MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 4/4/2018 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:

It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for
that. It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better,
smacking into a car at 40mph or at 30mph?

I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the crash. Now
you're only claiming that if it were you, you would have crashed a bit
less hard. You're edging toward reasonableness.


I would not have crashed. The reason is very simple: I do not blast down
long hills at breakneck speed.

In other words, you would never have been in a race on that road, not
even a beginner's race. Which means any comments you make are completely
irrelevant.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2018-04-04 08:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2018 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:

It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for
that. It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better,
smacking into a car at 40mph or at 30mph?

I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the crash. Now
you're only claiming that if it were you, you would have crashed a bit
less hard. You're edging toward reasonableness.


I would not have crashed. The reason is very simple: I do not blast
down long hills at breakneck speed.

In other words, you would never have been in a race on that road, not
even a beginner's race. Which means any comments you make are completely
irrelevant.


Just because you don't understand them does not make them irrelevant.
Racers and non-racers can get into critical situations and then the
right (trained) reactions help.

The advantage of going behind the saddle is such situations may not be
obvious to you but it is to many experienced riders.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 6:37:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
big snip

Correction 4:47. First and second riders hitting the turn. Position
looks pretty normal to me, and maybe we're fighting over nothing.
Getting weight back for straight line slowing before a turn is common
-- but nobody is doing the hyper-Heine thing. That's not necessary.


It is necessary when you realize you are well into an "Oh s..t!"
situation. Why would anyone want to give up even a small portion of
braking action?

Your "instinct" in that situation is to avoid a wall impact, so you turn and brake which can cause a fish-tail, front wobble and high-side crash. If you shift your weight all the way back, the outcome is the same. Options are laying it down or leaning harder -- you may luck out and skittering through the turn, but with the reverse bank, the effective lean angle exceeds traction. So, the best bail-out in that situation is probably a low side crash.


Again, look at the three riders at :17. The guy on the outside is
classic -- practically straight outside leg, nice line into the turn,
weight centered. He comes across the apex and has room to spare on
the other side and probably would have carried even more speed
through the turn if there weren't traffic. Brammeier ski-jumped over
the top of the turn. Personally, I like the guy who threads his way
around the outside of the turn, past the officials and spectators.
"Excuse me, pardon me, I'm racing here . . . "


It makes no sense to belabor this forever. Fact is there were several
riders in this video with the correct instincts who went well behind the
saddle and didn't crash. I have pointed them out. Of the ones that
crashed none went behind the saddle.

It is worthwhile belaboring one "fact." There is nothing instinctive about high speed descending. It is a learned skill, and instinct is what often gets you into trouble.

The entire pack minus the three who hit support vehicles made it through the turn by moderating their speed before the turn. Some may have shifted their weight back to counter late, hard front braking and others may have simply slowed earlier out of the prior turn. My guess is that the most successful riders were more familiar with the course and were setting up earlier for the left and didn't engage in any panic-like braking.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 9:17:14 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 08:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2018 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:

It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for
that. It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better,
smacking into a car at 40mph or at 30mph?

I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the crash. Now
you're only claiming that if it were you, you would have crashed a bit
less hard. You're edging toward reasonableness.


I would not have crashed. The reason is very simple: I do not blast
down long hills at breakneck speed.

In other words, you would never have been in a race on that road, not
even a beginner's race. Which means any comments you make are completely
irrelevant.


Just because you don't understand them does not make them irrelevant.
Racers and non-racers can get into critical situations and then the
right (trained) reactions help.

The advantage of going behind the saddle is such situations may not be
obvious to you but it is to many experienced riders.

I'm an experienced former USCF/USAC racer and rode the whole time you were side-lined by traffic, including super-gnarly road races with dangerous descents at brake-neck speeds with a bunch of incompetent Cat 3 racers -- and then 1,2,3 masters who were a lot more competent and often out of sight before I got to the downhill. I also climb and descend every day.

