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  #131  
Old June 11th 21, 09:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Airborne

On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 1:10:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/11/2021 2:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 10:00:54 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 8:39:03 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 6:20:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:28:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This was a terrorism campaign of the highest order.

I understand as a Trumper and Republican, you consider history to be irrelevant. But during WW2, the USA was legally, officially at war with Japan. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. September 2, 1945 is officially V-J day. Victory over Japan. Surrender signed by Japan on that day. Not sure if or when Congress officially signed a war is over document. I looked up the definition of terrorism on Google and it says "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Since the USA was lawfully at war with Japan, Congress passed a law, its not terrorism.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi

Let me give Tom a little slack or sympathy. Calling the fire bombing of Tokyo and other civilians during WW2 bad, awful, evil, mean, terrible, etc. can be argued today. Right or wrong, up or down, left or right, black or white. Answer is....... The US fire bombed Dresden Germany in 1945 was terrible. Justified? The head brass said yes because it demoralized the enemy and hindered their ability to make war implements. I suspect they used the same rationale for Tokyo and Japan too. In hindsight we can debate it. Whether the use of warfare against civilians, non combatants, is correct and right. Is war only supposed to be against the enemies warriors?

Of course all nations demonize their enemies but the Japanese, prior
to 1945 were rather spectacularly bad, partially because they applied
their own standards and traditions to "the enemy". But in the U.S.
they were regarded as evil back stabbers who deserved everything that
might happen to them.

Example from newspapers at the time:

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 19, 1942, stated that:

Since Dec. 7 there has existed an obvious menace to the safety of
this region in the presence of potential saboteurs and fifth
columnists close to oil refineries and storage tanks, airplane
factories, Army posts, Navy facilities, ports and communications
systems. Under normal sensible procedure not one day would have
elapsed after Pearl Harbor before the government had proceeded to
round up and send to interior points all Japanese aliens and their
immediate descendants for classification and possible internment.

Atlanta Constitution editorial dated February 20, 1942, stated that:

The time to stop taking chances with Japanese aliens and
Japanese-Americans has come. . . . While Americans have an inate [sic]
distaste for stringent measures, every one must realize this is a
total war, that there are no Americans running loose in Japan or
Germany or Italy and there is absolutely no sense in this country
running even the slightest risk of a major disaster from enemy groups
within the nation.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 28, 1942, stated that:

As to a considerable number of Japanese, no matter where born,
there is unfortunately no doubt whatever. They are for Japan; they
will aid Japan in every way possible by espionage, sabotage and other
activity; and they need to be restrained for the safety of California
and the United States. And since there is no sure test for loyalty to
the United States, all must be restrained. Those truly loyal will
understand and make no objection.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated April 22, 1943, stated that:

As a race, the Japanese have made for themselves a record for
conscienceless treachery unsurpassed in history. Whatever small
theoretical advantages there might be in releasing those under
restraint in this country would be enormously outweighed by the risks
involved.[

While today, some 70 years after the fact, people may declare the
Tokyo bombing as cruel and terrible, terrible, but in the U.S., in
1945, it was considered as "the right thing to do".

I might add that in 1945 I was 13 years old and an avid reader of war
news and I can remember no instance where a news agency descried the
Tokyo bombing. Even the Nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities was
acceptable as the alternate was seen as, possibly, years of fighting
on the Japanese home islands and the loss of many American lives.

A month after the occupation of Japan General MacArthur was reported
as stating that even then, if the Japanese government lost control
over its people and the millions of former Japanese soldiers took to
guerrilla warfare in the mountains, it could take a million American
troops ten years to master the situation.

German and Italian nationals were interned as well, in
smaller numbers, some probably with cause, most not.

But the numbers didn't work for mass incarceration; Germans
have always been the largest cultural group in the US of A
and no one would seriously advocate locking up 15~18% of
citizens or even a million and a half resident aliens.
The Japanese were not put in concentration camps because of any danger they presented. They were put there because real estate people wanted their property. A large number of these were farms that were sold off for lack of taxes. My friend's family had enough money in the bank to pay their taxes so they still had a home to come back to. But their greenhouse farm had been destroyed by time and lack of maintenance so they eventually built a large home on that site as the city moved around them.
Are you f***** nuts? https://www.archives.gov/historical-.../?dod-date=219 There were opportunists, but the National Association of Realtors was not behind EO 9066.


Jay, I cannot figure out what that is supposed to mean? We SAW the results of family farms of the fourth generation lost to real estate tax sales. Are you saying that the President didn't allow this? That instead it was military commanders whom he in fact was in command of?

Fourth generation? WTF?

In 1942 the Issei and some Nisei owned those properties
(such as the Hood River Valley fruit orchards). My
generation, contemporary with sansei, had not been born yet.
Fourth came a lot later!


Andrew, I'm not clear what you mean. The Japanese started immigrating to the USA circa 1868 during the Meiji reformation. That was 74 years before Roosevelt's concentration camps. Some of the original settlers in much of the Pacific Coast were Chinese and Japanese. Trade with Japan with Anglo-Saxons began in the 1600's.
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  #132  
Old June 11th 21, 09:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Airborne

On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 1:10:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/11/2021 2:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 10:00:54 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 8:39:03 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 6:20:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:28:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This was a terrorism campaign of the highest order.

I understand as a Trumper and Republican, you consider history to be irrelevant. But during WW2, the USA was legally, officially at war with Japan. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. September 2, 1945 is officially V-J day. Victory over Japan. Surrender signed by Japan on that day. Not sure if or when Congress officially signed a war is over document. I looked up the definition of terrorism on Google and it says "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Since the USA was lawfully at war with Japan, Congress passed a law, its not terrorism.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi

Let me give Tom a little slack or sympathy. Calling the fire bombing of Tokyo and other civilians during WW2 bad, awful, evil, mean, terrible, etc. can be argued today. Right or wrong, up or down, left or right, black or white. Answer is....... The US fire bombed Dresden Germany in 1945 was terrible. Justified? The head brass said yes because it demoralized the enemy and hindered their ability to make war implements. I suspect they used the same rationale for Tokyo and Japan too. In hindsight we can debate it. Whether the use of warfare against civilians, non combatants, is correct and right. Is war only supposed to be against the enemies warriors?

Of course all nations demonize their enemies but the Japanese, prior
to 1945 were rather spectacularly bad, partially because they applied
their own standards and traditions to "the enemy". But in the U.S.
they were regarded as evil back stabbers who deserved everything that
might happen to them.

