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  #1  
Old June 15th 20, 06:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark Cleary[_3_]
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Posts: 109
Default Disk brakes

So if I go the disk brakes route thinking Lynskey. Option for mechanical or hydraulic, what is the better option? Are either of them really all that hard to keep working with properly? Seems if you have bleed hydraulic that would be a little more but nut rocket science.

Finally I really do fine with standard rim brakes but seems the future is only in disk. I can only see a downside to rim brakes in going down long mountains and heating. Rain would make them better too. Could all be completely overblown too?

Deacon Mark
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  #2  
Old June 15th 20, 08:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Disk brakes

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 10:10:39 AM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if I go the disk brakes route thinking Lynskey. Option for mechanical or hydraulic, what is the better option? Are either of them really all that hard to keep working with properly? Seems if you have bleed hydraulic that would be a little more but nut rocket science.

Finally I really do fine with standard rim brakes but seems the future is only in disk. I can only see a downside to rim brakes in going down long mountains and heating. Rain would make them better too. Could all be completely overblown too?

Deacon Mark


I prefer hydraulic discs, and on some bikes, the cable runs for mechanical disks add too much cable drag for weak return springs and you end up with pad drag and weak braking. After initial installation, bleeding is unnecessary (at least for Shimano road discs), and the only thing you need to do is watch pad wear. The brakes self-adjust, but you can find yourself braking with the aluminum pad carriers. Set up is easy -- far easier than cantilevers.

Pads are expensive, you will need a bleed/install kit (assuming you're building the bike) and will have bikes with different wheels -- and you will have to deal with odd-ball through axle standards (12mm/15mm). You have to buy rotors. If this all comes OE, then no big deal except the cost of pads. Also, hydro discs means either 10/11/12 speed, and if you had your heart set on 8sp STI/Ergo, you're out of luck. I don't know of any hydro levers-only for road, so if you had your heart set on DT shifters or bar-ends, you'll have to shop around.

Wet braking with discs is superior to rim brakes. There is no rim wear, which was a problem for me riding in the PNW. You can use whatever rim you want (CF, aluminum, dimpled steel) and can use whatever tire fits your bike because there is no brake arch or straddle cable. Great fender clearance. I have discs on my wet weather bikes but not on my racing bike (descriptive term for bike type and not my use), but sometimes I wish I did because even in dry weather, my poor rims are getting ground down. OTOH, rim brakes on dry weather bikes are fine, light and simpler. They work well for most people.

IF I were building a one-bike solution, it would have hydro discs.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #3  
Old June 15th 20, 10:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Disk brakes

On 6/15/2020 1:10 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if I go the disk brakes route thinking Lynskey. Option for mechanical or hydraulic, what is the better option? Are either of them really all that hard to keep working with properly? Seems if you have bleed hydraulic that would be a little more but nut rocket science.

Finally I really do fine with standard rim brakes but seems the future is only in disk. I can only see a downside to rim brakes in going down long mountains and heating. Rain would make them better too. Could all be completely overblown too?


"I do fine with rim brakes but I'm getting disc" is a very common meme
these days!

I've gone down mountains with rim brakes and heavy loads. I was aware of
the potential problem and was careful about it, but I never had that
problem. For people riding mountain bikes in mud or (like Jay) commuting
in six months of rain, discs make sense. For others, not so much, IMO.

I have only a tiny bit of experience working on discs, so I'm not
qualified to comment on hydro vs. cable, etc. My only advice is to buy
extra pads early (maybe on sale?) and carry one set when you ride.

I'd worry, perhaps needlessly, about someday being told "Oh, you need
pads for an Acme 1100-Z disc brake? Dude, that's SO unfashionable! They
stopped making pads for that one five years ago!"


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #4  
Old June 15th 20, 10:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 824
Default Disk brakes

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 7:10:39 PM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if I go the disk brakes route thinking Lynskey. Option for mechanical or hydraulic, what is the better option? Are either of them really all that hard to keep working with properly? Seems if you have bleed hydraulic that would be a little more but nut rocket science.

Finally I really do fine with standard rim brakes but seems the future is only in disk. I can only see a downside to rim brakes in going down long mountains and heating. Rain would make them better too. Could all be completely overblown too?