Personally, as a recognized expert in my own mind, I only get "behind my saddle" for hard, in-line braking to prevent pitch over. Descending I plan ahead -- pick a line and brake reasonably before hitting the turn and keep my weight low and centered over the bike to maximize contact with both tires.. I'll shift my weight back to counter front braking forces before a turn, but it's not some "belly on the top tube" super-awesome thing.

Most "critical" situations descending are irreparable and involve total loss of traction. If I carry too much speed into a turn and have to brake in the turn while the bike is pitched over, I try to brake lightly and stay relaxed -- which is really counter-instinctive. I've only bailed into the bushes once in my life. Hard braking of any kind -- with my butt back or not -- will cause the front or rear wheel to lose traction, or it will cause the bike to stand up and a high side crash. This is where road biking differs from mountain biking -- you cant stick the rear wheel and skid a turn. When the sh** hits the fan, I try for a low side crash -- which didn't work the last time. Instead, I did exactly like you said -- weight back, hard braking while set in a turn to avoid my son who was sliding around on the road in front of me. Bike stood up, front wheel wobbled, and I did a high-side cartwheel right over him. I now have a plate in my right hand to memorialize the crash. I think its engraved with "always remember, give your son more room when descending a wet road and he's riding on slippery OE tires."

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2018-04-04 09:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 6:37:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: big
snip

Correction 4:47. First and second riders hitting the turn.
Position looks pretty normal to me, and maybe we're fighting over
nothing. Getting weight back for straight line slowing before a
turn is common -- but nobody is doing the hyper-Heine thing.
That's not necessary.


It is necessary when you realize you are well into an "Oh s..t!"
situation. Why would anyone want to give up even a small portion
of braking action?

Your "instinct" in that situation is to avoid a wall impact, so you
turn and brake which can cause a fish-tail, front wobble and
high-side crash. If you shift your weight all the way back, the
outcome is the same.


It's not the same. Going behind the saddle you can hit the front brake
much harder and then hit the car less hard. Or in this case possibly not
at all because it may have barely gone out of the way by then and the
rider would have ended up in the vegetation.


... Options are laying it down or leaning harder --
you may luck out and skittering through the turn, but with the
reverse bank, the effective lean angle exceeds traction. So, the best
bail-out in that situation is probably a low side crash.


Laying is iffy if there is a high chance of sliding underneath a moving car.


Again, look at the three riders at :17. The guy on the outside
is classic -- practically straight outside leg, nice line into
the turn, weight centered. He comes across the apex and has room
to spare on the other side and probably would have carried even
more speed through the turn if there weren't traffic. Brammeier
ski-jumped over the top of the turn. Personally, I like the guy
who threads his way around the outside of the turn, past the
officials and spectators. "Excuse me, pardon me, I'm racing here
. . ."


It makes no sense to belabor this forever. Fact is there were
several riders in this video with the correct instincts who went
well behind the saddle and didn't crash. I have pointed them out.
Of the ones that crashed none went behind the saddle.

It is worthwhile belaboring one "fact." There is nothing instinctive
about high speed descending. It is a learned skill, and instinct is
what often gets you into trouble.


I am not talking about descending but about emergency braking. That
requires split second reaction, something dirt and mountain bikers call
muscle memory. Where you don't even think but instictively do the right
thing, and in this case that is going behind the saddle.


The entire pack minus the three who hit support vehicles made it
through the turn by moderating their speed before the turn. Some may
have shifted their weight back to counter late, hard front braking ...


Exactly!


and others may have simply slowed earlier out of the prior turn. My
guess is that the most successful riders were more familiar with the
course and were setting up earlier for the left and didn't engage in
any panic-like braking.


To me it clearly looks like some had the right instincts and some didn't.

Such instinctive reaction has to either come from thousands of miles of
hard MTB riding or from training. Like with pilots where the examiner
will yank the throttle for the engine without any warning, sometimes at
a moment where that isn't cool at all. Pilots get trained for "what-if"
scenarios so they remain level-headed like this guy who lost the whole
propeller in mid-flight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MEapiGMbxw

I don't know if pro cyclists do emergency procedure training but in the
Guardsman video it sure doesn't look like all had such training.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-04-04 10:01, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 9:17:14 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 08:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2018 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:

It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too
late for that. It is about reducing the severity of the
crash. What is better, smacking into a car at 40mph or at
30mph?

