welder" is?

As for being a "crew chief" how in the world would you know what a
"crew chief" did. You enlisted in, what? About 1962? That is ten years
after I joined and certainly 7 years after I was a crew chief? Do you
have any idea what aircraft maintenance was like before the A.F. went
to the "specialized Maintenance" system? Do you even know that there
was a system before the Air Force copied the so called "specialized
Maintenance" system from the commercial airlines?

But of course you are an expert in the Air force, after all you have
stated that you served in at least two A.F. units that never existed.


Commercial airlines were copied because the previous system didn't work. Crew chiefs did exactly the same thing from the Army Air Corp in WW II. You can continue to harp on your bull**** or continue on with the fact that I had a concussion that removed details like which Air Force command I served under but that doesn't change the fact that being a "certified aircraft welder" doesn't mean a hell of a lot. So are every one of the mechanics at Kaiser Air and if they had structural damage to their planes the FACTORY would send out people. Those older aircraft like you B50 had even greater stresses on them because structural engineering still hadn't caught up with power or aerodynamic loads.
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  #52  
Old April 16th 21, 05:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Questions about value of bicycles.

On 4/15/2021 9:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/15/2021 7:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/15/2021 8:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 4:31:19 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
There is serious cost in building a massive frame
fixture. You need to produce and sell
a large number of frames to amortize that cost. For a
very low production volume it's not worth
doing and absolutely not necessary.

I've known several people who have built steel frames, At
least two of those guys were
mechanical engineers, including a good friend of mine
whom I consider to be the smartest
engineer I ever worked with. (We were in grad school
together, and later I hired him to teach in
our program.) He did workshops on frame building at LAW
conventions, back when they had
LAW conventions.

That guy built absolutely beautiful (concours d'elegance
winning) single frames, plus several
tandems. Others built recumbents from instructions or, in
one case, from the builder's own design. None of them
used massive frame plates.

Tom's made it very clear that in addition to being a
bumbling mechanic, he has little
understanding of the economics of manufacturing,

...** You never really know what's under the paint -- or
whether the joints are filled and not over-heated.* I've
seen beautiful bikes fall apart -- and bikes that were not
so beautiful after you stripped off the paint (e.g.
dynafile dings filled with brass in '70s Ritchey frames).


That brings up an interesting point: We can assess the
beauty of a frame according to our individual taste. But how
do you know any particular frame is really good? What
matters in that evaluation?

If I stripped the paint off a well-used frame and saw a ding
filled with brass, I don't think it would bother me,
assuming it hadn't caused a failure. OTOH, overheating tubes
can lead to failure - but how does one tell before the
failure occurs?

I'm the guy whose custom tandem had its fork blades suddenly
break off. The builder, Jim Bradford, substituted track gage
fork blades in place of tandem gage blades. I never bothered
to weigh the fork, let alone X-ray it, so that defect was
hidden from me.

The blades broke maybe half an inch below the fork crown. I
can't say if that was evidence of overheating as well. Given
that the wall thickness was 1/3 what it should have been,
any overheating was probably just icing on the cake.


I don't know either.

Sprint track blades were the same beefy 1.2mm gauge as tandem blades
then.* On a tandem though, round blades are not ideal as the blade flex
is against a smaller section (22mm? 24mm?) than a 29mm classic oval
blade. Riders here are already familiar with normal fork flex and
tandems have a lot more of that.

Pursuit blades at 0.8mm (or even 0.9) would not be a very good choice at
all in vintage material for a road tandem.


I just measured the broken fork blade's wall thickness. I get 0.7mm. And
these were 22mm round, not oval.

After the crash, I was on the phone with Jack Goertz of Tandems, Ltd. He
said he had told Jim Bradford his forks were too flimsy, but Bradford
didn't listen. I assume Jack was talking about ones with normal wall
thickness, not this stupid-light version.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #53  
Old April 16th 21, 05:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Questions about value of bicycles.

On 4/15/2021 9:49 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 8:49:31 p.m. UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/15/2021 8:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 4:31:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
There is serious cost in building a massive frame fixture. You need to produce and sell
a large number of frames to amortize that cost. For a very low production volume it's not worth
doing and absolutely not necessary.