Deacon Mark


If you ride in the rain a lot, get discs. If you want to use wider tires now or in the future, get discs. If you want to use CF rims now or in the future, get discs. If you want to sell your bike in the future, get discs. If not then you have a choice between discs and rim brakes. I would not consider mechanical disks. I didn't like them on my first cross bike (BB7).

Lou
  #5  
Old June 15th 20, 10:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 824
Default Disk brakes

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 11:01:35 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/15/2020 1:10 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if I go the disk brakes route thinking Lynskey. Option for mechanical or hydraulic, what is the better option? Are either of them really all that hard to keep working with properly? Seems if you have bleed hydraulic that would be a little more but nut rocket science.

Finally I really do fine with standard rim brakes but seems the future is only in disk. I can only see a downside to rim brakes in going down long mountains and heating. Rain would make them better too. Could all be completely overblown too?


"I do fine with rim brakes but I'm getting disc" is a very common meme
these days!

I've gone down mountains with rim brakes and heavy loads. I was aware of
the potential problem and was careful about it, but I never had that
problem. For people riding mountain bikes in mud or (like Jay) commuting
in six months of rain, discs make sense. For others, not so much, IMO.

I have only a tiny bit of experience working on discs, so I'm not
qualified to comment on hydro vs. cable, etc. My only advice is to buy
extra pads early (maybe on sale?) and carry one set when you ride.

I'd worry, perhaps needlessly, about someday being told "Oh, you need
pads for an Acme 1100-Z disc brake? Dude, that's SO unfashionable! They
stopped making pads for that one five years ago!"


--
- Frank Krygowski


Hé, Frank what took you so long? I'm a little disappointed.

Lou
  #6  
Old June 15th 20, 10:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark Cleary[_3_]
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Posts: 109
Default Disk brakes

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:34:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 11:01:35 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/15/2020 1:10 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if I go the disk brakes route thinking Lynskey. Option for mechanical or hydraulic, what is the better option? Are either of them really all that hard to keep working with properly? Seems if you have bleed hydraulic that would be a little more but nut rocket science.

Finally I really do fine with standard rim brakes but seems the future is only in disk. I can only see a downside to rim brakes in going down long mountains and heating. Rain would make them better too. Could all be completely overblown too?


"I do fine with rim brakes but I'm getting disc" is a very common meme
these days!

I've gone down mountains with rim brakes and heavy loads. I was aware of
the potential problem and was careful about it, but I never had that
problem. For people riding mountain bikes in mud or (like Jay) commuting
in six months of rain, discs make sense. For others, not so much, IMO.

I have only a tiny bit of experience working on discs, so I'm not
qualified to comment on hydro vs. cable, etc. My only advice is to buy
extra pads early (maybe on sale?) and carry one set when you ride.

I'd worry, perhaps needlessly, about someday being told "Oh, you need
pads for an Acme 1100-Z disc brake? Dude, that's SO unfashionable! They
stopped making pads for that one five years ago!"


--
- Frank Krygowski


Hé, Frank what took you so long? I'm a little disappointed.

Lou


This was all very helpful. Now the question is how much do replacement pads cost. Personally I can see no reason to go to disk but in the rain would be the first reason. I live in Illinois so we are flat as a pancake. Not sure the longest descent in the mountains I have done but not done a lot of riding in mountains. One time around Bozeman Mt and I did fine on a rental bike. I would like to travel and do some riding in mountains. The steepest grade of any length I have gone down is about 6% for a mile and feather the brakes but have no idea how much you have to descend until brakes get hot.

One other item is taking the wheel off and on any more tricky or harder to line up. Seem they don't use quick release levers? I would hope it is easy to set up because would not want brake rub.

Deacon Mark
  #7  
Old June 15th 20, 11:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
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Posts: 840
Default Disk brakes

On 6/15/2020 10:10 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if I go the disk brakes route thinking Lynskey. Option for mechanical or hydraulic, what is the better option? Are either of them really all that hard to keep working with properly? Seems if you have bleed hydraulic that would be a little more but nut rocket science.

Finally I really do fine with standard rim brakes but seems the future is only in disk. I can only see a downside to rim brakes in going down long mountains and heating. Rain would make them better too. Could all be completely overblown too?


