Stronger rubber cement?

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 12:58:02 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-20 11:31, wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 12:28:02 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-18 12:53, wrote:

Jeorg, perhaps you like your present road bike or cannot afford
another but otherwise I do not see why you don't get a
cyclocross bike.


Because I am married :-)

Tell me about it. :-)


But I still love her :-)

I have to to keep my nose.

My MTB has very fast reacting disc brakes. I generally ride with just
the index and middle fingers over the brake handles. A good squeeze from
two fingers can lock up the wheels. Yet I only locked them up when I
wanted to. Like when I accidentally blew by a trail turn-off and was
heading for a rock slide, and let the front and rear dig into the loose
gravel.

Beattie tells us that he can lock up rim brakes with road brakes. I wonder how steep your descents are.

Rim brakes do not work well in mud and rain. The worst is the delay when
the rim is soaked. Precious seconds go by and that could cause a crash.
Almost has on my old MTB with rim brakes.

Whenever I go through mud or water crossings I ride a little way with the brakes dragging to clear them. I've never had any problem with the rim brakes in those conditions.

I put TRP 9.0 V-brakes on the Ridley and the difference in control is
amazing. And despite what so many people say I've seen too many
Titanium bikes crack at the welds in a pretty short time.


My MTB buddy has a Ti-MTB from BikesDirect. It's been through nyumerous
nasty crashes and ... not even a dent.

They are good frame materials unless is has hardening from poor welds. I have seen these cracks develop in Linskey and Lightspeed and even on my Colnago Bititan.

On 2017-01-20 13:16, wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 12:58:02 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-20 11:31, wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 12:28:02 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-18 12:53, wrote:


[...]

My MTB has very fast reacting disc brakes. I generally ride with
just the index and middle fingers over the brake handles. A good
squeeze from two fingers can lock up the wheels. Yet I only locked
them up when I wanted to. Like when I accidentally blew by a trail
turn-off and was heading for a rock slide, and let the front and
rear dig into the loose gravel.

Beattie tells us that he can lock up rim brakes with road brakes. I
wonder how steep your descents are.


Not sure what that has to do with brake handle force. We have
singletrack sections where you can only slow down if you additionally
set a foot down or the bike will slowly pick up speed no matter what. I
now walk some of those after a friend had a spectacular crash on one.


Rim brakes do not work well in mud and rain. The worst is the delay
when the rim is soaked. Precious seconds go by and that could cause
a crash. Almost has on my old MTB with rim brakes.

Whenever I go through mud or water crossings I ride a little way with
the brakes dragging to clear them. I've never had any problem with
the rim brakes in those conditions.


My comeuppance happened on the old MTB. A puddle had formed before a
sharp turn, no big deal. I thought. Until I reached in to brake and ...
nada, zip ... "Oh s..t!". I had ridden that stretch before with a
Specialized Endoro from a friend and due to disc brakes never noticed
how bad this situation would be with rim brakes. During summer I never
noticed it even on the rim-brake MTB because then rim brakes work.

I also clear the brakes after puddles. When they were muddy puddles this
results in an awful grinding noise and you can hear some of the rim
surface being eaten up. The rims on my old MTB had deep grooves after
only 1000mi of use. They'd never make it to 10000mi.


I put TRP 9.0 V-brakes on the Ridley and the difference in
control is amazing. And despite what so many people say I've seen
too many Titanium bikes crack at the welds in a pretty short
time.


My MTB buddy has a Ti-MTB from BikesDirect. It's been through
nyumerous nasty crashes and ... not even a dent.

They are good frame materials unless is has hardening from poor
welds. I have seen these cracks develop in Linskey and Lightspeed and
even on my Colnago Bititan.


That is disturbing. Though nowadays things like frames are often made on
robot-equipped production lines where the welds are machine made. The
welds on the Ti-MTB of my friend all look very consistent, all the same,
like machine made.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 1:56:19 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-20 13:16, wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 12:58:02 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-20 11:31, wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 12:28:02 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-18 12:53, wrote:


[...]