I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the
crash. Now you're only claiming that if it were you, you
would have crashed a bit less hard. You're edging toward
reasonableness.


I would not have crashed. The reason is very simple: I do not
blast down long hills at breakneck speed.

In other words, you would never have been in a race on that road,
not even a beginner's race. Which means any comments you make are
completely irrelevant.


Just because you don't understand them does not make them
irrelevant. Racers and non-racers can get into critical situations
and then the right (trained) reactions help.

The advantage of going behind the saddle is such situations may not
be obvious to you but it is to many experienced riders.

I'm an experienced former USCF/USAC racer and rode the whole time you
were side-lined by traffic, including super-gnarly road races with
dangerous descents at brake-neck speeds with a bunch of incompetent
Cat 3 racers -- and then 1,2,3 masters who were a lot more competent
and often out of sight before I got to the downhill. I also climb
and descend every day.

Personally, as a recognized expert in my own mind, I only get "behind
my saddle" for hard, in-line braking to prevent pitch over.
Descending I plan ahead -- pick a line and brake reasonably before
hitting the turn and keep my weight low and centered over the bike to
maximize contact with both tires. I'll shift my weight back to
counter front braking forces before a turn, but it's not some "belly
on the top tube" super-awesome thing.

Most "critical" situations descending are irreparable and involve
total loss of traction. If I carry too much speed into a turn and
have to brake in the turn while the bike is pitched over, I try to
brake lightly and stay relaxed -- which is really
counter-instinctive. I've only bailed into the bushes once in my
life. Hard braking of any kind -- with my butt back or not -- will
cause the front or rear wheel to lose traction, or it will cause the
bike to stand up and a high side crash. This is where road biking
differs from mountain biking -- you cant stick the rear wheel and
skid a turn. When the sh** hits the fan, I try for a low side crash
-- which didn't work the last time. Instead, I did exactly like you
said -- weight back, hard braking while set in a turn to avoid my son
who was sliding around on the road in front of me. Bike stood up,
front wheel wobbled, and I did a high-side cartwheel right over him.
I now have a plate in my right hand to memorialize the crash. I
think its engraved with "always remember, give your son more room
when descending a wet road and he's riding on slippery OE tires."


Ouch, that must have been a bad crash. Your son was probably lucky that
you "pivoted" across him and not into him.

I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a
chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer
jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:


I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a
chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer
jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.

If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're not
riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you, you're
not much of a rider.

You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not ride too
close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid riders every
day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun competing and
training or just touring.

My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because we
worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good at
drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise.

Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much fun.
And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on the bike.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/4/2018 12:17 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 08:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2018 9:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2018 10:47 AM, Joerg wrote:

It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for
that. It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better,
smacking into a car at 40mph or at 30mph?

I'm glad you're no longer implying he could have avoided the crash. Now
you're only claiming that if it were you, you would have crashed a bit
less hard. You're edging toward reasonableness.


I would not have crashed. The reason is very simple: I do not blast
down long hills at breakneck speed.

In other words, you would never have been in a race on that road, not
even a beginner's race. Which means any comments you make are completely
irrelevant.


Just because you don't understand them does not make them irrelevant.
Racers and non-racers can get into critical situations and then the
right (trained) reactions help.

The advantage of going behind the saddle is such situations may not be
obvious to you but it is to many experienced riders.

"I can't BELIEVE he didn't pass on that play! He should have seen that
linebacker coming from a mile away! The wide receiver looked open to me!"

"Hey, get me another Miller Lite, would ya? It's gettin' hard for me to
get up from this sofa. It's my back, y'know."

Monday morning quarterback.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/4/2018 1:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-04 09:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 6:37:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: big
snip

Correction 4:47. First and second riders hitting the turn.
Position looks pretty normal to me, and maybe we're fighting over
nothing. Getting weight back for straight line slowing before a
turn is common -- but nobody is doing the hyper-Heine thing.
That's not necessary.