I've known several people who have built steel frames, At least two of those guys were
mechanical engineers, including a good friend of mine whom I consider to be the smartest
engineer I ever worked with. (We were in grad school together, and later I hired him to teach in
our program.) He did workshops on frame building at LAW conventions, back when they had
LAW conventions.

That guy built absolutely beautiful (concours d'elegance winning) single frames, plus several
tandems. Others built recumbents from instructions or, in one case, from the builder's own design. None of them used massive frame plates.

Tom's made it very clear that in addition to being a bumbling mechanic, he has little
understanding of the economics of manufacturing,

... You never really know what's under the paint -- or whether the joints are filled and not over-heated. I've seen beautiful bikes fall apart -- and bikes that were not so beautiful after you stripped off the paint (e.g. dynafile dings filled with brass in '70s Ritchey frames).


That brings up an interesting point: We can assess the beauty of a frame
according to our individual taste. But how do you know any particular
frame is really good? What matters in that evaluation?

If I stripped the paint off a well-used frame and saw a ding filled with
brass, I don't think it would bother me, assuming it hadn't caused a
failure. OTOH, overheating tubes can lead to failure - but how does one
tell before the failure occurs?

I'm the guy whose custom tandem had its fork blades suddenly break off.
The builder, Jim Bradford, substituted track gage fork blades in place
of tandem gage blades. I never bothered to weigh the fork, let alone
X-ray it, so that defect was hidden from me.

The blades broke maybe half an inch below the fork crown. I can't say if
that was evidence of overheating as well. Given that the wall thickness
was 1/3 what it should have been, any overheating was probably just
icing on the cake.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Did you sue the builder?


No. The bike was decades old when the forks finally failed. I tried
looking for Jim Bradford and was told he had fled to Canada.

Even if he were nearby, a lawsuit would not have made sense. Our
injuries were minor, as was the damage to the bike. (We were waiting for
friends to catch up with us and pedaling only about 10 mph.) The
replacement fork was not expensive.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #54  
Old April 16th 21, 05:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Questions about value of bicycles.

On 4/15/2021 10:38 PM, John B. wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot. In some places they may still use an acetylene
generator a sort of tank thing that you put calcium carbide and water
in and if it is working right it generates acetylene... if it is not
working right it likely blows up :-)


Probably the most exciting type of bike headlight!

Anyone here ever use a carbide lamp? (Astonishingly, I haven't.)

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #55  
Old April 16th 21, 05:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Questions about value of bicycles.

On 4/15/2021 11:11 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 13:31:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 9:36:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/15/2021 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 7:12:05 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 08:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 7:55:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 4:07:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:07:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 6:56:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 9:50:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/12/2021 8:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

snip
I sold a couple of bikes just before Covid19 and I discovered that it is hard to sell a bike via the Dutch craiglist for a reasonable price if it doesn't have disc brakes, if not CF and for a ATB also is not 29". I think your bike would go for around 1500-200- euro over here. I tried to sell this bike:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1dSJW6DxfgCTYJxXA
In the U.S., nearly everyone buying a new higher-end road bike wants
disc brakes whether it makes sense or not.

Electronic shifting is not necessarily seen as a plus by many buyers
because of the hassle of battery charging, and the extra complexity that
it adds.

Same in the U.S. regarding ATBs, a 26" wheeled ATB has almost no value,
though 27.5" sells well for shorter riders.

Tom needs to find all this out for himself, everyone here explaining
reality to him will have no effect. It's not uncommon for people to have
unrealistic ideas about what their used stuff is worth.
I will ask you again Scharf - what do you know about bicycles. Over and over again, on this group you are completely unable to make a single technically correct comment on bicycles.
And you have problems installing a Bottom Bracket and haven't yet
solved the problems with the head bearings... So, what do you know
about bicycles?

