MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 2018-04-02 10:37, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 10:31:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/1/2018 9:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

And yet, for decades, I rode rim brakes in the rain, mud, etc.
The downside was the rim-lathe of grit against aluminum rims and
momentary loss of braking, but on a wet surface, the real problem
has always been traction.

The two times my bike didn't stop in the rain due to brake issues
we (1) pulling a trailer with my son in it on poorly adjusted
cantis with STI levers, and (2) descending a sled run out of the
West Hills with worn and unadjusted pads on cable discs. I
stopped and dialed in the pads which solved that problem. In both
cases, hard braking would have had me skidding down a wet road or
path.

I rode maybe 40-50 miles yesterday all climbing and descending on
my uber-bike (no instrumentation and no idea of elevation) with
direct mount calipers. It was dry, and I didn't give my brakes a
moment's thought. My braking issues were all about when I slowed
and road surface quality.

You may have done this for decades, but you were not having any
fun doing so.

I have a friend who used to go on and on about the greatness of
Price Club (now Costco). I asked him "Tom, how did you survive
before Price Club?" His response: "I survived, but it wasn't much
of a life."

I was riding yesterday on the Synapse that replaced the stolen
Roubaix that replaced the Cannondale CAAD 9 that went to college with
my son. We're getting all my son's bikes from Utah this weekend,
including the CAAD 9 and three other bikes. The Roubaix was
recovered. We have way too many bikes!

Also coming back is a Windsor Knight -- a $150 frame from Bike Island
that I built with a lot of left over 9 speed parts. It was my son's
first "fast" bike. I'm going to steal all the parts for my commuter
(spares) and Craigs list the frame. The CAAD 9 will probably go, too,
since my son wants a disc commuter. He gets pro deal on Cannondale,
so he'll probably get a disc bike from them.

Anyway, I was riding around on the Synapse which has both discs and
UDi2. It was sprinkling a little but not horrible, so the superior
braking was really irrelevant. The Di2 was neat because you can
climb out of the saddle and buzz through the gears. It shifts really
well under load, so doing the long rollers common to the hinterland,
it was like taking an escalator up.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3539/3...f58a6d14_b.jpg Does
this make riding more fun?


No!

Someone told me that Eddy Merckx said when asked about a giant chocolate
desert he was polishing off "Chocolate? No, that's not bad for you.
Hills, hills are what's bad for you".


... Well, it beats the sh** out of having to
flop down into the saddle and use DT friction shifting. It's also
awesome to have so many gears now that I am decrepit. I NEED the
gears now, but I could live with cable STI and rim brakes.

If you threw me back on my 1976 custom SP racing bike with 52/42
13-21 5sp and a slammed Cinelli stem, I would be demonstrably unhappy
-- and walking a lot.


That's what I had until a few years ago. Then I hacked a MTB cassette so
the largest cog in back was at first 28, then 32. Getting older ...

Later I switched the freehub to 7-speed because I crunched my last UG
freehub. The upside is that I don't have to hack the cassettes anymore.

On the ride yesterday my MTB buddy told me he got an 8-speed 13-50 from
somewhere, IIRC under $25. Now that's tempting! I'd even give up my
trusty old Shimano 600 derailer for that which I'd have to. I'd probably
have to hack the cassette again to reduce it to 7-speed but it sure
would make some really steep hills palatable. Those where I now use the
MTB instead which has the nimbleness of a tank.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine
particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding,
just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to
mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have
cables that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is
cable the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once
set up you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish)
miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are game
changers in terms of performance and maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap
between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks is about as
powerful as the old commute MTB with its older and
cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared
to my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you
really talking about overall mechanical advantage - that
is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by
traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why
getting that amount of force from a one pound lever force
is better than getting it from a two pound lever force. I
can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a
fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight,
why do you think dropper posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video
here a while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve
during a Tour de France. The majority of riders who crashed did
not scoot behind the saddle for max braking action. These were
all professional riders yet they clearly lacked instincts any
serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the
day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders
did and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I
found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in
Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others
did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains.

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road
champ and pro-continental cyclist.


In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of MTB
rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Whenever I see a situation that
could go wrong I am behind the saddle. Even if the situation just feels
iffy.

Mountain is not road. There is no steering with braking, and radically un-weighting your front wheel can result in wash-out on a reversed-bank descending turn. You need to push back on the saddle and maybe straighten your arms but you need both tires and both brakes working for you.

