Saddle sore solutions?

For your reference, records indicate that
Joerg wrote:

On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 3:36:49 PM UTC-7, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that Joerg
wrote:

On Friday I talked to a woman who rides very little because the
saddle causes her pain after a short time.

Everyone else seems to have keyed in on getting a saddle that fits
and/or adjusting it properly so that it works well as a contact
point. So here’s my take on the issue as I’ve seen it with my
non-rider friends:

A saddle is not a seat; it’s not there for plopping your fat ass on
it for a sit. If you want something to bear your weight, use your
pedals.


A Spanish road bike pro is said to complete whole races standing in the
pedals almost all the time. Most folks including myself can't do that or
find it highly uncomfortable.

The point isn’t to get anyone to stand for their entire ride. I can’t
even pretend I’d be able to do that. The point is to just get them to
think about *everything* that could be making bike riding less fun than
it could be. It might make a world of difference to go from putting
100% of your weight on your butt to 90% or 80% or whatever. Or, really,
just exercising the *option* to stand from time to time. Too many
people seem to think they’re just supposed to park their ass in the seat
and then put in the minimal amount of effort needed to make the pedals
go around. That’s certainly *a* way to ride a bike, but it is
unquestionably going to be a different experience from those who are
really pushing the bike to make it go faster.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 19:45:05 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

John B. Slocomb wrote:

But a 4 hour ride is not really a long ride.
I would imagine that most readers here have
done 4 hour rides. I used to do one every
Sunday morning.

Yes, I've done them as well. And that's when
you start to think more about your gear.
This isn't to say that the inventory saddles
still shouldn't do for most people, of course.

Why ever so? You get going about 06:00 and are home by ten. Hardly a
full day's activities.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 00:55:34 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:48:03 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On Friday I talked to a woman who rides very little because the saddle
causes her pain after a short time. Most likely this is a combination of
factors, the hardness of usual road bike saddles plus the fact that road
bikes have no suspension whatsoever and hard tires.

I had a different way of looking at the problem. I didn't expect to
ever find the perfect saddle. When my butt became sore, I simply
switched to a different saddle (or different saddle position), and the
sore spot moved to another part of my anatomy. I could vary the
degree of discomfort, move the location of discomfort, but never got
rid of it completely. When my pelvis fit my ancient Brooks something
saddle (about 40 years ago), I came closest to a painless saddle.
However, as I grew older, I no longer fit the Brooks saddle, and had
to retire it.

I have a small collection of saddles obtained from garage sales, flea
markets, thrift shops, bargain bins at the LBS, and mail order
specials. What I prefer these days is a Selle Royal Freeway Moderate
Men's Xsenium Brown ICS (whatever that means):
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Selle-Royal-Freeway-Moderate-Mens/dp/B002VGAWBI
which I picked up in a fit of retail therapy splurging. About $40 in
the LBS bargain bin about 10 years ago. I think I also liked the
brown color as I hoped it would be better than my other black saddles
and not scorch my butt after the bicycle had been in the sun for over
an hour.

I've never bothered to ask myself, what is different about this saddle
that is lacking in others? So, I measure the surface hardness with a
hardness gauge (durometer) like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/172240656843
However, there's a problem. For hard rubber, such as tires, the
penetrator is a Shore Type A. However, for softer material, such as
padded bicycle saddles, a Type OO penetrator is best as the Type A is
pointed and sharp enough to puncture the fake leather saddle.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yaoAAOSw2D1ZgXh8/s-l1600.jpg
I only have a Shore A penetrator, so I need to be very careful.

Saddle hardness measurements so far in the contact area for my pelvis;
Durometer Saddle
25 Selle Royal Freeway etc.
33 Vetta
35 Nashbar Velo
38 WTB Rocket
55 Selle Italia "Genuine Gel"
93 Brooks Ideale 90 (about 40 years old)
Swell. My two best saddles are the hardest and the softest, so I
can't determine if hard or soft is best. If the Brooks saddle at 93
durometer works, a saddle made from concrete, glass, or rock hard
rubber would work as well.

It's 1AM. Time to give up before I fall asleep at the keyboard.