I got my first disc bike in 2014 when my 20-year-old Univega commuter
bit the dust (long story there for another time). I had re-rimmed the
Univega at least twice from grinding down the rim brake track b/c like
Jay, I commuted year-round in Western Oregon.

To anticipate Frank, I'll note that I had commuted in the rain for
nearly 30 years previously with cantis, and had managed just fine,
though the set-up was fussy when you wanted max braking power (steep
hill with a stop at the bottom on my commute). That and I tended to
maintain only when necessary or once a year, whichever came first - the
first re-rim came after an explosive rim-sidewall failure, then I learned.

The new commuter has mechanical disks that have worked great; I'm used
to muscling brakes when needed, and I have a fairly strong grip, but the
disks seem a lot stronger and need much less grip. There's no
comparison in the rain. At least once approaching the steep downhill on
my commute, I found myself preemptively braking to "wipe dry the brake
track," then realized "I don't have to do that anymore." My disks do
squeak a bit when operated gently.

Takeaway #1: Ride in the rain lots? Get disks. Period. Your life will
be better.

Last year I got a gravel bike (Trek Checkpoint) with hydraulic disks.
They just work, but the bike is still pretty new, so no surprise there.
The nice thing is the tire clearance. Bike came with 35mm tires. Just
too small for the rough gravel in my area. Swapped for 42mm (nominally
45mm) tires. Much cushier ride now, and room for larger tires still.
Judging from how dust-caked the bike gets (gravel, remember?) I wonder
if rim-brake gravel bikes would experience similar rim wear as rim-brake
rain bikes. There's certainly enough superfine grit on the rims. No
idea if the dust will accelerate disk wear, but disks swap out SO much
faster than rims, and so much more cheaply.

Mark, you're in ?Illinois? ?Iowa? Should be lots of gravel in your
area. I'm impressed by how quiet the gravel (lack of traffic) out here
is. It's a very different riding experience, and you can definitely
work out as hard as you like.

Takeaway #2: While you probably can't find a gravel bike with rim brakes
these days, there's a good reason. And gravel roads can be fun.

A few years back we got my wife an E-bike. Not super high-end, but I
doubt there's such a thing as a cheap E-bike. Hydraulic disk brakes.
The E-bike is on the heavy side, and she has small hands, and is a bit
on the timid-in-traffic side, but has never had a problem braking. Our
rides together typically start with the steep
downhill-with-stop-at-bottom mentioned above.

Takeaway #3: hydraulic disks stop really well. Maybe better than
mechanical disks, but my two disk bikes are ridden in such different
venues that the comparison is not immediately obvious.

Haven't needed to maintain either of the hydraulics yet. Changing pads
(which I've only done on the mechanical disk) is quick and easy,
arguably easier than rim pads b/c there's no alignment fussing - which
usually takes me a few tries. Haven't bled the hydraulics; it's unclear
to me how often that's needed if the system is not opened.

Once again, I have tens of thousands of miles of rim-brake experience, a
fair bit of it on a tandem in the rain while loaded for camping. In
hills. Rim brakes do work. For a dry-weather only road bike, they seem
preferable. For rain, gravel, wide tires, or small hands, disks seem to
be an improvement.

Good luck with your choice,

Mark J.
  #8  
Old June 15th 20, 11:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Disk brakes

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 2:53:58 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:34:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 11:01:35 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/15/2020 1:10 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if I go the disk brakes route thinking Lynskey. Option for mechanical or hydraulic, what is the better option? Are either of them really all that hard to keep working with properly? Seems if you have bleed hydraulic that would be a little more but nut rocket science.

Finally I really do fine with standard rim brakes but seems the future is only in disk. I can only see a downside to rim brakes in going down long mountains and heating. Rain would make them better too. Could all be completely overblown too?

"I do fine with rim brakes but I'm getting disc" is a very common meme
these days!

I've gone down mountains with rim brakes and heavy loads. I was aware of
the potential problem and was careful about it, but I never had that
problem. For people riding mountain bikes in mud or (like Jay) commuting
in six months of rain, discs make sense. For others, not so much, IMO..

I have only a tiny bit of experience working on discs, so I'm not
qualified to comment on hydro vs. cable, etc. My only advice is to buy
extra pads early (maybe on sale?) and carry one set when you ride.

