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  #1  
Old June 3rd 20, 08:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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The main groupsets are Campagnolo, Shimano and SRAM.

They all now have electronic groupsets.

Shimano, the originator of the Di2 which forced the others into the business uses a wired system like the Campagnolo EPS.

Shimano is a highly technical design that settled upon a method of powering and communicating with each component over the same two-conductor wire. Originally it used multiple wires and I can just picture an electronics engineer looking at that and asking Shimano management, "Why?" In any case since each part communicates with the others, you absolutely must have interchangeable components. These can be anything from 105 to Dura Ace but everything down to the battery itself much be a component interchangeable with the particular group. Why they would have different groups that are not interchangeable I couldn't say. You can get the 9000 series Di2 or the 9780 (which I have). Of course this might be nothing more than mistaken documentation on the Internet which is famous for that.

Campagnolo EPS is also a wired group and I know very little about it except that it is a 12 speed group and cost slightly less than a Tesla S model with full extras. As I've said before, my opinion of Italian engineering is that they are more artists than engineers and I wouldn't be surprised to discover that they need to go through many iterations to get it to work reliably. Though it would look pretty.

SRAM groupsets are real trash from my point of view. Their cranks for instance, have different size bearings on each side of the bike and the steel of the cranks is relatively soft so that they wear away rapidly leaving the cranks to rattle loosely in the bearings. Their electronic shifting idea became rather strange as well. Whereas Shimano has a single battery that lasts probably too long leaving you to eventually run out of juice a month after the last recharge after you've forgotten you even need to recharge, the SRAM is wireless and everything has its own battery to die on its own. They also have the odd idea that the right level shifts to a lower gear and the left to a larger gear. This means that there must be extra intelligence somewhere in this rig to calculate which is a larger gear - the upper chainring and the larger cog or the smaller ring and the smaller cog. Good luck if the battery for that component gives up the ghost. And some of these components uses a coin cell. Hope you're battery rich. Judging from my TV remote which has a three AAA cells and only lasts a month or six weeks, coin cells that go flat shifting you into a granny gear to limp 20 miles home doesn't seem all that brilliant to me.

The Chinese presently have a manual high end groupset from a couple of companies but the tests on them aren't very pleasant and it is likely that the means they are using to get around SRAM and Shimano patents in the USA make for not very well working setups.

Sooner of later I suspect that Shimano will replace the Di2 and Manual groups with hydraulic which will solve most of their problems since people are now seeing just how simple it is to bleed hydraulic systems. Changing the derailleurs to hydraulic would make the changes so soft that it would make Di2 seem like a real effort. Also you could build in chain rub compensation so that it relieves a little pressure if it detects the chain rubbing. Of course this implies that it always has to be setup so that rub is from the high pressure side.

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?

It would also allow a piston design for the derailleurs that was made out of plastic so it would be lighter and last forever. Maybe that is why they are holding back.

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  #6  
Old June 4th 20, 12:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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On 6/3/2020 6:42 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 16:28:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/3/2020 3:33 PM, wrote:

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?


I'm puzzled by the high value some people place on a "light touch,"
whether braking or shifting. ISTM light acting controls are a benefit
only up to a point.

Brakes that can lock a wheel with a few ounces of lever force make no
sense to me.

Yes, shifters shouldn't take a full handshake grip to move; but
everything since the invention of SunTour's ratchet shifters seem light
enough to me. I certainly have no trouble clicking a bar end index lever.

Are people's fingers too tired because of excessive typing?



But Frank. It's New! Its Electric (or hydraulic) and It Costs More....
It's gotta be better!

I've still got down tube friction shifters on my Bangkok Bike. I took
a short ride last Sunday while we were in town and the shifters
worked! Just like thay have worked for probably the last 30 years :-)


One of our friends rides a beautiful mid-1980s Trek. (That's different
from the other beautiful 1980s Trek I rebuilt for a friend who doesn't
ride it.) She's a retired lady and daily rider.

Her downtube shifters are SunTour, but non-ratchet models. I've thought
about getting some matching ratchet shifters (Power Shifters) off Ebay
as a surprise gift for her. But she doesn't really need them; she likes
her shifters fine. She must have more hand strength than Tom!

I could have sworn I had a set of those Power Shifters in my junk boxes,
but they seem to have vanished onto some other bike.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #7  
Old June 4th 20, 01:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Roger Merriman[_4_]
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Posts: 385
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Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2020 3:33 PM, wrote:

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely
light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain
by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?


I'm puzzled by the high value some people place on a "light touch,"
whether braking or shifting. ISTM light acting controls are a benefit
only up to a point.

Brakes that can lock a wheel with a few ounces of lever force make no
sense to me.


Try MTB or Gravel descents, older MTB on steeper stuff the burn on the
forearms is real, and the older (tech) CX bike which had canti reminded me
of this few years back, present Gravel bike has cable disks which are okay
but not stellar, my MTB has hydro as does my old commuting beast which are
far better in high load sort of stuff. And let’s not forget the not needing
to adjust pads etc.

Yes, shifters shouldn't take a full handshake grip to move; but
everything since the invention of SunTour's ratchet shifters seem light
enough to me. I certainly have no trouble clicking a bar end index lever.

