Horst link bending forces

AMuzi wrote:

whatever. Campagnolo does low gears better
now:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfd18r3.jpg

Is that an old sticker or do they/you still
deal with 531?

Not that there is anything wrong with it, not
today and not in a 1000 years from now...

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 11:18:55 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 2:48:30 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 07 Feb 2018 18:33:55 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

lou.holtman wrote:

From 105 and up it is hard to tell the
difference when clean. I think I can tell the
difference between 105 and DA especially
shifting in front and braking. But is it
worth the price difference? I don't know but
Shimano have to realize that they make their
profit because the regular cyclist buys DA
components and I think it's a shame that they
don't offer the proper gearing for the
regular cyclist in DA quality.

"Proper gearing for the regular cyclist", is
that some casette/chainrings configuration that
the pros have different?

From what I read Dura Ace offers, in 10 speed, 11-21/11-23/11-28/12-23
and 12-27, cassettes and chain wheel combinations in a number of
combinations, the lowest of which seems to be 50/34 teeth. They also
offer 7 different length of crank arm ranging from 165 to 180mm.

That should keep most road cyclists happy.
--
Cheers,

John B.

For 20 km climbs with stretches of more the 11% a 34/27 combination is not low enough for a lot of people that can afford a DA group. In the latest DA version they offer a 34/30 gear combination so it is getting better. But why not offer a 34/32 like Ultegra?
You have the money to spend and willing to do so and you are 'forced' to buy Ultegra. What kind of marketing is that?

Pretty typical marketing, although it does miss a marketing opportunity. Dura Ace and Record/Super Record has always catered to the racing crowd -- even the triples were "racing triples." Has DA ever had a long-cage derailleur? Perhaps the number of potential long-cage sales does not justify the manufacturing cost. Whatever the reason, the marketing decision was made 40-some years ago.

Checking the web, niche marketing seems to be offering Dura Ace groups with Ultegra RD and 32t cassette.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2/8/2018 2:18 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 2:48:30 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 07 Feb 2018 18:33:55 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

lou.holtman wrote:

From 105 and up it is hard to tell the
difference when clean. I think I can tell the
difference between 105 and DA especially
shifting in front and braking. But is it
worth the price difference? I don't know but
Shimano have to realize that they make their
profit because the regular cyclist buys DA
components and I think it's a shame that they
don't offer the proper gearing for the
regular cyclist in DA quality.

"Proper gearing for the regular cyclist", is
that some casette/chainrings configuration that
the pros have different?

From what I read Dura Ace offers, in 10 speed, 11-21/11-23/11-28/12-23
and 12-27, cassettes and chain wheel combinations in a number of
combinations, the lowest of which seems to be 50/34 teeth. They also
offer 7 different length of crank arm ranging from 165 to 180mm.

That should keep most road cyclists happy.
--
Cheers,

John B.

For 20 km climbs with stretches of more the 11% a 34/27 combination is not low enough for a lot of people that can afford a DA group. In the latest DA version they offer a 34/30 gear combination so it is getting better. But why not offer a 34/32 like Ultegra?
You have the money to spend and willing to do so and you are 'forced' to buy Ultegra. What kind of marketing is that?

We may not like it, but it seems to be reasonably successful marketing.

I think we see the same advertising logic in other places. A Corvette or
Ferrari could be just as fast if it had room to carry two more full-size
suitcases. And (for many years) racing bikes could have been just as
fast if they had room for 32mm tires. There seems to be some cachet
attached to "This is impractical, and that shows it's _serious_, man!"

It is odd, though, that by the time many people can afford Dura-Ace,
they're not strong enough to ride it. More exclusivity, I suppose.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski wrote:

It is odd, though, that by the time many
people can afford Dura-Ace, they're not
strong enough to ride it. More exclusivity,
I suppose.

1. No one, save for perhaps the top 15 guys,
need anything better than Ultegra.

2. Because DA doesn't even have the right gear,
Ultegra is actually better (or some DA/U
combination is)

3. It is very frustrating!

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 01:32:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 10:19:31 AM UTC+1, Emanuel Berg wrote:
lou.holtman wrote:

The problem is the capacity of the DA RD.
Off course you can make it work mixing
groupset parts but that is not my point.
If you only want it to work buy 105 but then
you get also a heavy groupset with an
ugly finish.

Don't take this the wrong way but this sounds
like some hang-up. I mean, I have hang-ups
myself so I'm not judgemental. But especially
since you say you don't really feel any
difference except for maybe when not clean and
in a 20km 11% hill...? It sounds like bringing
so much stuff to K2 suddenly the caravan can't
continue because to feed all the porters, you
need even more porters?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

I don't know what you trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of people that like the incredible shifting performance, the low weight, the looks of DA gruppo and are willing to pay the price but they also need low enough gearing which is not available in DA. From Shimano marketing point of view I find this strange because the margine of DA is much larger that of 105 or Ultegra.