The crash in this case was caused by a rider being put over the apex of a turn, allegedly by support vehicle traffic. The rider was going too fast for the turn, and hard, positive braking would have done very little to prevent the crash. Brammeier made a mistake, but I guaranty you that he can beat you down any paved road. Go do some descending with national or world-class road cyclists and then report back. You'll learn just how bad you suck.


It is not just the braking phase where he should have gone behind the
saddle, it is also the moment of impact. He just goes into the rear left
side of the car "as is". I had a similar situation with a VW Polo driver
blowing a stop sign, so close that there was no way to stop or slow down
much. I instinctively slid behind the handlebar and turned a bit. This
resulted in not having an uncontrolled exit from the bike and flying
through the air like this rider. Instead, it resulted in my right
shoulder blade and side absorbing the brunt of the impact. My upper body
smashed the driver side door to the point where the driver could no
longer open it from inside but I essentially remained on the remains of
my bike (which was pretzeled), lots of bruises but nothing serious. I
was able to help the elderly driver get out.

He was allegedly bailing out directly across the apex of the turn when a car drove in front of him. He made a forced error in hitting the turn too fast on the inside.



He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get back
on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash. Then
things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the first
corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was just a line
of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard.

Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn looking across the apex planning his entry and exit. But he was pushed out of line by a support vehicle. **** happens.


“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road but
the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no
chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan,
really.

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in front
of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the corner,
I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.�

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything until
he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing�..

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel any
pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,� he said of that
first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****, this
is really bad’.�

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders were
wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes after a
grueling climb.


That altitude and "full throttle mode" can probably slow someone's
reaction. However, I was surprised that many riders did not take
instinctive countermeasures at all.

Have you ever raced road -- done a 100kph descent? The professional racers are taking counter-measures, but they're not just your one-trick-pony weight back measures. Watch Nibali descend -- he's generally centered over his bike through tight, fast turns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPHnqI13vPk You would be somewhere in his distant rear view mirror.

Counter-measures may in fact be bicycle dependent. Descending a hill not too far from Guardsman Pass, my technique was to squeeze my knees to the top tube and put a little more weight on the front-end because the bike I was riding had a slight front-end shimmy above 50mph. Speaking of, I was descending from Mirror Lake at maybe 50mph behind my son when he sat up in his saddle, took his hands of the bars and started flapping his arms like a bird.. http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2817/9...bc411f31_b.jpg It was precious. On caliper brakes -- no discs. Traffic, deer, mountain lions, zebras -- it was all happening on Bald Mountain.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.









I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even steeper
and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden it many times
on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If you pick a wrong
line, you're toast -- no matter how far you scoot back on your seat,
and heavy braking even with your weight back will get you sliding
sideways down the bank of the turn. And the road has that dusty
slough on it.


Why did he not go behind the saddle and with his belly onto the seat?

It would not have stopped the crash this late in the game but it would
have improved the deceleration and reduced the force of impact into the car.

Have you ever raced road? Have you descended above 100 kph into a hard left, reversed bank 10-15% descending turn surrounded by support vehicles?

On Mon, 02 Apr 2018 07:36:18 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

I had a look at the video you mention (in another post) and from what
I say every one of the riders were sitting back on the rear of the
saddle.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zojjIghKQoM

As for being behind the saddle? As the road racers are intent on
reducing their ""wind resistance" to a minimum they quite commonly do
this by leaning far forward over the bars. And of course the Rodies
are traveling much faster then the Dirty Boys, in fact they are often
pedaling hard on descents.




Again Modern MTB tyres can exert a surprising amount of grip even technical
terrain.

Has to be said it might be possible for a rim brake in the dry to exert the
same force, but once off perfect conditions its performance declines, I
have fond memories of glowing forearms from long wet MTB descents.

Such descents even on rigid bikes with disks such as my Gravel bike, are
far easier and frankly more fun!


Also much cheaper because after 2000mi of rough riding with rim brakes
the rims might be through and that gets expensive. Even replacing pads
is quicker with disc brakes. Drop out the wheel, remove the spring, old
pads drop out, scoot in new pads and spring, wheel back in, done. No
adjusting, toe-in and all that.