Example from newspapers at the time:

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 19, 1942, stated that:

Since Dec. 7 there has existed an obvious menace to the safety of
this region in the presence of potential saboteurs and fifth
columnists close to oil refineries and storage tanks, airplane
factories, Army posts, Navy facilities, ports and communications
systems. Under normal sensible procedure not one day would have
elapsed after Pearl Harbor before the government had proceeded to
round up and send to interior points all Japanese aliens and their
immediate descendants for classification and possible internment.

Atlanta Constitution editorial dated February 20, 1942, stated that:

The time to stop taking chances with Japanese aliens and
Japanese-Americans has come. . . . While Americans have an inate [sic]
distaste for stringent measures, every one must realize this is a
total war, that there are no Americans running loose in Japan or
Germany or Italy and there is absolutely no sense in this country
running even the slightest risk of a major disaster from enemy groups
within the nation.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 28, 1942, stated that:

As to a considerable number of Japanese, no matter where born,
there is unfortunately no doubt whatever. They are for Japan; they
will aid Japan in every way possible by espionage, sabotage and other
activity; and they need to be restrained for the safety of California
and the United States. And since there is no sure test for loyalty to
the United States, all must be restrained. Those truly loyal will
understand and make no objection.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated April 22, 1943, stated that:

As a race, the Japanese have made for themselves a record for
conscienceless treachery unsurpassed in history. Whatever small
theoretical advantages there might be in releasing those under
restraint in this country would be enormously outweighed by the risks
involved.[

While today, some 70 years after the fact, people may declare the
Tokyo bombing as cruel and terrible, terrible, but in the U.S., in
1945, it was considered as "the right thing to do".

I might add that in 1945 I was 13 years old and an avid reader of war
news and I can remember no instance where a news agency descried the
Tokyo bombing. Even the Nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities was
acceptable as the alternate was seen as, possibly, years of fighting
on the Japanese home islands and the loss of many American lives.

A month after the occupation of Japan General MacArthur was reported
as stating that even then, if the Japanese government lost control
over its people and the millions of former Japanese soldiers took to
guerrilla warfare in the mountains, it could take a million American
troops ten years to master the situation.

German and Italian nationals were interned as well, in
smaller numbers, some probably with cause, most not.

But the numbers didn't work for mass incarceration; Germans
have always been the largest cultural group in the US of A
and no one would seriously advocate locking up 15~18% of
citizens or even a million and a half resident aliens.
The Japanese were not put in concentration camps because of any danger they presented. They were put there because real estate people wanted their property. A large number of these were farms that were sold off for lack of taxes. My friend's family had enough money in the bank to pay their taxes so they still had a home to come back to. But their greenhouse farm had been destroyed by time and lack of maintenance so they eventually built a large home on that site as the city moved around them.
Are you f***** nuts? https://www.archives.gov/historical-.../?dod-date=219 There were opportunists, but the National Association of Realtors was not behind EO 9066.


Jay, I cannot figure out what that is supposed to mean? We SAW the results of family farms of the fourth generation lost to real estate tax sales. Are you saying that the President didn't allow this? That instead it was military commanders whom he in fact was in command of?

Fourth generation? WTF?

In 1942 the Issei and some Nisei owned those properties
(such as the Hood River Valley fruit orchards). My
generation, contemporary with sansei, had not been born yet.
Fourth came a lot later!


FYI, the Hood River Valley fruit orchards were seriously worth owning. https://tinyurl.com/2uv8v2ca (looking towards Mt. Adams); https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2d/c2...bd347002ff.jpg (towards Mt. Hood).. Romanticized? Yes, but not that much. Driving down from Mt. Hood into HRV in spring is really breathtaking. During harvest it is less picturesque, but you can load up on fruit.

-- Jay Beattie.


  #133  
Old June 11th 21, 09:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Airborne

On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 1:12:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/11/2021 2:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 12:36:44 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 10:00:54 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 8:39:03 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 6:20:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:28:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This was a terrorism campaign of the highest order.

I understand as a Trumper and Republican, you consider history to be irrelevant. But during WW2, the USA was legally, officially at war with Japan. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. September 2, 1945 is officially V-J day. Victory over Japan. Surrender signed by Japan on that day. Not sure if or when Congress officially signed a war is over document. I looked up the definition of terrorism on Google and it says "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Since the USA was lawfully at war with Japan, Congress passed a law, its not terrorism.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi

Let me give Tom a little slack or sympathy. Calling the fire bombing of Tokyo and other civilians during WW2 bad, awful, evil, mean, terrible, etc. can be argued today. Right or wrong, up or down, left or right, black or white. Answer is....... The US fire bombed Dresden Germany in 1945 was terrible. Justified? The head brass said yes because it demoralized the enemy and hindered their ability to make war implements. I suspect they used the same rationale for Tokyo and Japan too. In hindsight we can debate it. Whether the use of warfare against civilians, non combatants, is correct and right. Is war only supposed to be against the enemies warriors?

Of course all nations demonize their enemies but the Japanese, prior
to 1945 were rather spectacularly bad, partially because they applied
their own standards and traditions to "the enemy". But in the U.S.
they were regarded as evil back stabbers who deserved everything that
might happen to them.

Example from newspapers at the time:

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 19, 1942, stated that:

Since Dec. 7 there has existed an obvious menace to the safety of
this region in the presence of potential saboteurs and fifth
columnists close to oil refineries and storage tanks, airplane
factories, Army posts, Navy facilities, ports and communications
systems. Under normal sensible procedure not one day would have
elapsed after Pearl Harbor before the government had proceeded to
round up and send to interior points all Japanese aliens and their
immediate descendants for classification and possible internment.

Atlanta Constitution editorial dated February 20, 1942, stated that:

The time to stop taking chances with Japanese aliens and
Japanese-Americans has come. . . . While Americans have an inate [sic]
distaste for stringent measures, every one must realize this is a
total war, that there are no Americans running loose in Japan or
Germany or Italy and there is absolutely no sense in this country
running even the slightest risk of a major disaster from enemy groups
within the nation.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 28, 1942, stated that:

As to a considerable number of Japanese, no matter where born,
there is unfortunately no doubt whatever. They are for Japan; they
will aid Japan in every way possible by espionage, sabotage and other
activity; and they need to be restrained for the safety of California
and the United States. And since there is no sure test for loyalty to
the United States, all must be restrained. Those truly loyal will
understand and make no objection.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated April 22, 1943, stated that:

As a race, the Japanese have made for themselves a record for
conscienceless treachery unsurpassed in history. Whatever small
theoretical advantages there might be in releasing those under
restraint in this country would be enormously outweighed by the risks
involved.[

While today, some 70 years after the fact, people may declare the
Tokyo bombing as cruel and terrible, terrible, but in the U.S., in
1945, it was considered as "the right thing to do".

