innovation risks

Speaking of innovation and its risks:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...e-improvements

and

http://sramroadhydraulicbrakerecall....ncement-video/

Obviously, this system is intended for the elite, not for hacker mechanics. But most bikes get maintained by hackers. Seems like anything requiring thousandths-of-inches precision is a bad idea.

I had an engineer friend who once worked in military helicopter design. He said that on the wall of the engineering design room was a rather small collection of tools, with a sign saying something like "It must be repaired using only these tools."

Perhaps bike component companies should use that same trick, with the tools being just one screwdriver, a rusty crescent wrench, a bent pair of pliers and a hammer.

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:15:55 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Speaking of innovation and its risks:



http://www.businessweek.com/articles...e-improvements



and



http://sramroadhydraulicbrakerecall....ncement-video/



Obviously, this system is intended for the elite, not for hacker mechanics. But most bikes get maintained by hackers. Seems like anything requiring thousandths-of-inches precision is a bad idea.



I had an engineer friend who once worked in military helicopter design. He said that on the wall of the engineering design room was a rather small collection of tools, with a sign saying something like "It must be repaired using only these tools."



Perhaps bike component companies should use that same trick, with the tools being just one screwdriver, a rusty crescent wrench, a bent pair of pliers and a hammer.



- Frank Krygowski

Many yearsag, despite having read to let new bicycle products see a couple of years of use by others, I bought a brand new Suntour Mountech rear derailler that had a completely sealed body. The next day I mounted the bicycle by pushing down on one peal whilst swinging my other leg over the bike. The derailler moved to the next highest gear and destroyed all the internal parts. Shop would not cover it under warranty. After that experience I made sure to let the other guys/gals try new innovative stuff for a least a couple of years. That decision prevented me from bying some very short lived stuff after it came out. Stuff such as the Sante groupset from Shimano that looked fantastic but was only available for a couple of years before disappearing.

When I see how the average rider rides and how infrequently they shif gears I can't hlp but think that a lightweight 3-speed or even a lightweight single speed would be far better for them. I also remember when City Bikes were marketed with a 6 gear drivetrain - 1 chainring and 6 cogs. I often think that many high end bicycles are going the way of cars - intricate parts that can only be repaired/replaced by a shop mechanic.

When my 9-speed stuff dies I'll be returning to 7 speed for the ease of maintenance and the huge savings in replacement costs.

Cheers

On Sat, 18 Jan 2014 10:15:55 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Speaking of innovation and its risks:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles...e-improvements

That's a good example of "the sky is falling" style journalism. Stop
everything, we've had a failure. The general public doesn't care much
about high end bicycle component recalls, so the magazine gave them
something to worry about. Unfortunately, the author doesn't make the
connection between that looks like Chinese outsourced manufacturing
screwup, and the end of progress as we know it.

He also screws up elsewhe
"He likes to tell the doctors and dentists on the fanciest new
bikes an apocryphal story about a friend. "The guy’s riding down
the road on his tubeless wheels," Lubanski says. "Catastrophic
failu He hits his brakes, the fluid runs out, and he’s
electrocuted by his electronics."
DOT4 fluid used in hydraulic brake systems is not conductive. You can
pour it into the electric bicycle battery and nothing will happen. Of
course, Business Weak didn't bother to mention that it was an electric
bicycle. What might have caused the authors confusion is that
conductivity meters are often used to measure the water content of
hydraulic fluids, since water is conductive.

and
http://sramroadhydraulicbrakerecall....ncement-video/

Nice video. Oddly, the end of progress as we know it in bicycle
component design was not predicted by the company president.

Obviously, this system is intended for the elite, not for hacker mechanics.
But most bikes get maintained by hackers. Seems like anything requiring
thousandths-of-inches precision is a bad idea.

Yep, especially with aluminum, where changes in temperature can easily
cause a tight tolerance part to jam.

I had an engineer friend who once worked in military helicopter design.
He said that on the wall of the engineering design room was a rather
small collection of tools, with a sign saying something like "It must
be repaired using only these tools."