The prices are also interestingly different. Not that this matter much
but just noting. The lowest cost but well working pads for rim brakes I
found are Clarks from the UK, around $4-5/pair. The lowest cost pads
with good quality for Promax Decipher hydraulic disc brakes are $2/pair
from Hangzhou Novich.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 02 Apr 2018 14:23:50 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine
particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding,
just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to
mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have
cables that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is
cable the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once
set up you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish)
miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are game
changers in terms of performance and maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap
between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks is about as
powerful as the old commute MTB with its older and
cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared
to my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you
really talking about overall mechanical advantage - that
is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by
traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why
getting that amount of force from a one pound lever force
is better than getting it from a two pound lever force. I
can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a
fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight,
why do you think dropper posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video
here a while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve
during a Tour de France. The majority of riders who crashed did
not scoot behind the saddle for max braking action. These were
all professional riders yet they clearly lacked instincts any
serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the
day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders
did and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I
found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in
Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others
did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains.

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road
champ and pro-continental cyclist.


In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of MTB
rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Whenever I see a situation that
could go wrong I am behind the saddle. Even if the situation just feels
iffy.

It is not just the braking phase where he should have gone behind the
saddle, it is also the moment of impact. He just goes into the rear left
side of the car "as is". I had a similar situation with a VW Polo driver
blowing a stop sign, so close that there was no way to stop or slow down
much. I instinctively slid behind the handlebar and turned a bit. This
resulted in not having an uncontrolled exit from the bike and flying
through the air like this rider. Instead, it resulted in my right
shoulder blade and side absorbing the brunt of the impact. My upper body
smashed the driver side door to the point where the driver could no
longer open it from inside but I essentially remained on the remains of
my bike (which was pretzeled), lots of bruises but nothing serious. I
was able to help the elderly driver get out.


What I can't understand is that with all your vast range of skills and
vast knowledge why you aren't leading the peloton in the TdeF. But you
are not.

Which leads one to believe that you are just another "Monday morning
quarterback". Watching the TV and telling everyone how they should
have done it.


He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get back
on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash. Then
things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the first
corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was just a line
of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard.


“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road but
the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no
chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan,
really.

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in front
of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the corner,
I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.”

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything until
he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing”.

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel any
pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,” he said of that
first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****, this
is really bad’.”

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders were
wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes after a
grueling climb.


That altitude and "full throttle mode" can probably slow someone's
reaction. However, I was surprised that many riders did not take
instinctive countermeasures at all.


I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even steeper
and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden it many times
on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If you pick a wrong
line, you're toast -- no matter how far you scoot back on your seat,
and heavy braking even with your weight back will get you sliding
sideways down the bank of the turn. And the road has that dusty
slough on it.


Why did he not go behind the saddle and with his belly onto the seat?

It would not have stopped the crash this late in the game but it would
have improved the deceleration and reduced the force of impact into the car.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 1:18:50 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
Go do some descending with national or world-class road cyclists and then report back. You'll learn just how bad you suck.

Time for an anecdote. I was on ahum spring training trip in Spain two years ago in an area popular to pro riders (Calpe Spain). I was passed on a climb by a Sky rider. Little guy on an expensive Pinarello. At the top he had a **** and came out of the bushes so we started the descent together. It was not a difficult descent but after two hairpins I had to let him go. I had no chance keeping up with him. After the ride I was curious who that may have been so I looked at the Strava flybys and saw that it was Kwiatkoswki who had a 140 km trainings ride that morning.

Lou

On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed
kit for them. Cable disc brakes are fine for
pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB
riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to
mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear,
have cables that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road?
Is cable the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work,
once set up you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high
(ish) miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are
game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a
overlap between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks
is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with its
older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing
weak compared to my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you
really talking about overall mechanical advantage -
that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is
limited by traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail
to see why getting that amount of force from a one
pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all
day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s
a fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there
weight, why do you think dropper posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a
video here a while ago about a series crash in a steep
downhill curve during a Tour de France. The majority of
riders who crashed did not scoot behind the saddle for max
braking action. These were all professional riders yet they
clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the
day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those
riders did and would have likely either not crashed or not as
hard. I found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but
a race in Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some
others did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the
mountains.

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national
road champ and pro-continental cyclist.


In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of
MTB rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Whenever I see a
situation that could go wrong I am behind the saddle. Even if the
situation just feels iffy.

Mountain is not road. There is no steering with braking, and
radically un-weighting your front wheel can result in wash-out on a
reversed-bank descending turn. You need to push back on the saddle
and maybe straighten your arms but you need both tires and both
brakes working for you.


Do some tests, it isn't all that different between offroad and on
pavement. It's just that offroad you can wipe out much easier but the
physics are the same.


The crash in this case was caused by a rider being put over the apex
of a turn, allegedly by support vehicle traffic. The rider was going
too fast for the turn, and hard, positive braking would have done
very little to prevent the crash.