I might add that in 1945 I was 13 years old and an avid reader of war
news and I can remember no instance where a news agency descried the
Tokyo bombing. Even the Nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities was
acceptable as the alternate was seen as, possibly, years of fighting
on the Japanese home islands and the loss of many American lives.

A month after the occupation of Japan General MacArthur was reported
as stating that even then, if the Japanese government lost control
over its people and the millions of former Japanese soldiers took to
guerrilla warfare in the mountains, it could take a million American
troops ten years to master the situation.

German and Italian nationals were interned as well, in
smaller numbers, some probably with cause, most not.

But the numbers didn't work for mass incarceration; Germans
have always been the largest cultural group in the US of A
and no one would seriously advocate locking up 15~18% of
citizens or even a million and a half resident aliens.
The Japanese were not put in concentration camps because of any danger they presented. They were put there because real estate people wanted their property. A large number of these were farms that were sold off for lack of taxes. My friend's family had enough money in the bank to pay their taxes so they still had a home to come back to. But their greenhouse farm had been destroyed by time and lack of maintenance so they eventually built a large home on that site as the city moved around them.
Are you f***** nuts? https://www.archives.gov/historical-.../?dod-date=219 There were opportunists, but the National Association of Realtors was not behind EO 9066.
I should add - WHERE DID I SAY THAT THIS WAS A NATIONAL EFFORT OF REALTORS? This was almost entirely in California though there were some displace Japanese from Washington and Oregon where local governments would not allow it. In those days there was still governments with integrity.


You said: "The Japanese were not put in concentration camps because of any danger they presented. They were put there because real estate people wanted their property."

That is patently false. You also need to read up on California's alien land act an the post-war efforts to prevent internees from returning to their property -- which had nothing to do with Federal Executive Order authorizing the internment in the first place. In Oregon: https://encyclopedia.densho.org/Kenji_Namba_v._McCourt/ My former partner Alan Hart was one of the lawyers in the Namba case and was a legend in the PNW Issei/Nisei community..

-- Jay Beattie.

Not to mention several dozens of personal memoirs and
biographies of the period, beyond newspapers of the day.

The entire debacle is incredibly well documented.


Andrew, again, I do not follow your point. The fact is that the Japanese were excluded from EVERY area but the concentration camps. If you believe that Roosevelt didn't have full knowledge of that you are sadly mistaken. Also if you believe for one second that he had the slightest Constitutional power to do this with long term US citizens you are mistaken. This was exactly like out latest brush with unConstitutiuonal executive powers - using hysteria that they generated themselves to achieve ends when they didn't have the means.
  #134  
Old June 11th 21, 10:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Airborne

On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 1:55:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 1:10:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/11/2021 2:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 10:00:54 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 8:39:03 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 6:20:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:28:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This was a terrorism campaign of the highest order.

I understand as a Trumper and Republican, you consider history to be irrelevant. But during WW2, the USA was legally, officially at war with Japan. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. September 2, 1945 is officially V-J day. Victory over Japan. Surrender signed by Japan on that day. Not sure if or when Congress officially signed a war is over document. I looked up the definition of terrorism on Google and it says "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Since the USA was lawfully at war with Japan, Congress passed a law, its not terrorism.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi

Let me give Tom a little slack or sympathy. Calling the fire bombing of Tokyo and other civilians during WW2 bad, awful, evil, mean, terrible, etc. can be argued today. Right or wrong, up or down, left or right, black or white. Answer is....... The US fire bombed Dresden Germany in 1945 was terrible. Justified? The head brass said yes because it demoralized the enemy and hindered their ability to make war implements. I suspect they used the same rationale for Tokyo and Japan too. In hindsight we can debate it.. Whether the use of warfare against civilians, non combatants, is correct and right. Is war only supposed to be against the enemies warriors?

Of course all nations demonize their enemies but the Japanese, prior
to 1945 were rather spectacularly bad, partially because they applied
their own standards and traditions to "the enemy". But in the U.S..
they were regarded as evil back stabbers who deserved everything that
might happen to them.

Example from newspapers at the time:

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 19, 1942, stated that:

Since Dec. 7 there has existed an obvious menace to the safety of
this region in the presence of potential saboteurs and fifth
columnists close to oil refineries and storage tanks, airplane
factories, Army posts, Navy facilities, ports and communications
systems. Under normal sensible procedure not one day would have
elapsed after Pearl Harbor before the government had proceeded to
round up and send to interior points all Japanese aliens and their
immediate descendants for classification and possible internment.

Atlanta Constitution editorial dated February 20, 1942, stated that:

The time to stop taking chances with Japanese aliens and
Japanese-Americans has come. . . . While Americans have an inate [sic]
distaste for stringent measures, every one must realize this is a
total war, that there are no Americans running loose in Japan or
Germany or Italy and there is absolutely no sense in this country
running even the slightest risk of a major disaster from enemy groups
within the nation.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 28, 1942, stated that:

As to a considerable number of Japanese, no matter where born,
there is unfortunately no doubt whatever. They are for Japan; they
will aid Japan in every way possible by espionage, sabotage and other
activity; and they need to be restrained for the safety of California
and the United States. And since there is no sure test for loyalty to
the United States, all must be restrained. Those truly loyal will
understand and make no objection.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated April 22, 1943, stated that:

As a race, the Japanese have made for themselves a record for
conscienceless treachery unsurpassed in history. Whatever small
theoretical advantages there might be in releasing those under
restraint in this country would be enormously outweighed by the risks
involved.[

While today, some 70 years after the fact, people may declare the
Tokyo bombing as cruel and terrible, terrible, but in the U.S., in
1945, it was considered as "the right thing to do".

I might add that in 1945 I was 13 years old and an avid reader of war
news and I can remember no instance where a news agency descried the
Tokyo bombing. Even the Nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities was
acceptable as the alternate was seen as, possibly, years of fighting
on the Japanese home islands and the loss of many American lives.