That's the military, which doesn't really believe in repairing
anything. Most likely, the tools were for remove and replace
exercises. Today, the military helicopter would have a sticker on the
engine saying "No user serviceable parts inside". The days of user
serviceable electronics are numbered.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
http://www.wired.com/opinion/2014/01/174071/
How would you like an automobile where user replacement of the battery
is prohibited and enforced by the manufacturer with DRM (digital
rights management)?
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/11/drm-cars-will-drive-consumers-crazy
I'll casually mention Apple and it's trend toward selling
non-repairable computers, with a pre-calculated lifetime.
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1752
If it's between 5 and 7 years old, it's a "vintage" product, which
means it might be unusable, even if it's still working.

I expect bicycles to eventually follow this trend. Hopefully, I
won't be around to see it happen.

Perhaps bike component companies should use that same trick, with the
tools being just one screwdriver, a rusty crescent wrench, a bent
pair of pliers and a hammer.

Maybe. I have a different nightmare based on the way custom tailored
suits and computer software are sold. You arrive at the LBS and
browse through the demo machines and electronic catalogs. You are
interviewed and measured by the LBS for fit, which is recorded in the
computah. After some consideration, you select the maker, style,
model, color, components, options, accessories, and packaging. All
these are also entered into the computah. After payment, the order is
place and in a few days or weeks, your custom bicycle arrives.
Everything on the bicycle is to your measurements, just like a custom
suit. Others can try to ride it, but will probably feel awkward. By
design, it is a one person bicycle. It also has most of the major
components welded, bonded, glued, or attached with security screws.
While it may still be possible to replace "wear components", the major
parts of the frame and drive train are effectively not user
replaceable. If you need work, it goes back to the factory for
replacement or refurbishing. None of the fittings will bit a common
screwdriver, crescent wrench, bent pliers, or hammer. For the
privilege of owning an unrepairable, unsellable, and single user
machine, you are granted a low entry cost and a lifetime warranty, but
only if you bring it into the LBS for an annual inspection, mostly to
see if you've tried to fix it yourself.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

is Sram the manufacturer or are Srams drop shipped from China or Tywan ?

deeese eees dinero real !

http://www.artscyclery.com/Sram_Red_...-SRR22DBF.html


we pass....

On 19/01/14 05:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Speaking of innovation and its risks:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...e-improvements

and

http://sramroadhydraulicbrakerecall....ncement-video/

Obviously, this system is intended for the elite, not for hacker
mechanics. But most bikes get maintained by hackers. Seems like
anything requiring thousandths-of-inches precision is a bad idea.

I had an engineer friend who once worked in military helicopter
design. He said that on the wall of the engineering design room was
a rather small collection of tools, with a sign saying something like
"It must be repaired using only these tools."

Perhaps bike component companies should use that same trick, with the
tools being just one screwdriver, a rusty crescent wrench, a bent
pair of pliers and a hammer.


The cable actuated disc brakes on my MTB are not difficult to play with
using regular bike mechanic tools.

--
JS

On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:31:15 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2014 10:15:55 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:

Speaking of innovation and its risks:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...e-improvements

That's a good example of "the sky is falling" style journalism. Stop
everything, we've had a failure.

Well, publishing is a tough business. Gotta write about something!

The general public doesn't care much
about high end bicycle component recalls, so the magazine gave them
something to worry about. Unfortunately, the author doesn't make the
connection between that looks like Chinese outsourced manufacturing
screwup, and the end of progress as we know it.

In a world where almost all manufacturing is outsourced to China, it's not surprising that there would be such problems.

He also screws up elsewhe
"He likes to tell the doctors and dentists on the fanciest new
bikes an apocryphal story about a friend. "The guy�s riding down
the road on his tubeless wheels," Lubanski says. "Catastrophic
failu He hits his brakes, the fluid runs out, and he�s
electrocuted by his electronics."

DOT4 fluid used in hydraulic brake systems is not conductive...

I'm pretty sure that whole paragraph was not to be taken seriously.

I had an engineer friend who once worked in military helicopter design.
He said that on the wall of the engineering design room was a rather
small collection of tools, with a sign saying something like "It must
be repaired using only these tools."