John, carefully explain to everyone here what you know about high end bicycles and how you learned it? The bottom bracket tool for installing the BB did not get shipped with it and a Park Tool substitute cost more than simply taking it to the shop. What makes you think that the headset once received didn't get easily installed? Please tell me how you now choose a correct headset with about two dozen standards?
Tell us Tom what is the mechanical difference between a high end and a
low end bicycle? Disregarding the wheels they both have two moving
parts and you had/have problems assembling both of them?
--
Cheers,

John B.
If that's what you think we need no longer include you in any conversation regarding modern technology.
What modern "technology" are we talking about here? The bottom
bracket? Two bearings and a shaft through the bearings? Or the
incredibly complex head bearings? You know, the gizmo that has two
bearings with the tube sticking through them?

As an aside, Tom's "modern technology has been used on bicycles for at
least a hundred and thirty years :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...0s_a nd_1890s
--
Cheers,

John B.
Yes John, you have shown over and over just how much you know about anything with two wheels on it.
Well Tommy I built a bike from the raw tubes and lugs and remarkably I
had no problems whatsoever installing the bottom bracket and the head
bearings. And I don't have 200 pounds of tools to cart around either.

Tell everyone here what an acetylene torch weighs with the bottles.

There are a lot of cylinder sizes, including mini 'wearable'
setups (those are not shown in this link).

https://weldersequipmentinc.com/uplo...237239.jpg?706
China Freight -- and not the low-cost option, either. https://www.harborfreight.com/portab...&cid=go_social About 20 years ago, they were selling something similar at Costco -- along with some cheap Lincoln stick welders.


Jay, please don't hand out that kind of crap when I actually built motorcycle dragsters and know what is required. To properly fit the tubes you need a milling machine though you could do a half ass job with a very well built drill press. You can't just stick the tubes into the lugs and silver solder them so you need a HEAVY jig to put everything and KEEP everything in alignment during the soldering or brazing. John is lying through his teeth because that is all he ever does, Crew chiefs are crew chiefs because they can't do anything themselves.


You may have built motorcycle dragsters (although I doubt it) but you
certainly aren't a competent machinist. You can, or at least I can,
fit bicycle tubes using nothing but a hacksaw and a file although I
did, when I built that frame, use a vertical milling machine to rough
cut the tubes and finished them with a file.
As for heavy jigs... well have a look at this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWcWrjdB2Ao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMUq2ioes9Y


Interesting videos, thanks.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #56  
Old April 16th 21, 07:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Questions about value of bicycles.

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 3:47:56 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/15/2021 5:24 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 2:27:16 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 1:31:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 9:36:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/15/2021 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 7:12:05 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 08:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 7:55:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 4:07:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:07:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 6:56:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 9:50:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/12/2021 8:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

snip
I sold a couple of bikes just before Covid19 and I discovered that it is hard to sell a bike via the Dutch craiglist for a reasonable price if it doesn't have disc brakes, if not CF and for a ATB also is not 29". I think your bike would go for around 1500-200- euro over here. I tried to sell this bike:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1dSJW6DxfgCTYJxXA
In the U.S., nearly everyone buying a new higher-end road bike wants
disc brakes whether it makes sense or not.

Electronic shifting is not necessarily seen as a plus by many buyers
because of the hassle of battery charging, and the extra complexity that
it adds.

Same in the U.S. regarding ATBs, a 26" wheeled ATB has almost no value,
though 27.5" sells well for shorter riders.

Tom needs to find all this out for himself, everyone here explaining
reality to him will have no effect. It's not uncommon for people to have
unrealistic ideas about what their used stuff is worth.
I will ask you again Scharf - what do you know about bicycles. Over and over again, on this group you are completely unable to make a single technically correct comment on bicycles.
And you have problems installing a Bottom Bracket and haven't yet
solved the problems with the head bearings... So, what do you know
about bicycles?