A month after the occupation of Japan General MacArthur was reported
as stating that even then, if the Japanese government lost control
over its people and the millions of former Japanese soldiers took to
guerrilla warfare in the mountains, it could take a million American
troops ten years to master the situation.

German and Italian nationals were interned as well, in
smaller numbers, some probably with cause, most not.

But the numbers didn't work for mass incarceration; Germans
have always been the largest cultural group in the US of A
and no one would seriously advocate locking up 15~18% of
citizens or even a million and a half resident aliens.
The Japanese were not put in concentration camps because of any danger they presented. They were put there because real estate people wanted their property. A large number of these were farms that were sold off for lack of taxes. My friend's family had enough money in the bank to pay their taxes so they still had a home to come back to. But their greenhouse farm had been destroyed by time and lack of maintenance so they eventually built a large home on that site as the city moved around them.
Are you f***** nuts? https://www.archives.gov/historical-.../?dod-date=219 There were opportunists, but the National Association of Realtors was not behind EO 9066.

Jay, I cannot figure out what that is supposed to mean? We SAW the results of family farms of the fourth generation lost to real estate tax sales. Are you saying that the President didn't allow this? That instead it was military commanders whom he in fact was in command of?

Fourth generation? WTF?

In 1942 the Issei and some Nisei owned those properties
(such as the Hood River Valley fruit orchards). My
generation, contemporary with sansei, had not been born yet.
Fourth came a lot later!

FYI, the Hood River Valley fruit orchards were seriously worth owning. https://tinyurl.com/2uv8v2ca (looking towards Mt. Adams); https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2d/c2...bd347002ff.jpg (towards Mt. Hood). Romanticized? Yes, but not that much. Driving down from Mt. Hood into HRV in spring is really breathtaking. During harvest it is less picturesque, but you can load up on fruit.


With the advent of the covid-19 "crisis" my Japanese friends who went through this have been traumatized all over again. To the point that they are seeking to move back to Japan - who will not have them. This is a serious matter and not one to pretend that Roosevelt did know exactly what he was doing and why.

For someone who always seems to take the "Liberal" side I am rather surprised at your belief that this was in any way necessary, desirable or did ANYTHING. The largest racial group gaining military awards in Europe were Japanese Americans (https://encyclopedia.densho.org/Japa..._World_War_II/)
  #135  
Old June 11th 21, 11:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Airborne

On 6/11/2021 4:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 1:55:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 1:10:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/11/2021 2:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 10:00:54 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 8:39:03 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 6:20:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:28:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This was a terrorism campaign of the highest order.

I understand as a Trumper and Republican, you consider history to be irrelevant. But during WW2, the USA was legally, officially at war with Japan. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. September 2, 1945 is officially V-J day. Victory over Japan. Surrender signed by Japan on that day. Not sure if or when Congress officially signed a war is over document. I looked up the definition of terrorism on Google and it says "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Since the USA was lawfully at war with Japan, Congress passed a law, its not terrorism.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi

Let me give Tom a little slack or sympathy. Calling the fire bombing of Tokyo and other civilians during WW2 bad, awful, evil, mean, terrible, etc. can be argued today. Right or wrong, up or down, left or right, black or white. Answer is....... The US fire bombed Dresden Germany in 1945 was terrible. Justified? The head brass said yes because it demoralized the enemy and hindered their ability to make war implements. I suspect they used the same rationale for Tokyo and Japan too. In hindsight we can debate it. Whether the use of warfare against civilians, non combatants, is correct and right. Is war only supposed to be against the enemies warriors?

Of course all nations demonize their enemies but the Japanese, prior
to 1945 were rather spectacularly bad, partially because they applied
their own standards and traditions to "the enemy". But in the U.S.
they were regarded as evil back stabbers who deserved everything that
might happen to them.

Example from newspapers at the time:

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 19, 1942, stated that:

Since Dec. 7 there has existed an obvious menace to the safety of
this region in the presence of potential saboteurs and fifth
columnists close to oil refineries and storage tanks, airplane
factories, Army posts, Navy facilities, ports and communications
systems. Under normal sensible procedure not one day would have
elapsed after Pearl Harbor before the government had proceeded to
round up and send to interior points all Japanese aliens and their
immediate descendants for classification and possible internment.

Atlanta Constitution editorial dated February 20, 1942, stated that:

The time to stop taking chances with Japanese aliens and
Japanese-Americans has come. . . . While Americans have an inate [sic]
distaste for stringent measures, every one must realize this is a
total war, that there are no Americans running loose in Japan or
Germany or Italy and there is absolutely no sense in this country
running even the slightest risk of a major disaster from enemy groups
within the nation.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 28, 1942, stated that:

As to a considerable number of Japanese, no matter where born,
there is unfortunately no doubt whatever. They are for Japan; they
will aid Japan in every way possible by espionage, sabotage and other
activity; and they need to be restrained for the safety of California
and the United States. And since there is no sure test for loyalty to
the United States, all must be restrained. Those truly loyal will
understand and make no objection.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated April 22, 1943, stated that:

As a race, the Japanese have made for themselves a record for
conscienceless treachery unsurpassed in history. Whatever small
theoretical advantages there might be in releasing those under
restraint in this country would be enormously outweighed by the risks
involved.[

While today, some 70 years after the fact, people may declare the
Tokyo bombing as cruel and terrible, terrible, but in the U.S., in
1945, it was considered as "the right thing to do".

I might add that in 1945 I was 13 years old and an avid reader of war
news and I can remember no instance where a news agency descried the
Tokyo bombing. Even the Nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities was
acceptable as the alternate was seen as, possibly, years of fighting
on the Japanese home islands and the loss of many American lives.

A month after the occupation of Japan General MacArthur was reported
as stating that even then, if the Japanese government lost control
over its people and the millions of former Japanese soldiers took to
guerrilla warfare in the mountains, it could take a million American
troops ten years to master the situation.

German and Italian nationals were interned as well, in
smaller numbers, some probably with cause, most not.

But the numbers didn't work for mass incarceration; Germans
have always been the largest cultural group in the US of A
and no one would seriously advocate locking up 15~18% of
citizens or even a million and a half resident aliens.
The Japanese were not put in concentration camps because of any danger they presented. They were put there because real estate people wanted their property. A large number of these were farms that were sold off for lack of taxes. My friend's family had enough money in the bank to pay their taxes so they still had a home to come back to. But their greenhouse farm had been destroyed by time and lack of maintenance so they eventually built a large home on that site as the city moved around them.
Are you f***** nuts? https://www.archives.gov/historical-.../?dod-date=219 There were opportunists, but the National Association of Realtors was not behind EO 9066.