That's the military, which doesn't really believe in repairing
anything. Most likely, the tools were for remove and replace
exercises.

Doubtlessly.

http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

That hangs in my workshop!

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:44:20 PM UTC-5, James wrote:

The cable actuated disc brakes on my MTB are not difficult to play with
using regular bike mechanic tools.

Seriously, that's important to me. Even if I'm just riding into the next county - let alone across the state - I want to be able to fix my bike with a very small set of tools that I bring along. For me, hydraulic actuated anything isn't going to allow that. And even for road racing, it's hard for me to believe the performance benefits of hydro brakes would be measurable, in terms of seconds per lap or finishing position. (Yeah, I know that cyclocross =/= road.)

But I do tend to be skeptical of such things, as people know.

- Frank Krygowski

On 18/01/2014 20:31, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

DOT4 fluid used in hydraulic brake systems is not conductive.

Neither is the oil-based fluid used in hydraulic brake systems - Shimano
and Magura don't use DOT fluid.

(and neither does my car, as I may have mentioned before :-) )

http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/...-disc-updated/

is an interesting article - the various manufacturers all saying "no,
what _we_ use is the best" :-)

On Saturday, January 18, 2014 5:48:10 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:44:20 PM UTC-5, James wrote:



The cable actuated disc brakes on my MTB are not difficult to play with

using regular bike mechanic tools.



Seriously, that's important to me. Even if I'm just riding into the next county - let alone across the state - I want to be able to fix my bike with a very small set of tools that I bring along. For me, hydraulic actuated anything isn't going to allow that. And even for road racing, it's hard for me to believe the performance benefits of hydro brakes would be measurable, in terms of seconds per lap or finishing position. (Yeah, I know that cyclocross =/= road.)



But I do tend to be skeptical of such things, as people know.



- Frank Krygowski

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

using brakes to go deep onto a turn's apex....every time...requires a system producing almost identical results every time. If rider A has that system and rider B does not....B finishing behind A several times...asks B to install A's system...as these things go in a competitive crowd of 'enthusiasts'

I'm not sure if this has an application to bike racing results but if you have the $$$ to pursue...or at the pro level a required pursue....so the SPONSOR said...

On Sat, 18 Jan 2014 23:16:58 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 18/01/2014 20:31, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

DOT4 fluid used in hydraulic brake systems is not conductive.

Neither is the oil-based fluid used in hydraulic brake systems - Shimano
and Magura don't use DOT fluid.

I stand partly corrected. I checked to see what SRAM recommends.
DOT 4 or DOT 5.1. I'm fairly sure that none of the fluids mentioned
are conductive.

Background info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid

(and neither does my car, as I may have mentioned before :-) )

http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/04/11/...-disc-updated/

is an interesting article - the various manufacturers all saying "no,
what _we_ use is the best" :-)

Thanks. Of course, the best is whatever they are selling. This is
beginning to sound very much like the multitude of different chain oil
lubricant claims.

Shimano magic mineral oil sounds much like snake oil to me. Mineral
oil is so vague a term that it could be almost anything (paraffin,
naphtha, laxative). It used to be really expensive, but now can be
found for about $25 per liter.

http://forums.mtbr.com/brake-time/mineral-oil-brake-fluid-cheap-453362.html

Nobody has said anything about rubber compatibility and rubber life. I
recently had a problem with my clutch master cylinder and pressure
hose on my Subaru. Recommended fluid is DOT 3. All the rubber parts
in the system died simultaneously. I think the brake system might be
next to fail as the fluid in the brake reservoir is also black. The
piston seals in the master cylinder were sticky goo. I don't have a
definite culprit yet, but it appears that whatever oil was used
eventually destroyed many of the rubber parts. I'm wondering if any
of the hydraulic bicycle brake systems might eventually have the same
problem.

Incidentally, my hydraulic line bleed kit.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/syringes.html
10ml, 60ml, and 3ml respectively. The vinyl hoses are in the trash
awaiting replacement. Works better than any brake bleed kit I've
tried so far.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558