It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for that.
It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better, smacking
into a car at 40mph or at 30mph?


... Brammeier made a mistake, but I
guaranty you that he can beat you down any paved road. Go do some
descending with national or world-class road cyclists and then report
back. You'll learn just how bad you suck.


Sure they will beat me in downhill riding technique and pretty much any
otehr race-relevant skills. I do not corner well and I also never let'er
rip past 45mph on a long downhill stretch. Especially after the last
tire blow-out.

However, we were not talking about skills to win a race. We are talking
about reaction in emergencies and there was a clear lack visible in that
video. This is how it's done right:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...-on-a-bicycle/

Clearly some other riders in the video had the correct instincts and
posture approching this situation.


It is not just the braking phase where he should have gone behind
the saddle, it is also the moment of impact. He just goes into the
rear left side of the car "as is". I had a similar situation with a
VW Polo driver blowing a stop sign, so close that there was no way
to stop or slow down much. I instinctively slid behind the
handlebar and turned a bit. This resulted in not having an
uncontrolled exit from the bike and flying through the air like
this rider. Instead, it resulted in my right shoulder blade and
side absorbing the brunt of the impact. My upper body smashed the
driver side door to the point where the driver could no longer open
it from inside but I essentially remained on the remains of my bike
(which was pretzeled), lots of bruises but nothing serious. I was
able to help the elderly driver get out.

He was allegedly bailing out directly across the apex of the turn
when a car drove in front of him. He made a forced error in hitting
the turn too fast on the inside.


And wrong seat position. Afterwards wrong impact stance. He was lucky he
didn't hit the car a few feet more forward or he'd have gotten his face
cut up by the rack and stuff on top.



He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get
back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash.
Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the
first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was
just a line of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard.

Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn looking across
the apex planning his entry and exit. But he was pushed out of line
by a support vehicle. **** happens.


Right but when it does you need to react right then and there, not
seconds later.




“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road
but the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no
chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan,
really.

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in
front of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the
corner, I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.�

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything
until he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing�.

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel
any pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,� he said of
that first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****,
this is really bad’.�

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders
were wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes
after a grueling climb.


That altitude and "full throttle mode" can probably slow someone's
reaction. However, I was surprised that many riders did not take
instinctive countermeasures at all.

Have you ever raced road -- done a 100kph descent?


No, I find that too risky on li'l 25mm tires that can let their 110psi
go within a split second. Especially since I don't have medics following
me at every turn like these guys do.


... The professional racers are taking counter-measures, ...


Many of them clearly didn't in the emergency shown. Some did, and kudos
to them.


... but they're not just your
one-trick-pony weight back measures. Watch Nibali descend -- he's
generally centered over his bike through tight, fast turns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPHnqI13vPk You would be somewhere
in his distant rear view mirror.


He sure was in a hurry :-)

Sometimes that goes wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua-f0ETXO1Q

Looks like he isn't immune either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj9lqC2Oick


Counter-measures may in fact be bicycle dependent. Descending a hill
not too far from Guardsman Pass, my technique was to squeeze my knees
to the top tube and put a little more weight on the front-end because
the bike I was riding had a slight front-end shimmy above 50mph.


Mine does around 30mph but above it eases off again.


Speaking of, I was descending from Mirror Lake at maybe 50mph behind
my son when he sat up in his saddle, took his hands of the bars and
started flapping his arms like a bird.


My MTB buddy does that a lot. Scary.


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2817/9...bc411f31_b.jpg It
was precious. On caliper brakes -- no discs. Traffic, deer, mountain
lions, zebras -- it was all happening on Bald Mountain.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.









I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even
steeper and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden
it many times on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If
you pick a wrong line, you're toast -- no matter how far you
scoot back on your seat, and heavy braking even with your weight
back will get you sliding sideways down the bank of the turn.
And the road has that dusty slough on it.


Why did he not go behind the saddle and with his belly onto the
seat?

It would not have stopped the crash this late in the game but it
would have improved the deceleration and reduced the force of
impact into the car.

Have you ever raced road? Have you descended above 100 kph into a
hard left, reversed bank 10-15% descending turn surrounded by support
vehicles?