I see bare plastic seats offered for sale here, and I do see them on
bikes so I'm not sure that the hardness of the seat surface is germane
to the problem. My Velo saddle for instance appears to have no
padding, or very little of it. Just the seat core with a layer of
vinyl over it.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On 30/07/18 09:55, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Saddle hardness measurements so far in the contact area for my pelvis;
Durometer Saddle
25 Selle Royal Freeway etc.
33 Vetta
35 Nashbar Velo
38 WTB Rocket
55 Selle Italia "Genuine Gel"
93 Brooks Ideale 90 (about 40 years old)
Swell. My two best saddles are the hardest and the softest, so I
can't determine if hard or soft is best. If the Brooks saddle at 93
durometer works, a saddle made from concrete, glass, or rock hard
rubber would work as well.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/real-man.html

On 2018-07-30 18:38, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 10:16:33 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

Genuine Selle Royale saddles used to be a lot more expensive than that ...

Yep, but I don't think that applies to discontinued low end products.
Plenty of other Selle Royale saddles on eBay at similar low prices:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=selle+royal+freeway
I did some digging and couldn't find any evidence of counterfeit Selle
saddles at low prices.

Regarding gel I wonder whether that could be a solution for this rider.
At least in TV ads they tout gel as a major benefit in insoles of shoes,
for people who develop pains there.

Inscribed in the sacred scrolls of Sheldon Brown:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html
A common buzzword in saddle construction is "gel", which is
often touted as a cure-all. The material known as "gel" is
a particular type of closed-cell foam, in which the air
bubbles are at higher than normal pressure. The fact that
a given saddle says "GEL" in big letters has no correlation
with how comfortable it is...it's basically hype.

So it was written, so it must be.


Hmm. Sheldon was usually right on cycling things.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-07-30 20:20, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
Joerg wrote:

On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 3:36:49 PM UTC-7, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that Joerg
wrote:

On Friday I talked to a woman who rides very little because the
saddle causes her pain after a short time.

Everyone else seems to have keyed in on getting a saddle that fits
and/or adjusting it properly so that it works well as a contact
point. So here’s my take on the issue as I’ve seen it with my
non-rider friends:

A saddle is not a seat; it’s not there for plopping your fat ass on
it for a sit. If you want something to bear your weight, use your
pedals.


A Spanish road bike pro is said to complete whole races standing in the
pedals almost all the time. Most folks including myself can't do that or
find it highly uncomfortable.

The point isn’t to get anyone to stand for their entire ride. I can’t
even pretend I’d be able to do that. The point is to just get them to
think about *everything* that could be making bike riding less fun than
it could be. It might make a world of difference to go from putting
100% of your weight on your butt to 90% or 80% or whatever. Or, really,
just exercising the *option* to stand from time to time. Too many
people seem to think they’re just supposed to park their ass in the seat
and then put in the minimal amount of effort needed to make the pedals
go around. That’s certainly *a* way to ride a bike, but it is
unquestionably going to be a different experience from those who are
really pushing the bike to make it go faster.


I mostly sit solidly in the saddle and I am not exactly a slowpoke.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 11:37:14 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:
I see bare plastic seats offered for sale here, and I do see them on
bikes so I'm not sure that the hardness of the seat surface is germane
to the problem. My Velo saddle for instance appears to have no
padding, or very little of it. Just the seat core with a layer of
vinyl over it.

If a hard thin saddle works, then it would be easy enough to vacuum
form a bicycle saddle. Almost any thermoplastic plastic can be used.
I guess ABS and acrylic would be the cheapest. Just make a butt mold,
drill full of holes for the vacuum lines, apply plastic sheet, heat
until soft, suck the plastic over the butt mold with a vacuum, trim
off the excess, deburr, and add a metal frame. Adding a vinyl cover
would reduce surface friction and make it easier to include
advertising content.

If you have access to a tracer mill:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f20/17699d1260010155-2-headed-tracer-mill-005.jpg
you can duplicate your favorite saddle in aluminum, plastic,
fiberglass, etc. Add hardware and you have a potential candidate for
a hard bicycle saddle.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 12:37:17 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 00:55:34 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:48:03 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On Friday I talked to a woman who rides very little because the saddle
causes her pain after a short time. Most likely this is a combination of
factors, the hardness of usual road bike saddles plus the fact that road
bikes have no suspension whatsoever and hard tires.

I had a different way of looking at the problem. I didn't expect to
ever find the perfect saddle. When my butt became sore, I simply
switched to a different saddle (or different saddle position), and the
sore spot moved to another part of my anatomy. I could vary the
degree of discomfort, move the location of discomfort, but never got
rid of it completely. When my pelvis fit my ancient Brooks something
saddle (about 40 years ago), I came closest to a painless saddle.
However, as I grew older, I no longer fit the Brooks saddle, and had
to retire it.