John, carefully explain to everyone here what you know about high end bicycles and how you learned it? The bottom bracket tool for installing the BB did not get shipped with it and a Park Tool substitute cost more than simply taking it to the shop. What makes you think that the headset once received didn't get easily installed? Please tell me how you now choose a correct headset with about two dozen standards?
Tell us Tom what is the mechanical difference between a high end and a
low end bicycle? Disregarding the wheels they both have two moving
parts and you had/have problems assembling both of them?
--
Cheers,

John B.
If that's what you think we need no longer include you in any conversation regarding modern technology.
What modern "technology" are we talking about here? The bottom
bracket? Two bearings and a shaft through the bearings? Or the
incredibly complex head bearings? You know, the gizmo that has two
bearings with the tube sticking through them?

As an aside, Tom's "modern technology has been used on bicycles for at
least a hundred and thirty years :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...0s_a nd_1890s
--
Cheers,

John B.
Yes John, you have shown over and over just how much you know about anything with two wheels on it.
Well Tommy I built a bike from the raw tubes and lugs and remarkably I
had no problems whatsoever installing the bottom bracket and the head
bearings. And I don't have 200 pounds of tools to cart around either.

Tell everyone here what an acetylene torch weighs with the bottles..

There are a lot of cylinder sizes, including mini 'wearable'
setups (those are not shown in this link).

https://weldersequipmentinc.com/uplo...237239.jpg?706
China Freight -- and not the low-cost option, either. https://www.harborfreight.com/portab...&cid=go_social About 20 years ago, they were selling something similar at Costco -- along with some cheap Lincoln stick welders.
Jay, please don't hand out that kind of crap when I actually built motorcycle dragsters and know what is required. To properly fit the tubes you need a milling machine though you could do a half ass job with a very well built drill press. You can't just stick the tubes into the lugs and silver solder them so you need a HEAVY jig to put everything and KEEP everything in alignment during the soldering or brazing. John is lying through his teeth because that is all he ever does, Crew chiefs are crew chiefs because they can't do anything themselves.
How many times do we have to go through this? Do you even remember the last time we had this discussion? To refresh your memory, Proteus -- even Bike Warehouse -- sold frame building kits for home builders. Were you asleep during the 70s-80s? Muzi regaled us with stories of hand-building with no lathe. Here, read the Proteus book: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/re...oteus-bicycles Go to page 17 "Mitering the Tubes." No HEAVY jigs, no lathes.

I worked with a frame builder who didn't use a lathe, although he had templates that were made on a lathe (and got a lathe some years later). I cut and mitered the tubes on my last steel racing frame with a hacksaw, file and a template that was close, but the tube still had to be hand-filed to get the angle just right. It was brazed together on a brazing stand with no HEAVY jigs and checked routinely on a surface plate. It was dead-on accurate.

Tons of people home-built their bikes in the 70s and early 80s. John was a welder and I see no reason why he couldn't braze a steel frame. It's not rocket science. In fact, brazing is a snooze job for a good welder.

-- Jay Beattie.

If you worked with a "frame builder" that didn't use a mill or a heavy jig what were you doing? Defending him in lawsuits for endangering every person that bought a frame from him? Quit trying to bull**** your way out of this. What gave you the idea that John could braze or that he was a welder? That's the same kind of crap that John has been handing out since he got here. He claims to have been a crew chief understand? All he did was take the flight maintenance writeups from the crew and call the people that COULD do things. If he worked at a job outside of his retirement from the service it was probably paperwork because they needed someone that could speak English. I'm not trying to knock John other than he is bull****ting everything he comments on. I was in the Air Force remember? I know what crew chiefs were.

I hand miter tubes because it's much faster than the setup
time on a lathe. Much faster.

My frame plate is a massive chunk of steel but I built
frames before I made that and several famous builders ran
their whole careers with simple straightedge, level and
machinist's protractor:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NAGASA2X.JPG

If your facility is doing large numbers of frames in
batches, better tooling pays in time saved:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/bassoworks.jpg

For one-offs such as custom builds or repairs it's not clear
to me at all.


As a one time semi-practicing machinist, I would be be very interested in how you could miter a tube with a lath. I can think of a couple of ways but it would all require so much tooling that it would be cheaper to buy a mill..
  #57  
Old April 17th 21, 12:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Questions about value of bicycles.