Are people's fingers too tired because of excessive typing?


Certainly with mechanical stuff I suspect most of it is down to how good
nick the cable is in, personally I like the shifting to be light but
positive, ie I want to be sure it has shifted.

Roger Merriman


  #8  
Old June 4th 20, 01:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
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On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 4:06:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2020 6:42 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 16:28:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/3/2020 3:33 PM, wrote:

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?

I'm puzzled by the high value some people place on a "light touch,"
whether braking or shifting. ISTM light acting controls are a benefit
only up to a point.

Brakes that can lock a wheel with a few ounces of lever force make no
sense to me.

Yes, shifters shouldn't take a full handshake grip to move; but
everything since the invention of SunTour's ratchet shifters seem light
enough to me. I certainly have no trouble clicking a bar end index lever.

Are people's fingers too tired because of excessive typing?



But Frank. It's New! Its Electric (or hydraulic) and It Costs More....
It's gotta be better!

I've still got down tube friction shifters on my Bangkok Bike. I took
a short ride last Sunday while we were in town and the shifters
worked! Just like thay have worked for probably the last 30 years :-)


One of our friends rides a beautiful mid-1980s Trek. (That's different
from the other beautiful 1980s Trek I rebuilt for a friend who doesn't
ride it.) She's a retired lady and daily rider.

Her downtube shifters are SunTour, but non-ratchet models. I've thought
about getting some matching ratchet shifters (Power Shifters) off Ebay
as a surprise gift for her. But she doesn't really need them; she likes
her shifters fine. She must have more hand strength than Tom!

I could have sworn I had a set of those Power Shifters in my junk boxes,
but they seem to have vanished onto some other bike.


I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC, they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts, (3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.


-- Jay Beattie.







  #9  
Old June 4th 20, 03:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Groupsets

On 6/3/2020 8:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 4:06:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2020 6:42 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 16:28:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/3/2020 3:33 PM, wrote:

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?

I'm puzzled by the high value some people place on a "light touch,"
whether braking or shifting. ISTM light acting controls are a benefit
only up to a point.

Brakes that can lock a wheel with a few ounces of lever force make no
sense to me.

Yes, shifters shouldn't take a full handshake grip to move; but
everything since the invention of SunTour's ratchet shifters seem light
enough to me. I certainly have no trouble clicking a bar end index lever.

Are people's fingers too tired because of excessive typing?


But Frank. It's New! Its Electric (or hydraulic) and It Costs More....
It's gotta be better!

I've still got down tube friction shifters on my Bangkok Bike. I took
a short ride last Sunday while we were in town and the shifters
worked! Just like thay have worked for probably the last 30 years :-)


One of our friends rides a beautiful mid-1980s Trek. (That's different
from the other beautiful 1980s Trek I rebuilt for a friend who doesn't
ride it.) She's a retired lady and daily rider.

Her downtube shifters are SunTour, but non-ratchet models. I've thought
about getting some matching ratchet shifters (Power Shifters) off Ebay
as a surprise gift for her. But she doesn't really need them; she likes
her shifters fine. She must have more hand strength than Tom!

I could have sworn I had a set of those Power Shifters in my junk boxes,
but they seem to have vanished onto some other bike.


I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC, they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts, (3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.


Another potential NYT headline: "Krygowski doesn't like downtube shifters!"

Which is true. At least three of my bikes came with them. Decades ago, I
changed those to bar ends, which I do like.

But IME downtube index shifting is extremely quick and precise - at
least, once you get your hand to that inconvenient location.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #10  
Old June 4th 20, 03:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Groupsets

On 6/3/2020 8:02 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2020 3:33 PM, wrote:

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely
light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain
by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?


I'm puzzled by the high value some people place on a "light touch,"
whether braking or shifting. ISTM light acting controls are a benefit
only up to a point.

Brakes that can lock a wheel with a few ounces of lever force make no
sense to me.


Try MTB or Gravel descents, older MTB on steeper stuff the burn on the
forearms is real, and the older (tech) CX bike which had canti reminded me
of this few years back, present Gravel bike has cable disks which are okay
but not stellar, my MTB has hydro as does my old commuting beast which are
far better in high load sort of stuff. And let’s not forget the not needing
to adjust pads etc.


Adjusting pads is sort of a side issue, since I was talking only about
force on the controls. Although to me, not needing to adjust hydraulic
disc pads is kind of balanced by needing to prissily clean things with
cotton swabs when replacing pads.

I understand the benefits of less lever force for long, steel mountain
bike downhills. Not that I ride those any more.

But even for road riding, there's been a long trend to less and less
lever force, long ago leading to in-line force-reducing spring gizmos so
people riding comfort bikes on MUPs didn't lock up the front wheel and
take headers. And I've seen a novice flip a bike because it had dual
pivot brakes, when she was used to single pivot.

BTW, our neighborhood paramedic just took delivery of a new gravel bike.
She asked me to solve a little problem with it, so I got a brief test
ride. It was interesting to me that her cable discs did not have
super-low lever force like some other discs I've tried. In fact, I
thought her back brake felt rather weak, which surprised me. (I don't
know the brake model; I'll have to check.)

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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