Lou

I might comment that I have substituted various Shimano made cassettes
with various Shimano shifters and crank sets and even made up "custom"
cassettes using Shimano parts taken from other Shimano cassettes. To
data they have all shifted with no problems, assuming of course that
one doesn't try to mix numbers of sprockets, i.e. don't mix 7 speed
and 9 speed, for example.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:43 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 01:32:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 10:19:31 AM UTC+1, Emanuel Berg wrote:
lou.holtman wrote:

The problem is the capacity of the DA RD.
Off course you can make it work mixing
groupset parts but that is not my point.
If you only want it to work buy 105 but then
you get also a heavy groupset with an
ugly finish.

Don't take this the wrong way but this sounds
like some hang-up. I mean, I have hang-ups
myself so I'm not judgemental. But especially
since you say you don't really feel any
difference except for maybe when not clean and
in a 20km 11% hill...? It sounds like bringing
so much stuff to K2 suddenly the caravan can't
continue because to feed all the porters, you
need even more porters?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

I don't know what you trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of people that like the incredible shifting performance, the low weight, the looks of DA gruppo and are willing to pay the price but they also need low enough gearing which is not available in DA. From Shimano marketing point of view I find this strange because the margine of DA is much larger that of 105 or Ultegra.

Lou

I might comment that I have substituted various Shimano made cassettes
with various Shimano shifters and crank sets and even made up "custom"
cassettes using Shimano parts taken from other Shimano cassettes. To
data they have all shifted with no problems, assuming of course that
one doesn't try to mix numbers of sprockets, i.e. don't mix 7 speed
and 9 speed, for example.
--
Cheers,

John B.

So? Would it not be nice if you buy a DA gruppo you don't need to put a Ultegra RD on to shift a 11-32 Ultegra cassette?

Lou

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 23:14:12 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:43 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 01:32:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 10:19:31 AM UTC+1, Emanuel Berg wrote:
lou.holtman wrote:

The problem is the capacity of the DA RD.
Off course you can make it work mixing
groupset parts but that is not my point.
If you only want it to work buy 105 but then
you get also a heavy groupset with an
ugly finish.

Don't take this the wrong way but this sounds
like some hang-up. I mean, I have hang-ups
myself so I'm not judgemental. But especially
since you say you don't really feel any
difference except for maybe when not clean and
in a 20km 11% hill...? It sounds like bringing
so much stuff to K2 suddenly the caravan can't
continue because to feed all the porters, you
need even more porters?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

I don't know what you trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of people that like the incredible shifting performance, the low weight, the looks of DA gruppo and are willing to pay the price but they also need low enough gearing which is not available in DA. From Shimano marketing point of view I find this strange because the margine of DA is much larger that of 105 or Ultegra.

Lou

I might comment that I have substituted various Shimano made cassettes
with various Shimano shifters and crank sets and even made up "custom"
cassettes using Shimano parts taken from other Shimano cassettes. To
data they have all shifted with no problems, assuming of course that
one doesn't try to mix numbers of sprockets, i.e. don't mix 7 speed
and 9 speed, for example.
--
Cheers,

John B.

So? Would it not be nice if you buy a DA gruppo you don't need to put a Ultegra RD on to shift a 11-32 Ultegra cassette?

Lou

Well, given that I saw a DA group set for a paltry $1.800 I probably
shan't be experimenting with them very much. Two of my bikes still
have the original down tube friction shifters on them and I think I'll
wait until they wear out before investing in D.A. :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. wrote:

I might comment that I have substituted
various Shimano made cassettes with various
Shimano shifters and crank sets and even made
up "custom" cassettes using Shimano parts
taken from other Shimano cassettes. To data
they have all shifted with no problems,
assuming of course that one doesn't try to
mix numbers of sprockets, i.e. don't mix 7
speed and 9 speed, for example.

I have compiled some info on this, and
especially the 10S narrow casette with
"direction" (?), that seems to work with
105, Ultegra and DA.

Note: The table is probably very incomplete!

BTW except for "direction" which I don't
understand, what does the "CN-" prefix
mean? China?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
CASETTE [1] PIN LENGTH mm PRODUCT
----------------------------------------------------------------------
6 S 7.8 (5/16") KMC Basic 408: 1/2"x3/32" [2]
7 S 7.3 (9/32")
8 S 7.1 (9/32")
9 S 6.6-6.8 (1/4-9/32")
10 S 6.2 (1/4") Campagnolo, Shimano
10 S N 5.88 (7/32") Campa, KMC
10 S N D 5.88 (7/32") Sh. CN-5700, 6700, 7900 [3]
11 S 5.5 (7/32") Campa, KMC, Sh. CN-9000 [4]
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...icycle%20chain
[1] speed, narrow, direction
[2] (plate length) x (roller width)
[3] 105, Ultegra, Dura-Ace
[4] Dura-Ace 11S

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

I happened to be looking at a drawing of the skeletal structure of the
human shoulder and realized that the collarbone is basically a Horst
link.

On 2018-02-10 14:27, Tim McNamara wrote:
I happened to be looking at a drawing of the skeletal structure of the
human shoulder and realized that the collarbone is basically a Horst
link.


Is that why it breaks so often in bicycle crashes?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/