Cyclist killed on my route tonight

On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 12:47:51 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 10/09/14 09:21, Andre Jute wrote:

On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 7:44:04 AM UTC+1, Lou Holtman wrote:



There is a algorithm for that. In Europe the climbs are classified

according to that algorithm. Steepness and length are the

parameters of course. There will always be personal preferences and

thus discussion about the algorithm.



You don't need a great deal of psychology to see that a purely

algorithmic rating will not satisfy everyone. "Personal preferences"

is putting it mildly. The sprinter will prefer a hill that has a

steep slope but is short, the endurance rider will prefer a shallower

slope but doesn't mind if it is longer, yet those two hills will rate

the same in the algorithm if



slope a times length b = 1 = slope 0.5a times length 2b



But never mind the "personal preferences", who decides what the

preponderant class of hill on a ride, or in a race, will be, long

rollers or short steep inclines -- he is the man who decides the

outcome. So, algorithm or no algorithm, it's a political question.



The UCI recognise that such a simple rating system does not give the

full picture. They add an element of subjectivity based on whether the

climb in question is at the end of a stage or not, for example.



https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/2...zed-For-Rides-

The UCI way makes more sense to me than the Strava "pure algorithm" method. The UCI might turn out to be human after all.

Andre Jute
It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it.

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 9/9/2014 3:26 AM, Graham wrote:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote:
I've wondered if anyone has come up with a consistent, mathematical way to
rate the hilliness or climbing difficulty of bike rides. I'd like some
algorithm that one could, say, feed the route profile into, and get a one
or two number summary that others could use to gauge their future misery.

There are numerous sytems used for individual climbs including those used by the organisors of races such as the Tour de France. Most of which include some element of subjectivity. One system that is purely based on an algorithm can be found he

http://www.climbbybike.com/climb_difficulty.asp

As for the difficulty of an entire route including a mixed terrain I have not come across a purely analytical approach other than total miles plus total elevation gain with the significant climbs classified as above.

Graham.

I knew about the individual climb algorithm, although I didn't know the
details. My curiosity was more about rating an entire ride route.

It's a minor thing, really; but here's how my curiosity arose. My bike
club asks volunteer ride leaders to specify their planned rides'
distance, expected pace, and hilliness. Most rides are described as
"rolling terrain," sometimes adding "with a few hills." A very few
rides are described as "flat," and some are described as "hilly" or
"very hilly." But what should be the boundary between "rolling" and
"hilly" and "very hilly"?

Our riding territory spans the greatest advance of the last glaciers,
and we have members whose homes are separated by 50 miles or more, above
and below that line. Terrain is much, much flatter to the north, and
conceivably, one person's "hilly" could be another person's "flat." So
I wondered about an objective measurement.

In the machining world, metal surfaces can have their roughness measured
(electronically or otherwise) and characterized by a single RMS
roughness reading. It's not perfect, but it certainly gives more
information than "flat, rolling or hilly."

The simple answer for experienced cyclists is to give them a copy of the profile annotated with the significant grades so they can judge for themselves. To help less experienced riders all the profiles of the popular club rides should be readily available (e.g. club website) to the same scale so they can build up their own mental picture of what a ride is like and how they are likely to cope with it. All the good internet mapping sites will generate profiles for a given route.

Whenever I enter an event like a long hilly sportive which I have not ridden before I will study the profile carefully and I have even written some software that does a passable job of predicting my time and the energy I am likely to burn on the day. Hopefully having done that I will not be in for any unpleasant surprises and will have a good idea how to pace my effort across the day.

There is no substitute for experience and a picture they say is worth a thousand words!

Graham.

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On 9/10/2014 4:30 AM, Graham wrote:

The simple answer for experienced cyclists is to give them a copy of the profile annotated with the significant grades so they can judge for themselves. To help less experienced riders all the profiles of the popular club rides should be readily available (e.g. club website) to the same scale so they can build up their own mental picture of what a ride is like and how they are likely to cope with it. All the good internet mapping sites will generate profiles for a given route.

Whenever I enter an event like a long hilly sportive which I have not ridden before I will study the profile carefully and I have even written some software that does a passable job of predicting my time and the energy I am likely to burn on the day. Hopefully having done that I will not be in for any unpleasant surprises and will have a good idea how to pace my effort across the day.

There is no substitute for experience and a picture they say is worth a thousand words!

I don't think our club could save the profiles of many of our club
rides, because they tend to be different almost each time! Our club has
always been pretty informal and pleasantly inconsistent, with lots of
interesting variety in the rides. We have a few "classics" we do every
year, but we don't really have a standard library of rides.

Even the two regular weekly rides I try hardest to attend (one every
Tuesday, one every Thursday) have different routes from week to week,
with the Thursday one being especially variable. And the weekend rides
are usually whatever came into the volunteer ride leader's mind at the
moment he volunteered. Sometimes the ride is what came into his mind
that morning!