I'd worry, perhaps needlessly, about someday being told "Oh, you need
pads for an Acme 1100-Z disc brake? Dude, that's SO unfashionable! They
stopped making pads for that one five years ago!"


--
- Frank Krygowski


Hé, Frank what took you so long? I'm a little disappointed.

Lou


This was all very helpful. Now the question is how much do replacement pads cost. Personally I can see no reason to go to disk but in the rain would be the first reason. I live in Illinois so we are flat as a pancake. Not sure the longest descent in the mountains I have done but not done a lot of riding in mountains. One time around Bozeman Mt and I did fine on a rental bike. I would like to travel and do some riding in mountains. The steepest grade of any length I have gone down is about 6% for a mile and feather the brakes but have no idea how much you have to descend until brakes get hot.

One other item is taking the wheel off and on any more tricky or harder to line up. Seem they don't use quick release levers? I would hope it is easy to set up because would not want brake rub.


Through axles have guides that line up the wheel, and the axle places the disc in the right orientation. You will not get brake rub if the calipers are properly installed unless you bend a disc. It takes five minutes to learn how to deal with through axles, if that long. It is faster to remove a front wheel with a through axle than a front wheel with lawyer lips and QR.

I never had a problem with brake fade except on a tandem with cantilever brakes -- after over heating and blowing up a front tire. On a single, I don't think it is an issue with rim brakes or discs -- at least not on a mile of 6%. I'd probably go with the disc on a super-steep decent, but some of that is avoiding hand fatigue.

-- Jay Beattie
  #9  
Old June 15th 20, 11:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Disk brakes

On 6/15/2020 5:53 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 4:34:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 11:01:35 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/15/2020 1:10 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if I go the disk brakes route thinking Lynskey. Option for mechanical or hydraulic, what is the better option? Are either of them really all that hard to keep working with properly? Seems if you have bleed hydraulic that would be a little more but nut rocket science.

Finally I really do fine with standard rim brakes but seems the future is only in disk. I can only see a downside to rim brakes in going down long mountains and heating. Rain would make them better too. Could all be completely overblown too?

"I do fine with rim brakes but I'm getting disc" is a very common meme
these days!

I've gone down mountains with rim brakes and heavy loads. I was aware of
the potential problem and was careful about it, but I never had that
problem. For people riding mountain bikes in mud or (like Jay) commuting
in six months of rain, discs make sense. For others, not so much, IMO.

I have only a tiny bit of experience working on discs, so I'm not
qualified to comment on hydro vs. cable, etc. My only advice is to buy
extra pads early (maybe on sale?) and carry one set when you ride.

I'd worry, perhaps needlessly, about someday being told "Oh, you need
pads for an Acme 1100-Z disc brake? Dude, that's SO unfashionable! They
stopped making pads for that one five years ago!"


--
- Frank Krygowski


Hé, Frank what took you so long? I'm a little disappointed.

Lou


This was all very helpful. Now the question is how much do replacement pads cost. Personally I can see no reason to go to disk but in the rain would be the first reason. I live in Illinois so we are flat as a pancake. Not sure the longest descent in the mountains I have done but not done a lot of riding in mountains. One time around Bozeman Mt and I did fine on a rental bike. I would like to travel and do some riding in mountains. The steepest grade of any length I have gone down is about 6% for a mile and feather the brakes but have no idea how much you have to descend until brakes get hot.


The guy who was my department chairman until he retired once went to
Hawaii on vacation. He came back bragging about the bike ride he and his
wife did. The rental company took them to the top of some mountain and
they had miles and miles of downill to the pickup point.

This was probably 20 years ago. I'm sure the bikes had rim brakes. My
friend said nothing at all about the brakes, so I assume they were not a
problem.


One other item is taking the wheel off and on any more tricky or harder to line up. Seem they don't use quick release levers?


My neighbor's new bike has through axles. She fussed for several minutes
yesterday trying to get the axle back in. But as she says, she's not
very mechanical.

I would hope it is easy to set up because would not want brake rub.


As I've mentioned, one friend of me had a rubbing or noise problem on
his brand new bike. It took the shop three tries to fix whatever the
problem was with his rear disc. I've briefly ridden other disc brake
bikes that had rubbing. I remember one owner (a tourist passing through
here) saying the noise didn't bother him, he was used to it.