On 4/16/2021 1:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 3:47:56 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/15/2021 5:24 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 2:27:16 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 1:31:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 9:36:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/15/2021 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 7:12:05 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 08:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 7:55:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 4:07:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:07:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 6:56:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 9:50:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/12/2021 8:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

snip
I sold a couple of bikes just before Covid19 and I discovered that it is hard to sell a bike via the Dutch craiglist for a reasonable price if it doesn't have disc brakes, if not CF and for a ATB also is not 29". I think your bike would go for around 1500-200- euro over here. I tried to sell this bike:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1dSJW6DxfgCTYJxXA
In the U.S., nearly everyone buying a new higher-end road bike wants
disc brakes whether it makes sense or not.

Electronic shifting is not necessarily seen as a plus by many buyers
because of the hassle of battery charging, and the extra complexity that
it adds.

Same in the U.S. regarding ATBs, a 26" wheeled ATB has almost no value,
though 27.5" sells well for shorter riders.

Tom needs to find all this out for himself, everyone here explaining
reality to him will have no effect. It's not uncommon for people to have
unrealistic ideas about what their used stuff is worth.
I will ask you again Scharf - what do you know about bicycles. Over and over again, on this group you are completely unable to make a single technically correct comment on bicycles.
And you have problems installing a Bottom Bracket and haven't yet
solved the problems with the head bearings... So, what do you know
about bicycles?

John, carefully explain to everyone here what you know about high end bicycles and how you learned it? The bottom bracket tool for installing the BB did not get shipped with it and a Park Tool substitute cost more than simply taking it to the shop. What makes you think that the headset once received didn't get easily installed? Please tell me how you now choose a correct headset with about two dozen standards?
Tell us Tom what is the mechanical difference between a high end and a
low end bicycle? Disregarding the wheels they both have two moving
parts and you had/have problems assembling both of them?
--
Cheers,

John B.
If that's what you think we need no longer include you in any conversation regarding modern technology.
What modern "technology" are we talking about here? The bottom
bracket? Two bearings and a shaft through the bearings? Or the
incredibly complex head bearings? You know, the gizmo that has two
bearings with the tube sticking through them?

As an aside, Tom's "modern technology has been used on bicycles for at
least a hundred and thirty years :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...0s_a nd_1890s
--
Cheers,

John B.
Yes John, you have shown over and over just how much you know about anything with two wheels on it.
Well Tommy I built a bike from the raw tubes and lugs and remarkably I
had no problems whatsoever installing the bottom bracket and the head
bearings. And I don't have 200 pounds of tools to cart around either.

Tell everyone here what an acetylene torch weighs with the bottles.

There are a lot of cylinder sizes, including mini 'wearable'
setups (those are not shown in this link).

https://weldersequipmentinc.com/uplo...237239.jpg?706
China Freight -- and not the low-cost option, either. https://www.harborfreight.com/portab...&cid=go_social About 20 years ago, they were selling something similar at Costco -- along with some cheap Lincoln stick welders.
Jay, please don't hand out that kind of crap when I actually built motorcycle dragsters and know what is required. To properly fit the tubes you need a milling machine though you could do a half ass job with a very well built drill press. You can't just stick the tubes into the lugs and silver solder them so you need a HEAVY jig to put everything and KEEP everything in alignment during the soldering or brazing. John is lying through his teeth because that is all he ever does, Crew chiefs are crew chiefs because they can't do anything themselves.
How many times do we have to go through this? Do you even remember the last time we had this discussion? To refresh your memory, Proteus -- even Bike Warehouse -- sold frame building kits for home builders. Were you asleep during the 70s-80s? Muzi regaled us with stories of hand-building with no lathe. Here, read the Proteus book: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/re...oteus-bicycles Go to page 17 "Mitering the Tubes." No HEAVY jigs, no lathes.

I worked with a frame builder who didn't use a lathe, although he had templates that were made on a lathe (and got a lathe some years later). I cut and mitered the tubes on my last steel racing frame with a hacksaw, file and a template that was close, but the tube still had to be hand-filed to get the angle just right. It was brazed together on a brazing stand with no HEAVY jigs and checked routinely on a surface plate. It was dead-on accurate.