It is necessary when you realize you are well into an "Oh s..t!"
situation. Why would anyone want to give up even a small portion
of braking action?

Your "instinct" in that situation is to avoid a wall impact, so you
turn and brake which can cause a fish-tail, front wobble and
high-side crash. If you shift your weight all the way back, the
outcome is the same.


It's not the same. Going behind the saddle you can hit the front brake
much harder and then hit the car less hard. Or in this case possibly not
at all because it may have barely gone out of the way by then and the
rider would have ended up in the vegetation.


Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ...Â* Options are laying it down or leaning harder --
you may luck out and skittering through the turn, but with the
reverse bank, the effective lean angle exceeds traction. So, the best
bail-out in that situation is probably a low side crash.


Laying is iffy if there is a high chance of sliding underneath a moving
car.


Again, look at the three riders at :17. The guy on the outside
is classic -- practically straight outside leg, nice line into
the turn, weight centered. He comes across the apex and has room
to spare on the other side and probably would have carried even
more speed through the turn if there weren't traffic. Brammeier
ski-jumped over the top of the turn. Personally, I like the guy
who threads his way around the outside of the turn, past the
officials and spectators. "Excuse me, pardon me, I'm racing here
. . ."


It makes no sense to belabor this forever. Fact is there were
several riders in this video with the correct instincts who went
well behind the saddle and didn't crash. I have pointed them out.
Of the ones that crashed none went behind the saddle.

It is worthwhile belaboring one "fact." There is nothing instinctive
about high speed descending.Â* It is a learned skill, and instinct is
what often gets you into trouble.


I am not talking about descending but about emergency braking. That
requires split second reaction, something dirt and mountain bikers call
muscle memory. Where you don't even think but instictively do the right
thing, and in this case that is going behind the saddle.


The entire pack minus the three who hit support vehicles made it
through the turn by moderating their speed before the turn.Â* Some may
have shifted their weight back to counter late, hard front braking ...


Exactly!


and others may have simply slowed earlier out of the prior turn.Â* My
guess is that the most successful riders were more familiar with the
course and were setting up earlier for the left and didn't engage in
any panic-like braking.


To me it clearly looks like some had the right instincts and some didn't.

Such instinctive reaction has to either come from thousands of miles of
hard MTB riding or from training. Like with pilots where the examiner
will yank the throttle for the engine without any warning, sometimes at
a moment where that isn't cool at all. Pilots get trained for "what-if"
scenarios so they remain level-headed like this guy who lost the whole
propeller in mid-flight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MEapiGMbxw

I don't know if pro cyclists do emergency procedure training but in the
Guardsman video it sure doesn't look like all had such training.

I see yet another opportunity for your fame and fortune, Joerg. Coaching
professional racing cyclists!

You can use the transcript of this thread for advertising. They'll beat
a path to your door! ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 12:01:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:


I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a
chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer
jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.

If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're not
riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you, you're
not much of a rider.

You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not ride too
close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid riders every
day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun competing and
training or just touring.

My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because we
worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good at
drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise.

Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much fun.
And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on the bike.

I let it space out on descents. I wasn't that close to my son and would have had enough room to get by him if he hadn't hockey-pucked down-slope on the reverse-banked turn. It was hard to plot a course with a moving object in front of me.

Joerg's super-human MTB skills give him an advantage over mortal road racers in some situations, e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr89ku-K2WU BTW, Beloki's crash is exactly Joerg's "instinct" scenario -- Beloki loses traction, shifts weight back and brakes and then high-side crashes -- and breaks his leg, among other bones. Slow-mo here at :34. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8m5-sR6I4

What my CX and MTB friends do better than me is go over things. I just try to avoid those things, but it would be neat to be Peter Sagan: https://www..youtube.com/watch?v=pxwP2MnDw28 He didn't need to do that, but if he had been squeezed, it was an option. the usual option is ala track racing -- push the guy next to you out of the way.

-- Jay Beattie.