I agree that if we ever got really organized - which some members have
proposed - showing the route profiles online would be great.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski schreef op 10-9-2014 19:25:
On 9/10/2014 4:30 AM, Graham wrote:

The simple answer for experienced cyclists is to give them a copy of
the profile annotated with the significant grades so they can judge
for themselves. To help less experienced riders all the profiles of
the popular club rides should be readily available (e.g. club website)
to the same scale so they can build up their own mental picture of
what a ride is like and how they are likely to cope with it. All the
good internet mapping sites will generate profiles for a given route.

Whenever I enter an event like a long hilly sportive which I have not
ridden before I will study the profile carefully and I have even
written some software that does a passable job of predicting my time
and the energy I am likely to burn on the day. Hopefully having done
that I will not be in for any unpleasant surprises and will have a
good idea how to pace my effort across the day.

There is no substitute for experience and a picture they say is worth
a thousand words!

I don't think our club could save the profiles of many of our club
rides, because they tend to be different almost each time! Our club has
always been pretty informal and pleasantly inconsistent, with lots of
interesting variety in the rides. We have a few "classics" we do every
year, but we don't really have a standard library of rides.

Even the two regular weekly rides I try hardest to attend (one every
Tuesday, one every Thursday) have different routes from week to week,
with the Thursday one being especially variable. And the weekend rides
are usually whatever came into the volunteer ride leader's mind at the
moment he volunteered. Sometimes the ride is what came into his mind
that morning!

I agree that if we ever got really organized - which some members have
proposed - showing the route profiles online would be great.

What distances you ride on a clubride?

Lou

On 9/10/2014 1:37 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:


I don't think our club could save the profiles of many of our club
rides, because they tend to be different almost each time! Our club has
always been pretty informal and pleasantly inconsistent, with lots of
interesting variety in the rides. We have a few "classics" we do every
year, but we don't really have a standard library of rides.

Even the two regular weekly rides I try hardest to attend (one every
Tuesday, one every Thursday) have different routes from week to week,
with the Thursday one being especially variable. And the weekend rides
are usually whatever came into the volunteer ride leader's mind at the
moment he volunteered. Sometimes the ride is what came into his mind
that morning!

I agree that if we ever got really organized - which some members have
proposed - showing the route profiles online would be great.

What distances you ride on a clubride?

If the "you" is intended to be plural (i.e. the club) rides range from
probably 20 miles minimum to something like 140 miles maximum. My only
double century (200 miles) may have been the longest ride we'd had in
our calendar. (Many years ago, one guy put in a double century every
year, but AFAIK he almost always rode it solo.)

If the "you" is intended to be singular (i.e. only me) my riding pretty
much tops out at about 100 km or 62 miles these days. I'm getting old! :-/


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/10/2014 1:37 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski schreef op 10-9-2014 19:25:
snip

I agree that if we ever got really organized - which some members have
proposed - showing the route profiles online would be great.

What distances you ride on a clubride?



http://ridewithgps.com/
http://www.mapmyride.com/

Generate maps with their online tools or record them directly with their
online apps. Generate tcx files, maps, elevation profiles and turn by
turn. Our club posts them on our website for all formal rides.

On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:30:05 AM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...

On 9/9/2014 3:26 AM, Graham wrote:



"Frank Krygowski" wrote:

I've wondered if anyone has come up with a consistent, mathematical way to

rate the hilliness or climbing difficulty of bike rides. I'd like some

algorithm that one could, say, feed the route profile into, and get a one

or two number summary that others could use to gauge their future misery.



There are numerous sytems used for individual climbs including those used by the organisors of races such as the Tour de France. Most of which include some element of subjectivity. One system that is purely based on an algorithm can be found he



http://www.climbbybike.com/climb_difficulty.asp



As for the difficulty of an entire route including a mixed terrain I have not come across a purely analytical approach other than total miles plus total elevation gain with the significant climbs classified as above.



Graham.



I knew about the individual climb algorithm, although I didn't know the

details. My curiosity was more about rating an entire ride route.



It's a minor thing, really; but here's how my curiosity arose. My bike

club asks volunteer ride leaders to specify their planned rides'

distance, expected pace, and hilliness. Most rides are described as

"rolling terrain," sometimes adding "with a few hills." A very few

rides are described as "flat," and some are described as "hilly" or

"very hilly." But what should be the boundary between "rolling" and

"hilly" and "very hilly"?



Our riding territory spans the greatest advance of the last glaciers,

and we have members whose homes are separated by 50 miles or more, above

and below that line. Terrain is much, much flatter to the north, and

conceivably, one person's "hilly" could be another person's "flat." So

I wondered about an objective measurement.



In the machining world, metal surfaces can have their roughness measured

(electronically or otherwise) and characterized by a single RMS

roughness reading. It's not perfect, but it certainly gives more

information than "flat, rolling or hilly."



The simple answer for experienced cyclists is to give them a copy of the profile annotated with the significant grades so they can judge for themselves. To help less experienced riders all the profiles of the popular club rides should be readily available (e.g. club website) to the same scale so they can build up their own mental picture of what a ride is like and how they are likely to cope with it. All the good internet mapping sites will generate profiles for a given route.