My MTB has very fast reacting disc brakes. I generally ride with
just the index and middle fingers over the brake handles. A good
squeeze from two fingers can lock up the wheels. Yet I only locked
them up when I wanted to. Like when I accidentally blew by a trail
turn-off and was heading for a rock slide, and let the front and
rear dig into the loose gravel.

Beattie tells us that he can lock up rim brakes with road brakes. I
wonder how steep your descents are.


Not sure what that has to do with brake handle force. We have
singletrack sections where you can only slow down if you additionally
set a foot down or the bike will slowly pick up speed no matter what. I
now walk some of those after a friend had a spectacular crash on one.


Rim brakes do not work well in mud and rain. The worst is the delay
when the rim is soaked. Precious seconds go by and that could cause
a crash. Almost has on my old MTB with rim brakes.

Whenever I go through mud or water crossings I ride a little way with
the brakes dragging to clear them. I've never had any problem with
the rim brakes in those conditions.


My comeuppance happened on the old MTB. A puddle had formed before a
sharp turn, no big deal. I thought. Until I reached in to brake and ...
nada, zip ... "Oh s..t!". I had ridden that stretch before with a
Specialized Endoro from a friend and due to disc brakes never noticed
how bad this situation would be with rim brakes. During summer I never
noticed it even on the rim-brake MTB because then rim brakes work.

I also clear the brakes after puddles. When they were muddy puddles this
results in an awful grinding noise and you can hear some of the rim
surface being eaten up. The rims on my old MTB had deep grooves after
only 1000mi of use. They'd never make it to 10000mi.

Discs are well-suited for MTBs which are ridden in dirt (wet and dry) and see very steep descents with grades well beyond any paved road. Can't argue with discs on MTBs. They are also well-suited for winter riding in rainy climates like the PNW. I don't think they are needed for the occasional ride through a puddle on a racing bike. Tom can squeegee his rim in a revolution, and he doesn't have to worry much about grit turning his caliper brakes into lathes. When I used rim brakes on my commuter, I was wearing through rims. My current disc rims are pristine, and rotors last a long, long time..

Hydraulic discs have a nice feel and are very positive. I like them, but I could live with a good cable disk, although my rear BB5 is pretty limp -- and I'm not clear why. That is something I need to work on more. Anyway, a decent cable disc is a good choice for a wet-weather commuter/training bike.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 1/20/2017 2:41 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 11:30:04 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/20/2017 1:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-20 09:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/20/2017 10:43 AM, Joerg wrote:


As explained many times 20mph is the speed on flat sections of trail or
slightly higher when downsloping a little. My average trail speed is
more around 10-12mph depending on turf unless I want to push it. Meaning
there are murky or gnarly stretches in the low single digit mph. There
are people on this NG who do not understand the difference between top
speed and average speed.

Well, to be fair, you've bragged endlessly about how fast you ride when
that suits you, and you've switched to saying how slow you ride when
that suits you. You seldom clarified whether you were talking about
average or instantaneous speed, until people began calling you on the
discrepancies in your posts.


No...

Yes.

So you think of sprint speeds through stop lights as an average speed do you?

Nope. Once again, you're claiming something I never said.

Could be memory, could be deliberate straw man tactics.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-01-20 14:33, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 1:56:19 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-20 13:16, wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 12:58:02 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-20 11:31, wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 12:28:02 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-01-18 12:53, wrote:


[...]

My MTB has very fast reacting disc brakes. I generally ride
with just the index and middle fingers over the brake handles.
A good squeeze from two fingers can lock up the wheels. Yet I
only locked them up when I wanted to. Like when I accidentally
blew by a trail turn-off and was heading for a rock slide, and
let the front and rear dig into the loose gravel.

Beattie tells us that he can lock up rim brakes with road brakes.
I wonder how steep your descents are.


