MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 4/2/2018 1:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:


If you threw me back on my 1976 custom SP racing bike with 52/42 13-21 5sp and a slammed Cinelli stem, I would be demonstrably unhappy -- and walking a lot.

Yeah, decrepitude is hell. You're still a little kid. You just wait.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 10:43:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 6:21:35 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did
and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I found the
video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others did
wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains.

The first rider who crashed rode the wrong line with a ridiculous high speed. Even with his ass on the rear wheel would not prevent that crash. Further there are some morons on the motor and in cars who stopped on a really stupid spot. Amateurs. Was this a pro race?

Lou

Yes, Tour of Utah. My son was on the tour crew the year after that crash.

2018 teams: https://www.tourofutah.com/race/teams No QuickStep and Niki Terpstra. You Netherlanders are on fire!

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 8:35:32 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did
and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I found the
video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others did
wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains.

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road champ and pro-continental cyclist. He made a split second error on the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash. Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was just a line of traffic up ahead.

“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road but the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan, really.

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in front of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the corner, I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.�

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything until he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing�.

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel any pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,� he said of that first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****, this is really bad’.�

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders were wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes after a grueling climb.

I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even steeper and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden it many times on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If you pick a wrong line, you're toast -- no matter how far you scoot back on your seat, and heavy braking even with your weight back will get you sliding sideways down the bank of the turn. And the road has that dusty slough on it.


-- Jay Beattie.

Ah that explains a lot.

Lou

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 8:40:17 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 10:43:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 6:21:35 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders did
and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I found the
video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others did
wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains.

The first rider who crashed rode the wrong line with a ridiculous high speed. Even with his ass on the rear wheel would not prevent that crash. Further there are some morons on the motor and in cars who stopped on a really stupid spot. Amateurs. Was this a pro race?

Lou

Yes, Tour of Utah. My son was on the tour crew the year after that crash..

2018 teams: https://www.tourofutah.com/race/teams No QuickStep and Niki Terpstra. You Netherlanders are on fire!

-- Jay Beattie.

Yeah, don't forget Anna van den Breggen. She won the ladies edition of the Ronde van Vlaanderen. I rode some of those hills. Man, my legs hurt just watching them lying on the couch after my Sunday morning club ride. Cobble stones are not my cup of tea.

Lou

On 3/31/2018 7:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-30 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/30/2018 10:27 AM, Joerg wrote:

Disc brakes afford a substantial increase in safety. I tend to adopt
things that increase safety, no matter where.

I doubt that. There are literally thousands of things a person could
possibly do to increase their "safety." Do you wear your bike helmet
when walking in the city, or when driving your car? Do you have six-foot
high flippy flags on your bikes?


I found an orange phone line indicator flag on a wire in the road
yesterday. Since the wire could puncture a tire I picked it up. I had a
flippy flag!


Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ... Do you always wear elbow and knee pads?
Have you thrown away all sharp knives in your home? Did you remove the
stairs in your home and install elevators?


There is a difference between reasonable effort and paranoia.


Again: There are always detriments as well as benefits. Yes, the
marketers and those proselytizing for their own choices go to great
length to overstate dangers and overstate benefits. Others are less
easily duped.

I'll put the latest "visibility" study in a separate thread.


The visibility issue I have solved years ago. MagicShine clones and
brig

I think he meant to write visibility "study" rather than "visibility" study.

On 3/29/2018 2:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

The pads wear, as with hydraulic brakes, but the adjustments are not
"constant."

Hydraulics are just too much fuss to maintain. No need for more bicycle
maintenance routines with bleeding brakes. Mechanical brakes just work.

On 4/2/2018 1:29 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 1:11 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 09:45, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

-snippity snip-

I will never go back
to rotors smaller than 8".

Yeah, mine are closer to 25".


+1

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2018-04-02 11:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 1:51 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 10:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:

The first rider who crashed enters the video at 0:20 and is already
sliding sideways.

Put you thinking cap on and ponder the reasons.

You don't know the reasons! You don't know what he was dealing with just
before he enters the frame! Pretending all would be cured by a different
riding posture is nonsense.


Yes, he was too fast which was his first mistake...

Note the riders at 0:27 and 0:28 did fine sitting on their saddles.

Sure, because they approached the curve very slowly, as I would have.

Well, there you have it! The Monday morning quarterback would have raced
much more slowly! Gosh, why don't more racers think of that simple
strategy? ;-)


You obviously do not understand it so I'll end the discussion here since
it's fruitless.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine
particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding,
just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to
mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have
cables that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is
cable the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once
set up you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish)
miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are game
changers in terms of performance and maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap
between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks is about as
powerful as the old commute MTB with its older and
cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared
to my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you
really talking about overall mechanical advantage - that
is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by
traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why
getting that amount of force from a one pound lever force
is better than getting it from a two pound lever force. I
can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a
fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight,
why do you think dropper posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video
here a while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve
during a Tour de France. The majority of riders who crashed did
not scoot behind the saddle for max braking action. These were
all professional riders yet they clearly lacked instincts any
serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the
day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders
did and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I
found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in
Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others
did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains.

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road
champ and pro-continental cyclist.


In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of MTB
rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Whenever I see a situation that
could go wrong I am behind the saddle. Even if the situation just feels
iffy.

It is not just the braking phase where he should have gone behind the
saddle, it is also the moment of impact. He just goes into the rear left
side of the car "as is". I had a similar situation with a VW Polo driver
blowing a stop sign, so close that there was no way to stop or slow down
much. I instinctively slid behind the handlebar and turned a bit. This
resulted in not having an uncontrolled exit from the bike and flying
through the air like this rider. Instead, it resulted in my right
shoulder blade and side absorbing the brunt of the impact. My upper body
smashed the driver side door to the point where the driver could no
longer open it from inside but I essentially remained on the remains of
my bike (which was pretzeled), lots of bruises but nothing serious. I
was able to help the elderly driver get out.


He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get back
on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash. Then
things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the first
corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was just a line
of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard.


“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road but
the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no
chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan,
really.

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in front
of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the corner,
I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.�

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything until
he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing�.

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel any
pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,� he said of that
first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****, this
is really bad’.�

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders were
wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes after a
grueling climb.


That altitude and "full throttle mode" can probably slow someone's
reaction. However, I was surprised that many riders did not take
instinctive countermeasures at all.


I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even steeper
and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden it many times
on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If you pick a wrong
line, you're toast -- no matter how far you scoot back on your seat,
and heavy braking even with your weight back will get you sliding
sideways down the bank of the turn. And the road has that dusty
slough on it.


Why did he not go behind the saddle and with his belly onto the seat?

It would not have stopped the crash this late in the game but it would
have improved the deceleration and reduced the force of impact into the car.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 4/2/2018 5:23 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road
champ and pro-continental cyclist.


In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of MTB
rider instinct I am rather sure I would.

Wow.

--
- Frank Krygowski