Tons of people home-built their bikes in the 70s and early 80s. John was a welder and I see no reason why he couldn't braze a steel frame. It's not rocket science. In fact, brazing is a snooze job for a good welder.

-- Jay Beattie.
If you worked with a "frame builder" that didn't use a mill or a heavy jig what were you doing? Defending him in lawsuits for endangering every person that bought a frame from him? Quit trying to bull**** your way out of this. What gave you the idea that John could braze or that he was a welder? That's the same kind of crap that John has been handing out since he got here. He claims to have been a crew chief understand? All he did was take the flight maintenance writeups from the crew and call the people that COULD do things. If he worked at a job outside of his retirement from the service it was probably paperwork because they needed someone that could speak English. I'm not trying to knock John other than he is bull****ting everything he comments on. I was in the Air Force remember? I know what crew chiefs were.

I hand miter tubes because it's much faster than the setup
time on a lathe. Much faster.

My frame plate is a massive chunk of steel but I built
frames before I made that and several famous builders ran
their whole careers with simple straightedge, level and
machinist's protractor:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NAGASA2X.JPG

If your facility is doing large numbers of frames in
batches, better tooling pays in time saved:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/bassoworks.jpg

For one-offs such as custom builds or repairs it's not clear
to me at all.


As a one time semi-practicing machinist, I would be be very interested in how you could miter a tube with a lath. I can think of a couple of ways but it would all require so much tooling that it would be cheaper to buy a mill.


That's true but many people own lathes. A nice Bridgeport
vertical mill (as Bruce Gordon used) is another level of
expense mass and shop space.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #58  
Old April 17th 21, 12:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Questions about value of bicycles.

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:18:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/15/2021 10:38 PM, John B. wrote:

Oh yes, I forgot. In some places they may still use an acetylene
generator a sort of tank thing that you put calcium carbide and water
in and if it is working right it generates acetylene... if it is not
working right it likely blows up :-)


Probably the most exciting type of bike headlight!

Anyone here ever use a carbide lamp? (Astonishingly, I haven't.)



We used carbide "miner's lamps" to blacken sights when I was shooting
on an Air Force pistol team. But, as blackening sights takes only a
second or two we didn't put water in the lamps, just spit in the
carbide section close it up and ignite it and it would burn for a few
seconds.

By the way, carbide generators blow up because acetylene gas explodes
if the pressure reaches something like 29 psi.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #59  
Old April 17th 21, 01:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,638
Default Questions about value of bicycles.


On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 12:18:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Anyone here ever use a carbide lamp? (Astonishingly, I haven't.)


While cleaning the garage a few days ago, I found an orange bag
containing two carbide lamps, a few spare bottoms, and a plastic baby
bottle once used for transporting extra carbide.

Cavers had a lot of uses for lightweight, unbreakable baby bottles in
the sixties. Me, I taped my lunch inside my helmet.

Helmets for cavers weren't the least bit controversial in them days --
aside from being the only way to attach your lamp (there's a slot in
the helmet and a tab on the back of the lamp), anybody who thought
they were un-needed changed his mind right quick when we handed him a
loaner. It helped that cave mud indelibly dyed every scratch and ding
a bright contrast to the plastic.

I think I saw the helmets a decade or so ago. Might still be around.

But *those* lights definitely wouldn't work on bicycles -- no glass in
front of the flame.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


  #60  
Old April 17th 21, 02:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Questions about value of bicycles.

On 4/16/2021 7:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/16/2021 1:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:


As a one time semi-practicing machinist, I would be be very interested
in how you could miter a tube with a lath. I can think of a couple of
ways but it would all require so much tooling that it would be cheaper
to buy a mill.


That's true but many people own lathes. A nice Bridgeport vertical mill
(as Bruce Gordon used) is another level of expense mass and shop space.


I wish I had the shop space for a mill. I do have two metal lathes and
one wood lathe, the latter in semi-storage.

But if I were mitering tubes for one bike frame, I don't think building
much sophisticated tooling would be worthwhile. Something simple,
perhaps, based on using the compound rest to control angles.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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