Why would I even want to do that?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-04-02 17:36, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2018 14:23:50 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On mine
particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding,
just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to
mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have
cables that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is
cable the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once
set up you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish)
miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are game
changers in terms of performance and maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap
between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks is about as
powerful as the old commute MTB with its older and
cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared
to my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you
really talking about overall mechanical advantage - that
is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by
traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why
getting that amount of force from a one pound lever force
is better than getting it from a two pound lever force. I
can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a
fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight,
why do you think dropper posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video
here a while ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve
during a Tour de France. The majority of riders who crashed did
not scoot behind the saddle for max braking action. These were
all professional riders yet they clearly lacked instincts any
serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the
day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those riders
did and would have likely either not crashed or not as hard. I
found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but a race in
Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some others
did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the mountains.

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national road
champ and pro-continental cyclist.


In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of MTB
rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Whenever I see a situation that
could go wrong I am behind the saddle. Even if the situation just feels
iffy.

It is not just the braking phase where he should have gone behind the
saddle, it is also the moment of impact. He just goes into the rear left
side of the car "as is". I had a similar situation with a VW Polo driver
blowing a stop sign, so close that there was no way to stop or slow down
much. I instinctively slid behind the handlebar and turned a bit. This
resulted in not having an uncontrolled exit from the bike and flying
through the air like this rider. Instead, it resulted in my right
shoulder blade and side absorbing the brunt of the impact. My upper body
smashed the driver side door to the point where the driver could no
longer open it from inside but I essentially remained on the remains of
my bike (which was pretzeled), lots of bruises but nothing serious. I
was able to help the elderly driver get out.


What I can't understand is that with all your vast range of skills and
vast knowledge why you aren't leading the peloton in the TdeF. But you
are not.


As I have explained numerous times I do not have the power and endurance
of any of those riders. There is a difference between the skills of
winning a race and the skills of handling an emergency situation.
Mastering the latter to a large extent matters more to me.


Which leads one to believe that you are just another "Monday morning
quarterback". Watching the TV and telling everyone how they should
have done it.


Believe what you want.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 03/04/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed
kit for them. Cable disc brakes are fine for
pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB
riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to
mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear,
have cables that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road?
Is cable the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work,
once set up you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high
(ish) miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are
game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a
overlap between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks
is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with its
older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing
weak compared to my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you
really talking about overall mechanical advantage -
that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is
limited by traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail
to see why getting that amount of force from a one
pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all
day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s
a fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there
weight, why do you think dropper posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a
video here a while ago about a series crash in a steep
downhill curve during a Tour de France. The majority of
riders who crashed did not scoot behind the saddle for max
braking action. These were all professional riders yet they
clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the
day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those
riders did and would have likely either not crashed or not as
hard. I found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but
a race in Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some
others did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the
mountains.

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national
road champ and pro-continental cyclist.


In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of
MTB rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Whenever I see a
situation that could go wrong I am behind the saddle. Even if the
situation just feels iffy.

Mountain is not road.Â* There is no steering with braking, and
radically un-weighting your front wheel can result in wash-out on a
reversed-bank descending turn. You need to push back on the saddle
and maybe straighten your arms but you need both tires and both
brakes working for you.


Do some tests, it isn't all that different between offroad and on
pavement. It's just that offroad you can wipe out much easier but the
physics are the same.


The crash in this case was caused by a rider being put over the apex
of a turn, allegedly by support vehicle traffic.Â* The rider was going
too fast for the turn, and hard, positive braking would have done
very little to prevent the crash.


It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for that.
It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better, smacking
into a car at 40mph or at 30mph?


Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* ... Brammeier made a mistake, but I
guaranty you that he can beat you down any paved road. Go do some
descending with national or world-class road cyclists and then report
back. You'll learn just how bad you suck.


Sure they will beat me in downhill riding technique and pretty much any
otehr race-relevant skills. I do not corner well and I also never let'er
rip past 45mph on a long downhill stretch. Especially after the last
tire blow-out.

However, we were not talking about skills to win a race. We are talking
about reaction in emergencies and there was a clear lack visible in that
video. This is how it's done right:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...-on-a-bicycle/

Clearly some other riders in the video had the correct instincts and
posture approching this situation.


It is not just the braking phase where he should have gone behind
the saddle, it is also the moment of impact. He just goes into the
rear left side of the car "as is". I had a similar situation with a
VW Polo driver blowing a stop sign, so close that there was no way
to stop or slow down much. I instinctively slid behind the
handlebar and turned a bit. This resulted in not having an
uncontrolled exit from the bike and flying through the air like
this rider. Instead, it resulted in my right shoulder blade and
side absorbing the brunt of the impact. My upper body smashed the
driver side door to the point where the driver could no longer open
it from inside but I essentially remained on the remains of my bike
(which was pretzeled), lots of bruises but nothing serious. I was
able to help the elderly driver get out.