Jay, I cannot figure out what that is supposed to mean? We SAW the results of family farms of the fourth generation lost to real estate tax sales. Are you saying that the President didn't allow this? That instead it was military commanders whom he in fact was in command of?

Fourth generation? WTF?

In 1942 the Issei and some Nisei owned those properties
(such as the Hood River Valley fruit orchards). My
generation, contemporary with sansei, had not been born yet.
Fourth came a lot later!

FYI, the Hood River Valley fruit orchards were seriously worth owning. https://tinyurl.com/2uv8v2ca (looking towards Mt. Adams); https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2d/c2...bd347002ff.jpg (towards Mt. Hood). Romanticized? Yes, but not that much. Driving down from Mt. Hood into HRV in spring is really breathtaking. During harvest it is less picturesque, but you can load up on fruit.


With the advent of the covid-19 "crisis" my Japanese friends who went through this have been traumatized all over again. To the point that they are seeking to move back to Japan - who will not have them. This is a serious matter and not one to pretend that Roosevelt did know exactly what he was doing and why.

For someone who always seems to take the "Liberal" side I am rather surprised at your belief that this was in any way necessary, desirable or did ANYTHING. The largest racial group gaining military awards in Europe were Japanese Americans (https://encyclopedia.densho.org/Japa..._World_War_II/)


I didn't write 'necessary' or anything like it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #136  
Old June 11th 21, 11:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Airborne

On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 3:24:33 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/11/2021 4:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 1:55:31 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 1:10:03 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/11/2021 2:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 10:00:54 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 8:39:03 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 6:20:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:28:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This was a terrorism campaign of the highest order.

I understand as a Trumper and Republican, you consider history to be irrelevant. But during WW2, the USA was legally, officially at war with Japan. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. September 2, 1945 is officially V-J day. Victory over Japan. Surrender signed by Japan on that day. Not sure if or when Congress officially signed a war is over document. I looked up the definition of terrorism on Google and it says "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Since the USA was lawfully at war with Japan, Congress passed a law, its not terrorism.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi

Let me give Tom a little slack or sympathy. Calling the fire bombing of Tokyo and other civilians during WW2 bad, awful, evil, mean, terrible, etc. can be argued today. Right or wrong, up or down, left or right, black or white. Answer is....... The US fire bombed Dresden Germany in 1945 was terrible. Justified? The head brass said yes because it demoralized the enemy and hindered their ability to make war implements. I suspect they used the same rationale for Tokyo and Japan too. In hindsight we can debate it. Whether the use of warfare against civilians, non combatants, is correct and right. Is war only supposed to be against the enemies warriors?

Of course all nations demonize their enemies but the Japanese, prior
to 1945 were rather spectacularly bad, partially because they applied
their own standards and traditions to "the enemy". But in the U.S.
they were regarded as evil back stabbers who deserved everything that
might happen to them.

Example from newspapers at the time:

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 19, 1942, stated that:

Since Dec. 7 there has existed an obvious menace to the safety of
this region in the presence of potential saboteurs and fifth
columnists close to oil refineries and storage tanks, airplane
factories, Army posts, Navy facilities, ports and communications
systems. Under normal sensible procedure not one day would have
elapsed after Pearl Harbor before the government had proceeded to
round up and send to interior points all Japanese aliens and their
immediate descendants for classification and possible internment..

Atlanta Constitution editorial dated February 20, 1942, stated that:

The time to stop taking chances with Japanese aliens and
Japanese-Americans has come. . . . While Americans have an inate [sic]
distaste for stringent measures, every one must realize this is a
total war, that there are no Americans running loose in Japan or
Germany or Italy and there is absolutely no sense in this country
running even the slightest risk of a major disaster from enemy groups
within the nation.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 28, 1942, stated that:

As to a considerable number of Japanese, no matter where born,
there is unfortunately no doubt whatever. They are for Japan; they
will aid Japan in every way possible by espionage, sabotage and other
activity; and they need to be restrained for the safety of California
and the United States. And since there is no sure test for loyalty to
the United States, all must be restrained. Those truly loyal will
understand and make no objection.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated April 22, 1943, stated that:

As a race, the Japanese have made for themselves a record for
conscienceless treachery unsurpassed in history. Whatever small
theoretical advantages there might be in releasing those under
restraint in this country would be enormously outweighed by the risks
involved.[

While today, some 70 years after the fact, people may declare the
Tokyo bombing as cruel and terrible, terrible, but in the U.S., in
1945, it was considered as "the right thing to do".

I might add that in 1945 I was 13 years old and an avid reader of war
news and I can remember no instance where a news agency descried the
Tokyo bombing. Even the Nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities was
acceptable as the alternate was seen as, possibly, years of fighting
on the Japanese home islands and the loss of many American lives..

A month after the occupation of Japan General MacArthur was reported
as stating that even then, if the Japanese government lost control
over its people and the millions of former Japanese soldiers took to
guerrilla warfare in the mountains, it could take a million American
troops ten years to master the situation.

German and Italian nationals were interned as well, in
smaller numbers, some probably with cause, most not.

But the numbers didn't work for mass incarceration; Germans
have always been the largest cultural group in the US of A
and no one would seriously advocate locking up 15~18% of
citizens or even a million and a half resident aliens.
The Japanese were not put in concentration camps because of any danger they presented. They were put there because real estate people wanted their property. A large number of these were farms that were sold off for lack of taxes. My friend's family had enough money in the bank to pay their taxes so they still had a home to come back to. But their greenhouse farm had been destroyed by time and lack of maintenance so they eventually built a large home on that site as the city moved around them.
Are you f***** nuts? https://www.archives.gov/historical-.../?dod-date=219 There were opportunists, but the National Association of Realtors was not behind EO 9066.

Jay, I cannot figure out what that is supposed to mean? We SAW the results of family farms of the fourth generation lost to real estate tax sales. Are you saying that the President didn't allow this? That instead it was military commanders whom he in fact was in command of?

Fourth generation? WTF?

In 1942 the Issei and some Nisei owned those properties
(such as the Hood River Valley fruit orchards). My
generation, contemporary with sansei, had not been born yet.
Fourth came a lot later!
FYI, the Hood River Valley fruit orchards were seriously worth owning. https://tinyurl.com/2uv8v2ca (looking towards Mt. Adams); https://i.pinimg..com/originals/2d/c...bd347002ff.jpg (towards Mt. Hood). Romanticized? Yes, but not that much. Driving down from Mt. Hood into HRV in spring is really breathtaking. During harvest it is less picturesque, but you can load up on fruit.