Whenever I enter an event like a long hilly sportive which I have not ridden before I will study the profile carefully and I have even written some software that does a passable job of predicting my time and the energy I am likely to burn on the day. Hopefully having done that I will not be in for any unpleasant surprises and will have a good idea how to pace my effort across the day.



There is no substitute for experience and a picture they say is worth a thousand words!




In contrast, I roll out of bed, jump on my bike and chase whatever wheel looks good (usually the wheel of the guy(s) who called me the night before for a ride). If I were training seriously, I would get a Garmin and a power meter, map the course, watch my diet, etc., etc. But now, I just follow people around and make excuses when I get dropped.

I don't even use Strava, although I think I am KOM on some piece of dirt road in Yamhill County judging by the standing of my friend, who finished behind me -- and who does use Strava, Garmin and a multitude of apps and programs to judge his decrepitude. Really, it seems to me that all this data just depresses him.

Rambling story: I went to visit my brother and sister-in-law a few weeks ago. They're big cyclists, and I was told in advance that we would go on a ride. Well, I get there Friday night and am told that the ride is some giant century (with an equally giant entry fee) and that I have to be up at 5:00 am the next morning. So, I rolled out of bed the next morning and start a century with no idea of the course profile. At about mile 20, I jumped on the wheel of an older dude (but younger than me) from my brother's club who turned out to be a master's champ training for the LoToJa (200 mile killer USCF race). It was like getting motor paced for 80 miles. I came unglued in one spot but got back on. I ended up pulling maybe four or five times -- one time on a mile and a half low angle climb near the end when I was at the bottom of my reserve tank. I think this other guy just wanted to hang back and do on-line banking or answer e-mails on his iPhone as I crept over the hill. Nice guy and absolutely content with me doing 15-20% of the work. We chatted at the stops and a little on the bike, but it was basically business on the bike.

My only strategy on that ride was to watch my fluids and food intake, stay in the draft and allocate my energy through the mostly rolling hills based on assumptions as to their length -- which proved to be pretty accurate, because Cascade foothills in Washington are a lot like Cascade foothills in Oregon. It was a beautiful day, and there was a burrito wagon and beer tent at the end, which, for me, were were the most important features of the route.


-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/10/2014 2:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:

In contrast, I roll out of bed, jump on my bike and chase whatever wheel looks
good (usually the wheel of the guy(s) who called me the night before for
a ride).
If I were training seriously, I would get a Garmin and a power meter,
map the course, watch my diet, etc., etc. But now, I just follow people
around
and make excuses when I get dropped.

I don't even use Strava...

And it's amazing to me that not using Strava requires using the word
"even," as if that's a minimum requirement for considering oneself a
bicyclist!

My only strava-esque efforts happened back before I retired, riding home
from work. If I didn't get stopped by the few red lights, I'd try to
see how fast I could ride home. I did that for many, many years, and I
suppose it made me faster.

But most of my recreational (not utility) riding is just to explore the
countryside, and/or spend time with people I like. It's fun to, say,
have some town or some attraction as an objective; and being in decent
shape does allow more distant objectives, which is nice.

But I seem to have, um, matured (or aged) past the stage where
inflicting pain on myself seems like fun. I'm working on envisioning
myself as an old codger puttering along in tweed plus-fours and a flat
cap. Maybe I'll take up smoking a pipe.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/cycleczar/4150654995/


--
- Frank Krygowski

"Duane" wrote in message ...
On 9/10/2014 1:37 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski schreef op 10-9-2014 19:25:
snip

I agree that if we ever got really organized - which some members have
proposed - showing the route profiles online would be great.

What distances you ride on a clubride?



http://ridewithgps.com/
http://www.mapmyride.com/

Generate maps with their online tools or record them directly with their
online apps. Generate tcx files, maps, elevation profiles and turn by
turn. Our club posts them on our website for all formal rides.

+1

I also find these tools useful just to sit down and just draw a route on a map taking in places I have never been before. OK for some it might take out the excitement of getting lost by just setting off and seeing where they end up but I prefer to ride rather than keep stopping and taking out a map and trying to figure out where I am and where to go next. I accept this is part of the fun for some.

Also pace is only important in events. Normally I will ride with like minded souls or solo at whatever pace suits. Jumping on passing wheels if solo and having a chat and sharing the work helps make a ride.

Fortunately we have a settled high pressure region over the UK so it is bright blue sky and sunshine with temperatures in the mid to high teens(C) so its time for a 60-70miles ride out to and over the Malvern Hills before lunch and then the Tour of Britain on the TV. For this trip I do not need a Garmin or a map

Graham.

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plotting course spots new unseen routings along the main intent. INVALUABLE ! esp lined to info sources eg GooImages. if a location of interest is available, someone photed it then wrote an in depth essay.

Many times river road, the old old route, goes unnoticed or an off route trip along a ridge once mined. Topo USA FROM GARMIN

I began using this reference from watching weather develop while I try packing for it.

try the zoom box for your area


http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/mesowest/gmap.php?map=riw