I have a small collection of saddles obtained from garage sales, flea
markets, thrift shops, bargain bins at the LBS, and mail order
specials. What I prefer these days is a Selle Royal Freeway Moderate
Men's Xsenium Brown ICS (whatever that means):
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Selle-Royal-Freeway-Moderate-Mens/dp/B002VGAWBI
which I picked up in a fit of retail therapy splurging. About $40 in
the LBS bargain bin about 10 years ago. I think I also liked the
brown color as I hoped it would be better than my other black saddles
and not scorch my butt after the bicycle had been in the sun for over
an hour.

I've never bothered to ask myself, what is different about this saddle
that is lacking in others? So, I measure the surface hardness with a
hardness gauge (durometer) like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/172240656843
However, there's a problem. For hard rubber, such as tires, the
penetrator is a Shore Type A. However, for softer material, such as
padded bicycle saddles, a Type OO penetrator is best as the Type A is
pointed and sharp enough to puncture the fake leather saddle.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yaoAAOSw2D1ZgXh8/s-l1600.jpg
I only have a Shore A penetrator, so I need to be very careful.

Saddle hardness measurements so far in the contact area for my pelvis;
Durometer Saddle
25 Selle Royal Freeway etc.
33 Vetta
35 Nashbar Velo
38 WTB Rocket
55 Selle Italia "Genuine Gel"
93 Brooks Ideale 90 (about 40 years old)
Swell. My two best saddles are the hardest and the softest, so I
can't determine if hard or soft is best. If the Brooks saddle at 93
durometer works, a saddle made from concrete, glass, or rock hard
rubber would work as well.

It's 1AM. Time to give up before I fall asleep at the keyboard.

I see bare plastic seats offered for sale here, and I do see them on
bikes so I'm not sure that the hardness of the seat surface is germane
to the problem. My Velo saddle for instance appears to have no
padding, or very little of it. Just the seat core with a layer of
vinyl over it.

I think it varies a LOT depending on the person. Lightweight folks can get by
with very little padding, etc. because they put so little pressure on the seat.
Yesterday we rode with a great big guy. He used a saddle with coil springs and
padding. (He also used what looked like 40mm tires.)

- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 08:14:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 11:37:14 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:
I see bare plastic seats offered for sale here, and I do see them on
bikes so I'm not sure that the hardness of the seat surface is germane
to the problem. My Velo saddle for instance appears to have no
padding, or very little of it. Just the seat core with a layer of
vinyl over it.

If a hard thin saddle works, then it would be easy enough to vacuum
form a bicycle saddle. Almost any thermoplastic plastic can be used.
I guess ABS and acrylic would be the cheapest. Just make a butt mold,
drill full of holes for the vacuum lines, apply plastic sheet, heat
until soft, suck the plastic over the butt mold with a vacuum, trim
off the excess, deburr, and add a metal frame. Adding a vinyl cover
would reduce surface friction and make it easier to include
advertising content.

If you have access to a tracer mill:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f20/17699d1260010155-2-headed-tracer-mill-005.jpg
you can duplicate your favorite saddle in aluminum, plastic,
fiberglass, etc. Add hardware and you have a potential candidate for
a hard bicycle saddle.

My assumption is that IS how a great many bicycle seats, whether
padded or not, are manufactured.

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-7/Bicycle-Seat.html


Note that the larger part of the secret is to make the seats in China
:-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 11:14:58 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

If a hard thin saddle works, then it would be easy enough to vacuum
form a bicycle saddle. Almost any thermoplastic plastic can be used.
I guess ABS and acrylic would be the cheapest. Just make a butt mold,
drill full of holes for the vacuum lines, apply plastic sheet, heat
until soft, suck the plastic over the butt mold with a vacuum, trim
off the excess, deburr, and add a metal frame. Adding a vinyl cover
would reduce surface friction and make it easier to include
advertising content.

If you have access to a tracer mill:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f20/17699d1260010155-2-headed-tracer-mill-005.jpg
you can duplicate your favorite saddle in aluminum, plastic,
fiberglass, etc. Add hardware and you have a potential candidate for
a hard bicycle saddle.

Back in my poverty days, I took a cheap hard plastic saddle, drilled a bunch of
holes through it where I wanted softer contact points, built up some Silicon
Seal lumps at those spots for a bit more cushioning, and covered it with
leather. I rode that saddle for many years. It worked well for all but really
long rides.

- Frank Krygowski