With the advent of the covid-19 "crisis" my Japanese friends who went through this have been traumatized all over again. To the point that they are seeking to move back to Japan - who will not have them. This is a serious matter and not one to pretend that Roosevelt did know exactly what he was doing and why.

For someone who always seems to take the "Liberal" side I am rather surprised at your belief that this was in any way necessary, desirable or did ANYTHING. The largest racial group gaining military awards in Europe were Japanese Americans (https://encyclopedia.densho.org/Japa..._World_War_II/)

I didn't write 'necessary' or anything like it.

I don't follow you Andrew. I looked up through the postings and I didn't see me saying anything that would elicit your comment.
  #137  
Old June 11th 21, 11:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Airborne

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 08:35:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:44:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:28:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This was a terrorism campaign of the highest order.

I understand as a Trumper and Republican, you consider history to be irrelevant. But during WW2, the USA was legally, officially at war with Japan. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. September 2, 1945 is officially V-J day. Victory over Japan. Surrender signed by Japan on that day. Not sure if or when Congress officially signed a war is over document. I looked up the definition of terrorism on Google and it says "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Since the USA was lawfully at war with Japan, Congress passed a law, its not terrorism.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi

Let me give Tom a little slack or sympathy. Calling the fire bombing of Tokyo and other civilians during WW2 bad, awful, evil, mean, terrible, etc. can be argued today. Right or wrong, up or down, left or right, black or white. Answer is....... The US fire bombed Dresden Germany in 1945 was terrible. Justified? The head brass said yes because it demoralized the enemy and hindered their ability to make war implements. I suspect they used the same rationale for Tokyo and Japan too. In hindsight we can debate it. Whether the use of warfare against civilians, non combatants, is correct and right. Is war only supposed to be against the enemies warriors?

Of course all nations demonize their enemies but the Japanese, prior
to 1945 were rather spectacularly bad, partially because they applied
their own standards and traditions to "the enemy". But in the U.S.
they were regarded as evil back stabbers who deserved everything that
might happen to them.

Example from newspapers at the time:

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 19, 1942, stated that:

Since Dec. 7 there has existed an obvious menace to the safety of
this region in the presence of potential saboteurs and fifth
columnists close to oil refineries and storage tanks, airplane
factories, Army posts, Navy facilities, ports and communications
systems. Under normal sensible procedure not one day would have
elapsed after Pearl Harbor before the government had proceeded to
round up and send to interior points all Japanese aliens and their
immediate descendants for classification and possible internment.

Atlanta Constitution editorial dated February 20, 1942, stated that:

The time to stop taking chances with Japanese aliens and
Japanese-Americans has come. . . . While Americans have an inate [sic]
distaste for stringent measures, every one must realize this is a
total war, that there are no Americans running loose in Japan or
Germany or Italy and there is absolutely no sense in this country
running even the slightest risk of a major disaster from enemy groups
within the nation.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 28, 1942, stated that:

As to a considerable number of Japanese, no matter where born,
there is unfortunately no doubt whatever. They are for Japan; they
will aid Japan in every way possible by espionage, sabotage and other
activity; and they need to be restrained for the safety of California
and the United States. And since there is no sure test for loyalty to
the United States, all must be restrained. Those truly loyal will
understand and make no objection.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated April 22, 1943, stated that:

As a race, the Japanese have made for themselves a record for
conscienceless treachery unsurpassed in history. Whatever small
theoretical advantages there might be in releasing those under
restraint in this country would be enormously outweighed by the risks
involved.[

While today, some 70 years after the fact, people may declare the
Tokyo bombing as cruel and terrible, terrible, but in the U.S., in
1945, it was considered as "the right thing to do".

I might add that in 1945 I was 13 years old and an avid reader of war
news and I can remember no instance where a news agency descried the
Tokyo bombing. Even the Nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities was
acceptable as the alternate was seen as, possibly, years of fighting
on the Japanese home islands and the loss of many American lives.

A month after the occupation of Japan General MacArthur was reported
as stating that even then, if the Japanese government lost control
over its people and the millions of former Japanese soldiers took to
guerrilla warfare in the mountains, it could take a million American
troops ten years to master the situation.


You claim to have been stationed in Japan and yet know absolutely nothing about the Japanese culture. Were you simply incapable of absorbing anything other than the fact that rice farmers were still growing rice?


Well yes, Tommy I was stationed in Japan... for 8 years and I even
married a Japanese girl. So yes, I probably do know more about
Japanese Culture than someone who was never in the country, cannot
speak a word of the language and probably can't even eat with hashi.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #138  
Old June 12th 21, 12:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Airborne

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 10:00:52 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 8:39:03 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 6:20:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:28:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This was a terrorism campaign of the highest order.

I understand as a Trumper and Republican, you consider history to be irrelevant. But during WW2, the USA was legally, officially at war with Japan. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. September 2, 1945 is officially V-J day. Victory over Japan. Surrender signed by Japan on that day. Not sure if or when Congress officially signed a war is over document. I looked up the definition of terrorism on Google and it says "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Since the USA was lawfully at war with Japan, Congress passed a law, its not terrorism.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi

Let me give Tom a little slack or sympathy. Calling the fire bombing of Tokyo and other civilians during WW2 bad, awful, evil, mean, terrible, etc. can be argued today. Right or wrong, up or down, left or right, black or white. Answer is....... The US fire bombed Dresden Germany in 1945 was terrible. Justified? The head brass said yes because it demoralized the enemy and hindered their ability to make war implements. I suspect they used the same rationale for Tokyo and Japan too. In hindsight we can debate it. Whether the use of warfare against civilians, non combatants, is correct and right. Is war only supposed to be against the enemies warriors?

Of course all nations demonize their enemies but the Japanese, prior
to 1945 were rather spectacularly bad, partially because they applied
their own standards and traditions to "the enemy". But in the U.S.
they were regarded as evil back stabbers who deserved everything that
might happen to them.

Example from newspapers at the time:

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 19, 1942, stated that:

Since Dec. 7 there has existed an obvious menace to the safety of
this region in the presence of potential saboteurs and fifth
columnists close to oil refineries and storage tanks, airplane
factories, Army posts, Navy facilities, ports and communications
systems. Under normal sensible procedure not one day would have
elapsed after Pearl Harbor before the government had proceeded to
round up and send to interior points all Japanese aliens and their
immediate descendants for classification and possible internment.