He was allegedly bailing out directly across the apex of the turn
when a car drove in front of him. He made a forced error in hitting
the turn too fast on the inside.


And wrong seat position. Afterwards wrong impact stance. He was lucky he
didn't hit the car a few feet more forward or he'd have gotten his face
cut up by the rack and stuff on top.



He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race.Â* He was chasing to get
back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash.
Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the
first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was
just a line of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard.

Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn looking across
the apex planning his entry and exit.Â* But he was pushed out of line
by a support vehicle.Â* **** happens.


Right but when it does you need to react right then and there, not
seconds later.




“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road
but the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no
chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan,
really.

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in
front of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the
corner, I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.�

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything
until he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing�.

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel
any pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,� he said of
that first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****,
this is really bad’.�

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders
were wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes
after a grueling climb.


That altitude and "full throttle mode" can probably slow someone's
reaction. However, I was surprised that many riders did not take
instinctive countermeasures at all.

Have you ever raced road -- done a 100kph descent?


No, I find that too risky on li'l 25mm tires that can let their 110psi
go within a split second. Especially since I don't have medics following
me at every turn like these guys do.


Â* ... The professional racers are taking counter-measures, ...


Many of them clearly didn't in the emergency shown. Some did, and kudos
to them.


Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ... but they're not just your
one-trick-pony weight back measures.Â* Watch Nibali descend -- he's
generally centered over his bike through tight, fast turns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPHnqI13vPkÂ* You would be somewhere
in his distant rear view mirror.


He sure was in a hurry :-)

Sometimes that goes wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua-f0ETXO1Q

Looks like he isn't immune either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj9lqC2Oick


Counter-measures may in fact be bicycle dependent.Â* Descending a hill
not too far from Guardsman Pass, my technique was to squeeze my knees
to the top tube and put a little more weight on the front-end because
the bike I was riding had a slight front-end shimmy above 50mph.


Mine does around 30mph but above it eases off again.


Speaking of, I was descending from Mirror Lake at maybe 50mph behind
my son when he sat up in his saddle, took his hands of the bars and
started flapping his arms like a bird.


My MTB buddy does that a lot. Scary.


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2817/9...411f31_b.jpgÂ* It
was precious. On caliper brakes -- no discs. Traffic, deer, mountain
lions, zebras -- it was all happening on Bald Mountain.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.









I've been on that stretch of Guardsman, and that turn is even
steeper and tighter than it appears on video. My son has ridden
it many times on caliper brakes and CF rims -- fast, no discs. If
you pick a wrong line, you're toast -- no matter how far you
scoot back on your seat, and heavy braking even with your weight
back will get you sliding sideways down the bank of the turn.
And the road has that dusty slough on it.


Why did he not go behind the saddle and with his belly onto the
seat?

It would not have stopped the crash this late in the game but it
would have improved the deceleration and reduced the force of
impact into the car.

Have you ever raced road?Â* Have you descended above 100 kph into a
hard left, reversed bank 10-15% descending turn surrounded by support
vehicles?


Why would I even want to do that?


So that it would make more sense when you criticize professionals doing
that...

On 2018-04-02 17:13, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2018 07:36:18 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s a fairly green
Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there weight, why do you think dropper
posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a video here a while
ago about a series crash in a steep downhill curve during a Tour de
France. The majority of riders who crashed did not scoot behind the
saddle for max braking action. These were all professional riders yet
they clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

I had a look at the video you mention (in another post) and from what
I say every one of the riders were sitting back on the rear of the
saddle.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zojjIghKQoM


You need new glasses :-)


As for being behind the saddle? As the road racers are intent on
reducing their ""wind resistance" to a minimum they quite commonly do
this by leaning far forward over the bars. And of course the Rodies
are traveling much faster then the Dirty Boys, in fact they are often
pedaling hard on descents.


They were not pedaling into the cars and motorcycles. There is a time to
be pedaling hard and trying to produce as little wind resistance as
possible. Then there is a time where crash mitigation techniques are
paramount and those were clearly lacking with some riders.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-04-03 07:52, Duane wrote:
On 03/04/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

Have you ever raced road? Have you descended above 100 kph into a
hard left, reversed bank 10-15% descending turn surrounded by support
vehicles?


Why would I even want to do that?


So that it would make more sense when you criticize professionals doing
that...


Read more comprehensively. Then you'd know exactly what I criticized and
that it's not the above.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/