Not sure what that has to do with brake handle force. We have
singletrack sections where you can only slow down if you
additionally set a foot down or the bike will slowly pick up speed
no matter what. I now walk some of those after a friend had a
spectacular crash on one.


Rim brakes do not work well in mud and rain. The worst is the
delay when the rim is soaked. Precious seconds go by and that
could cause a crash. Almost has on my old MTB with rim brakes.

Whenever I go through mud or water crossings I ride a little way
with the brakes dragging to clear them. I've never had any
problem with the rim brakes in those conditions.


My comeuppance happened on the old MTB. A puddle had formed before
a sharp turn, no big deal. I thought. Until I reached in to brake
and ... nada, zip ... "Oh s..t!". I had ridden that stretch before
with a Specialized Endoro from a friend and due to disc brakes
never noticed how bad this situation would be with rim brakes.
During summer I never noticed it even on the rim-brake MTB because
then rim brakes work.

I also clear the brakes after puddles. When they were muddy puddles
this results in an awful grinding noise and you can hear some of
the rim surface being eaten up. The rims on my old MTB had deep
grooves after only 1000mi of use. They'd never make it to 10000mi.

Discs are well-suited for MTBs which are ridden in dirt (wet and dry)
and see very steep descents with grades well beyond any paved road.
Can't argue with discs on MTBs. They are also well-suited for winter
riding in rainy climates like the PNW. I don't think they are
needed for the occasional ride through a puddle on a racing bike.
Tom can squeegee his rim in a revolution, and he doesn't have to
worry much about grit turning his caliper brakes into lathes. When I
used rim brakes on my commuter, I was wearing through rims. My
current disc rims are pristine, and rotors last a long, long time.


I live in Norcal and it all depends on your routes. The regular
commuters down in the valley will be fine with rim brakes. But not us
"non-flatlanders". Every time I head down towards the valley I have to
cross a dirt path at least once. Even offroad vehicles have become stuck
there. No problem in the summer but this time of year the rim brakes
make a horrid grinding noise unless I find a clean enough puddle to
rinse the rims.


Hydraulic discs have a nice feel and are very positive. I like them,
but I could live with a good cable disk, although my rear BB5 is
pretty limp -- and I'm not clear why. That is something I need to
work on more. Anyway, a decent cable disc is a good choice for a
wet-weather commuter/training bike.


I have hydraulics on the MTB. Before that I test-rode a MTB with cable
disc brakes and came away non-plussed. It's got to be hydraulics if
possible. Unfortuantely most disc road bikes have cables. I'd accept
cables on a road bike but never on MTB.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 1/20/2017 3:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I have hydraulic discs on a Roubaix and cable discs on my CX commuter bike. I've never gone OTB because of my brakes. The last time I went OTB it was with ordinary caliper brakes and because my son had crashed in front of me on a wet descent.

The hydraulic brakes are powerful and they do take some use to understand. Front braking is not all that much different from a good dual pivot; however, rear braking is much more positive, and that is where you have to avoid ham-handedness. This takes about 90 seconds to figure out, and most rear wheel skids are controllable during the learning period.

I think I might have problems if I had two similar bikes, one with
caliper brakes and one with hydraulic discs - especially if the disc
bike wasn't ridden as frequently.

My riding style doesn't involve much emergency braking - or really, much
speed control on downhills. I like the fast coasting. I think that if
an emergency braking event occurred on a disc bike, I might overreact.

The scariest braking event I can recall happened about 1.5 years ago,
IIRC. It was a club ride through our large, somewhat hilly metropark,
and on one long 30+ mph downhill, I coasted off the front as usual.
Suddenly two fawns appeared from the woods and one trotted out in front
of me. I had never braked that hard and suddenly from such a high
speed, and I felt like I was on the edge of control. That's with well
set up cantilevers that I'm very, very used to. I suspect with discs,
I'd have gone down.