IMO, rim brakes are easier to diagnose. You can easily see what's
happening. Comparatively speaking, disc brakes are a black box.

But of course, most people do fine with them. It all depends on your
priorities and standards, and perhaps on your luck.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #10  
Old June 15th 20, 11:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Disk brakes

On 6/15/2020 6:29 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 6/15/2020 10:10 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
So if I go the disk brakes route thinking Lynskey. Option for
mechanical or hydraulic, what is the better option? Are either of them
really all that hard to keep working with properly? Seems if you have
bleed hydraulic that would be a little more but nut rocket science.

Finally I really do fine with standard rim brakes but seems the future
is only in disk. I can only see a downside to rim brakes in going down
long mountains and heating. Rain would make them better too. Could all
be completely overblown too?


I got my first disc bike in 2014 when my 20-year-old Univega commuter
bit the dust (long story there for another time).* I had re-rimmed the
Univega at least twice from grinding down the rim brake track b/c like
Jay, I commuted year-round in Western Oregon.

To anticipate Frank, I'll note that I had commuted in the rain for
nearly 30 years previously with cantis, and had managed just fine,
though the set-up was fussy when you wanted max braking power (steep
hill with a stop at the bottom on my commute).* That and I tended to
maintain only when necessary or once a year, whichever came first - the
first re-rim came after an explosive rim-sidewall failure, then I learned.

The new commuter has mechanical disks that have worked great; I'm used
to muscling brakes when needed, and I have a fairly strong grip, but the
disks seem a lot stronger and need much less grip.* There's no
comparison in the rain.* At least once approaching the steep downhill on
my commute, I found myself preemptively braking to "wipe dry the brake
track," then realized "I don't have to do that anymore."* My disks do
squeak a bit when operated gently.

Takeaway #1: Ride in the rain lots?* Get disks.* Period.* Your life will
be better.

Last year I got a gravel bike (Trek Checkpoint) with hydraulic disks.
They just work, but the bike is still pretty new, so no surprise there.
The nice thing is the tire clearance.* Bike came with 35mm tires.* Just
too small for the rough gravel in my area.* Swapped for 42mm (nominally
45mm) tires.* Much cushier ride now, and room for larger tires still.
Judging from how dust-caked the bike gets (gravel, remember?) I wonder
if rim-brake gravel bikes would experience similar rim wear as rim-brake
rain bikes.* There's certainly enough superfine grit on the rims.* No
idea if the dust will accelerate disk wear, but disks swap out SO much
faster than rims, and so much more cheaply.

Mark, you're in ?Illinois? ?Iowa?* Should be lots of gravel in your
area.* I'm impressed by how quiet the gravel (lack of traffic) out here
is.* It's a very different riding experience, and you can definitely
work out as hard as you like.

Takeaway #2: While you probably can't find a gravel bike with rim brakes
these days, there's a good reason.* And gravel roads can be fun.

A few years back we got my wife an E-bike.* Not super high-end, but I
doubt there's such a thing as a cheap E-bike.* Hydraulic disk brakes.
The E-bike is on the heavy side, and she has small hands, and is a bit
on the timid-in-traffic side, but has never had a problem braking.* Our
rides together typically start with the steep
downhill-with-stop-at-bottom mentioned above.

Takeaway #3: hydraulic disks stop really well.* Maybe better than
mechanical disks, but my two disk bikes are ridden in such different
venues that the comparison is not immediately obvious.

Haven't needed to maintain either of the hydraulics yet.* Changing pads
(which I've only done on the mechanical disk) is quick and easy,
arguably easier than rim pads b/c there's no alignment fussing - which
usually takes me a few tries.* Haven't bled the hydraulics; it's unclear
to me how often that's needed if the system is not opened.

Once again, I have tens of thousands of miles of rim-brake experience, a
fair bit of it on a tandem in the rain while loaded for camping. In
hills.* Rim brakes do work.* For a dry-weather only road bike, they seem
preferable.* For rain, gravel, wide tires, or small hands, disks seem to
be an improvement.

Good luck with your choice,


That's a nice, balanced review.


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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