Atlanta Constitution editorial dated February 20, 1942, stated that:

The time to stop taking chances with Japanese aliens and
Japanese-Americans has come. . . . While Americans have an inate [sic]
distaste for stringent measures, every one must realize this is a
total war, that there are no Americans running loose in Japan or
Germany or Italy and there is absolutely no sense in this country
running even the slightest risk of a major disaster from enemy groups
within the nation.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 28, 1942, stated that:

As to a considerable number of Japanese, no matter where born,
there is unfortunately no doubt whatever. They are for Japan; they
will aid Japan in every way possible by espionage, sabotage and other
activity; and they need to be restrained for the safety of California
and the United States. And since there is no sure test for loyalty to
the United States, all must be restrained. Those truly loyal will
understand and make no objection.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated April 22, 1943, stated that:

As a race, the Japanese have made for themselves a record for
conscienceless treachery unsurpassed in history. Whatever small
theoretical advantages there might be in releasing those under
restraint in this country would be enormously outweighed by the risks
involved.[

While today, some 70 years after the fact, people may declare the
Tokyo bombing as cruel and terrible, terrible, but in the U.S., in
1945, it was considered as "the right thing to do".

I might add that in 1945 I was 13 years old and an avid reader of war
news and I can remember no instance where a news agency descried the
Tokyo bombing. Even the Nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities was
acceptable as the alternate was seen as, possibly, years of fighting
on the Japanese home islands and the loss of many American lives.

A month after the occupation of Japan General MacArthur was reported
as stating that even then, if the Japanese government lost control
over its people and the millions of former Japanese soldiers took to
guerrilla warfare in the mountains, it could take a million American
troops ten years to master the situation.

German and Italian nationals were interned as well, in
smaller numbers, some probably with cause, most not.

But the numbers didn't work for mass incarceration; Germans
have always been the largest cultural group in the US of A
and no one would seriously advocate locking up 15~18% of
citizens or even a million and a half resident aliens.

The Japanese were not put in concentration camps because of any danger they presented. They were put there because real estate people wanted their property. A large number of these were farms that were sold off for lack of taxes. My friend's family had enough money in the bank to pay their taxes so they still had a home to come back to. But their greenhouse farm had been destroyed by time and lack of maintenance so they eventually built a large home on that site as the city moved around them.


Are you f***** nuts? https://www.archives.gov/historical-.../?dod-date=219 There were opportunists, r but the National Association of Realtors was not behind EO 9066.

-- Jay Beattie.


See, you don't know nothing. But Tommy knows and he wasn't even born
when the Nips were being herded into the camps. An amazing example of
prenatal perception :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #139  
Old June 12th 21, 04:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Airborne

On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 4:06:49 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 10:00:52 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 8:39:03 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 6:20:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:28:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This was a terrorism campaign of the highest order.

I understand as a Trumper and Republican, you consider history to be irrelevant. But during WW2, the USA was legally, officially at war with Japan. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. September 2, 1945 is officially V-J day. Victory over Japan. Surrender signed by Japan on that day. Not sure if or when Congress officially signed a war is over document. I looked up the definition of terrorism on Google and it says "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Since the USA was lawfully at war with Japan, Congress passed a law, its not terrorism.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi

Let me give Tom a little slack or sympathy. Calling the fire bombing of Tokyo and other civilians during WW2 bad, awful, evil, mean, terrible, etc. can be argued today. Right or wrong, up or down, left or right, black or white. Answer is....... The US fire bombed Dresden Germany in 1945 was terrible. Justified? The head brass said yes because it demoralized the enemy and hindered their ability to make war implements. I suspect they used the same rationale for Tokyo and Japan too. In hindsight we can debate it. Whether the use of warfare against civilians, non combatants, is correct and right. Is war only supposed to be against the enemies warriors?

Of course all nations demonize their enemies but the Japanese, prior
to 1945 were rather spectacularly bad, partially because they applied
their own standards and traditions to "the enemy". But in the U.S.
they were regarded as evil back stabbers who deserved everything that
might happen to them.

Example from newspapers at the time:

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 19, 1942, stated that:

Since Dec. 7 there has existed an obvious menace to the safety of
this region in the presence of potential saboteurs and fifth
columnists close to oil refineries and storage tanks, airplane
factories, Army posts, Navy facilities, ports and communications
systems. Under normal sensible procedure not one day would have
elapsed after Pearl Harbor before the government had proceeded to
round up and send to interior points all Japanese aliens and their
immediate descendants for classification and possible internment.

Atlanta Constitution editorial dated February 20, 1942, stated that:

The time to stop taking chances with Japanese aliens and
Japanese-Americans has come. . . . While Americans have an inate [sic]
distaste for stringent measures, every one must realize this is a
total war, that there are no Americans running loose in Japan or
Germany or Italy and there is absolutely no sense in this country
running even the slightest risk of a major disaster from enemy groups
within the nation.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 28, 1942, stated that:

As to a considerable number of Japanese, no matter where born,
there is unfortunately no doubt whatever. They are for Japan; they
will aid Japan in every way possible by espionage, sabotage and other
activity; and they need to be restrained for the safety of California
and the United States. And since there is no sure test for loyalty to
the United States, all must be restrained. Those truly loyal will
understand and make no objection.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated April 22, 1943, stated that:

As a race, the Japanese have made for themselves a record for
conscienceless treachery unsurpassed in history. Whatever small
theoretical advantages there might be in releasing those under
restraint in this country would be enormously outweighed by the risks
involved.[

While today, some 70 years after the fact, people may declare the
Tokyo bombing as cruel and terrible, terrible, but in the U.S., in
1945, it was considered as "the right thing to do".

I might add that in 1945 I was 13 years old and an avid reader of war
news and I can remember no instance where a news agency descried the
Tokyo bombing. Even the Nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities was
acceptable as the alternate was seen as, possibly, years of fighting
on the Japanese home islands and the loss of many American lives.

A month after the occupation of Japan General MacArthur was reported
as stating that even then, if the Japanese government lost control
over its people and the millions of former Japanese soldiers took to
guerrilla warfare in the mountains, it could take a million American
troops ten years to master the situation.

German and Italian nationals were interned as well, in
smaller numbers, some probably with cause, most not.