Both the cable and hydraulic brakes beat the hell out of calipers in rain and slop, like the snow slop I've been trying to ride in. In dry weather, any good rim brake will do the job. I don't see any reason for hydraulic discs on high-end race bikes that will never be ridden in the rain, except maybe to avoid over-heating CF rims -- which could be a real problem with tubulars, although I'm just speculating. Personally, I think its just marketing.

No argument there. I'm lucky to be able to avoid riding in those
conditions.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/20/2017 5:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/20/2017 3:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:

-snip-
I think I might have problems if I had two similar bikes,
one with caliper brakes and one with hydraulic discs -
especially if the disc bike wasn't ridden as frequently.

-snip-

Agreed.

See also front-engine front drive drivers vs. rear engine
rear drive drivers. Most of the time it doesn't matter. When
it does matter, a quick reaction in the other car will get
you killed.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I live in Norcal and it all depends on your routes. The regular
commuters down in the valley will be fine with rim brakes. But not us
"non-flatlanders".

"Hillbilly" is the word you're looking for

On 1/20/2017 6:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/20/2017 5:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/20/2017 3:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:

-snip-
I think I might have problems if I had two similar bikes,
one with caliper brakes and one with hydraulic discs -
especially if the disc bike wasn't ridden as frequently.

-snip-

Agreed.

See also front-engine front drive drivers vs. rear engine rear drive
drivers. Most of the time it doesn't matter. When it does matter, a
quick reaction in the other car will get you killed.

I believe I'm still not as good with front engine FWD as I was with rear
engine RWD. And I've driven FWD since 1978.

Of course, my driving is much more conservative these days.

And of course, the older I get, the faster I was.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 07:43:20 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-19 19:00, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 14:57:42 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-19 14:39, Doug Landau wrote:

On road bikes it usually happens when hitting a rock "just so". Like
when the rock gets under the tire off center and flies off to the side
with gusto.

Haha and makes a loud CRACK as it hits the passenger door or window of the car to your left :-)


No kidding, that has happend. Also, drivers give me extra wide margin
when I just came off a dirt path in bad weather and all sorts of gunk
flies off my rear wheel.

I am beginning to wonder.

You have repeatedly stated that your usual speed is 20 MPH. Now, a 26
x 3.0 tire will be spinning at about 250 RPM at that speed..... But
this speeding tire accumulates "all kind of gunk"?


As explained many times 20mph is the speed on flat sections of trail or
slightly higher when downsloping a little. My average trail speed is
more around 10-12mph depending on turf unless I want to push it. Meaning
there are murky or gnarly stretches in the low single digit mph. There
are people on this NG who do not understand the difference between top
speed and average speed.

On such trails I often slow down to enjoy the scenery, animals, and so
on. Something that the "bicycles belong on road" people will likely
never understand.

Then I ride on 29" wheels. A usual scenario is that I come back on
singletrack from Placerville and the last section before entering a
regular road is this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal2.jpg

Imagine that after three days of rain. Also, on rainy days my average
speed on the "real" trail can drop substantially because the rear wheel
becomes stuck several times. Big clump of mud caked up near the BB,
wheel will hardly turn even in granny gear, have to stop, look around
for a sturdy branch piece of manzanita, poke the mud out of there,
continue the ride. Until it gets stuck again a few miles later.
Sometimes it's so bad that I strap that piece of manzanita onto the rack.


I ask as my road bike, who's wheels are spinning at only about 157 RPM
don't seem to accumulate any junk at all.


Well, do your road bike tires have knobbies? BTW, my road bike does
fling dirt off the wheels after a muddy stretch of "bush road" and I
have caked up its BB area with mud. Usually purposely rolling through
some water puddles washes the mud off the tires, something that does not
work for the MTB tires.

You are almost unbelievable. You have a double handful of mud lodged
on the bottom bracket and you need to run about and find a stick to
dislodge it.

Why can't you just grab a handful and throw it on the ground... oh, of
course you'd get your fingers dirty, wouldn't you.

Is "effete a word you understand?
--
Cheers,

John B.