But the numbers didn't work for mass incarceration; Germans
have always been the largest cultural group in the US of A
and no one would seriously advocate locking up 15~18% of
citizens or even a million and a half resident aliens.
The Japanese were not put in concentration camps because of any danger they presented. They were put there because real estate people wanted their property. A large number of these were farms that were sold off for lack of taxes. My friend's family had enough money in the bank to pay their taxes so they still had a home to come back to. But their greenhouse farm had been destroyed by time and lack of maintenance so they eventually built a large home on that site as the city moved around them.


Are you f***** nuts? https://www.archives.gov/historical-.../?dod-date=219 There were opportunists, r but the National Association of Realtors was not behind EO 9066.

-- Jay Beattie.


See, you don't know nothing. But Tommy knows and he wasn't even born
when the Nips were being herded into the camps. An amazing example of
prenatal perception :-)


You can't even make a posting without making a fool out of yourself. Jay reads an executive order and then pretends not to know what it actually meant.. And my friend and his sister, my classmate knew about the concentration camps. And some stupid ******* like you doesn't even seem to know that at least they tried to make restitution of the land grab that actually was. So the ****ing GOVERNMENT admitted it and you want to pretend otherwise don't you? It's no surprise that your marriage to a "nip" failed. She probably committed suicide rather than be around you.
  #140  
Old June 12th 21, 05:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Airborne

On 6/12/2021 10:06 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 4:06:49 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 10:00:52 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 8:39:03 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 6:20:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:28:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:48:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
This was a terrorism campaign of the highest order.

I understand as a Trumper and Republican, you consider history to be irrelevant. But during WW2, the USA was legally, officially at war with Japan. The US Congress declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. September 2, 1945 is officially V-J day. Victory over Japan. Surrender signed by Japan on that day. Not sure if or when Congress officially signed a war is over document. I looked up the definition of terrorism on Google and it says "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Since the USA was lawfully at war with Japan, Congress passed a law, its not terrorism.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi

Let me give Tom a little slack or sympathy. Calling the fire bombing of Tokyo and other civilians during WW2 bad, awful, evil, mean, terrible, etc. can be argued today. Right or wrong, up or down, left or right, black or white. Answer is....... The US fire bombed Dresden Germany in 1945 was terrible. Justified? The head brass said yes because it demoralized the enemy and hindered their ability to make war implements. I suspect they used the same rationale for Tokyo and Japan too. In hindsight we can debate it. Whether the use of warfare against civilians, non combatants, is correct and right. Is war only supposed to be against the enemies warriors?

Of course all nations demonize their enemies but the Japanese, prior
to 1945 were rather spectacularly bad, partially because they applied
their own standards and traditions to "the enemy". But in the U.S.
they were regarded as evil back stabbers who deserved everything that
might happen to them.

Example from newspapers at the time:

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 19, 1942, stated that:

Since Dec. 7 there has existed an obvious menace to the safety of
this region in the presence of potential saboteurs and fifth
columnists close to oil refineries and storage tanks, airplane
factories, Army posts, Navy facilities, ports and communications
systems. Under normal sensible procedure not one day would have
elapsed after Pearl Harbor before the government had proceeded to
round up and send to interior points all Japanese aliens and their
immediate descendants for classification and possible internment.

Atlanta Constitution editorial dated February 20, 1942, stated that:

The time to stop taking chances with Japanese aliens and
Japanese-Americans has come. . . . While Americans have an inate [sic]
distaste for stringent measures, every one must realize this is a
total war, that there are no Americans running loose in Japan or
Germany or Italy and there is absolutely no sense in this country
running even the slightest risk of a major disaster from enemy groups
within the nation.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated February 28, 1942, stated that:

As to a considerable number of Japanese, no matter where born,
there is unfortunately no doubt whatever. They are for Japan; they
will aid Japan in every way possible by espionage, sabotage and other
activity; and they need to be restrained for the safety of California
and the United States. And since there is no sure test for loyalty to
the United States, all must be restrained. Those truly loyal will
understand and make no objection.

Los Angeles Times editorial dated April 22, 1943, stated that:

As a race, the Japanese have made for themselves a record for
conscienceless treachery unsurpassed in history. Whatever small
theoretical advantages there might be in releasing those under
restraint in this country would be enormously outweighed by the risks
involved.[

While today, some 70 years after the fact, people may declare the
Tokyo bombing as cruel and terrible, terrible, but in the U.S., in
1945, it was considered as "the right thing to do".

I might add that in 1945 I was 13 years old and an avid reader of war
news and I can remember no instance where a news agency descried the
Tokyo bombing. Even the Nuclear bombing of two Japanese cities was
acceptable as the alternate was seen as, possibly, years of fighting
on the Japanese home islands and the loss of many American lives.

A month after the occupation of Japan General MacArthur was reported
as stating that even then, if the Japanese government lost control
over its people and the millions of former Japanese soldiers took to
guerrilla warfare in the mountains, it could take a million American
troops ten years to master the situation.

German and Italian nationals were interned as well, in
smaller numbers, some probably with cause, most not.

But the numbers didn't work for mass incarceration; Germans
have always been the largest cultural group in the US of A
and no one would seriously advocate locking up 15~18% of
citizens or even a million and a half resident aliens.
The Japanese were not put in concentration camps because of any danger they presented. They were put there because real estate people wanted their property. A large number of these were farms that were sold off for lack of taxes. My friend's family had enough money in the bank to pay their taxes so they still had a home to come back to. But their greenhouse farm had been destroyed by time and lack of maintenance so they eventually built a large home on that site as the city moved around them.

Are you f***** nuts? https://www.archives.gov/historical-.../?dod-date=219 There were opportunists, r but the National Association of Realtors was not behind EO 9066.

-- Jay Beattie.


See, you don't know nothing. But Tommy knows and he wasn't even born
when the Nips were being herded into the camps. An amazing example of
prenatal perception :-)


You can't even make a posting without making a fool out of yourself. Jay reads an executive order and then pretends not to know what it actually meant. And my friend and his sister, my classmate knew about the concentration camps. And some stupid ******* like you doesn't even seem to know that at least they tried to make restitution of the land grab that actually was. So the ****ing GOVERNMENT admitted it and you want to pretend otherwise don't you? It's no surprise that your marriage to a "nip" failed. She probably committed suicide rather than be around you.



Reminds me of a note from a wise man right here on RBT
yesterday at 3:02 pm:



"I had a few prize insults for you but have thought

better of it. "

I wonder if that guy is still around.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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