Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?

I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:49:46 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
wrote:

I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska


There have been studies made of professional cyclists pedaling
technique and, if I remember correctly, the majority pressed down and
than pulled their foot back so that force applied to the pedal was a
sort of reversed "L" pattern. If this is correct then yes cleats or
toe straps would increase the period of time that force was applied to
the pedal.
https://www.bicycling.com/training/a...ing-mechanics/

For my own use I like clips as they tend to keep my feet on the pedals
:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/08/2020 03:49, bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

Never thought of it, I like them because the feel solid and stop my feet
moving about. As you say, they feel more efficient. Maybe the pros are
a victim of marketing as well.

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 3:49:48 AM UTC+2, bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

The question is what is the power loss of flat pedals considering that you feet are positioned correctly? Being able to pull up with clipless doesn't per se mean it is more efficient.

Lou

bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska




There is huge difference in flats, from cheap plastic things, to proper MTB
things and proper flat shoes.

Ie decent flats feel planted, you generally have to lift up to adjust your
shoe.

I’d be surprised if bar a few exceptions (such as sprinting of the line on
a track bike) if there was any measurable difference.

Roger Merriman

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 7:55:58 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska



There is huge difference in flats, from cheap plastic things, to proper MTB
things and proper flat shoes.

Ie decent flats feel planted, you generally have to lift up to adjust your
shoe.

I’d be surprised if bar a few exceptions (such as sprinting of the line on
a track bike) if there was any measurable difference.

Roger Merriman
I have absolutely no idea where this is coming from. Firstly, to stay on a flat pedal, you have to have soft soled shoes and they are not even close to being as efficient as carbon soled shoes. Anyone that has climbed steep climbs would know that you CANNOT do so without pedaling circles - they do this in MTB's by going into a tiny gear so that they can spin faster and not remain in the dead zone very long. But this is slower. This is why I used to fly by MTB's on my CX bikes. Not just because they were lighter but because they were forced into a smaller gear when using flat pedals. Most of these guys are using flat pedals because it is easier to bail off of the bike and not because it doesn't make any difference in the efficiency of pedaling.

Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 7:55:58 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska



There is huge difference in flats, from cheap plastic things, to proper MTB
things and proper flat shoes.

Ie decent flats feel planted, you generally have to lift up to adjust your
shoe.

I’d be surprised if bar a few exceptions (such as sprinting of the line on
a track bike) if there was any measurable difference.

Roger Merriman
I have absolutely no idea where this is coming from. Firstly, to stay on
a flat pedal, you have to have soft soled shoes and they are not even
close to being as efficient as carbon soled shoes. Anyone that has
climbed steep climbs would know that you CANNOT do so without pedaling
circles - they do this in MTB's by going into a tiny gear so that they
can spin faster and not remain in the dead zone very long. But this is
slower. This is why I used to fly by MTB's on my CX bikes. Not just
because they were lighter but because they were forced into a smaller
gear when using flat pedals. Most of these guys are using flat pedals
because it is easier to bail off of the bike and not because it doesn't
make any difference in the efficiency of pedaling.

You can ride with hard soled shoes loads of commuters do, generally at low
cadence admittedly, but they do.

Equally if you want to you can spin with flats, I generally favour lower
cadence though only mildly.

It is more than being able to bail/put for foot down. Good flat pedal/shoes
have feel you can move and feel the bike.

Most if not all of the research on this is poor to useless, folks tend to
have a favourite system and used to that, and unsurprisingly are better
using such a system.

This said the last I read the science behind folks pull up is fairly
debunked, folks like a prefer the system, for data I come from a Gorge no
problems with flats on 17% average hills with peaks into the 30% or so as
I’m used to flats.

Roger Merriman

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 2:11:05 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 3:49:48 AM UTC+2, bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

The question is what is the power loss of flat pedals considering that you feet are positioned correctly? Being able to pull up with clipless doesn't per se mean it is more efficient.

And efficiency isn't necessarily the same thing as power or speed,
especially at less than maximum effort. For non-maximum power, lower
efficiency may mean only that you'll want more snacks to replace more
calories.

I think the benefits of foot retention occur when sprinting at max
effort, and perhaps when grinding up a climb at max effort - the only
time I think it makes sense to consciously pull up in back. It's
perhaps helpful on super-bumpy surfaces, to keep feet from slipping
off pedals.

But people used to claim huge power improvement when they moved from
flat pedals to toe clips. People again claimed huge power improvements
when they went from toe clips to clipless. I do think those claims
are mistaken.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 7:47:10 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 2:11:05 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 3:49:48 AM UTC+2, bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

The question is what is the power loss of flat pedals considering that you feet are positioned correctly? Being able to pull up with clipless doesn't per se mean it is more efficient.

And efficiency isn't necessarily the same thing as power or speed,
especially at less than maximum effort. For non-maximum power, lower
efficiency may mean only that you'll want more snacks to replace more
calories.

I think the benefits of foot retention occur when sprinting at max
effort, and perhaps when grinding up a climb at max effort - the only
time I think it makes sense to consciously pull up in back. It's
perhaps helpful on super-bumpy surfaces, to keep feet from slipping
off pedals.

But people used to claim huge power improvement when they moved from
flat pedals to toe clips. People again claimed huge power improvements
when they went from toe clips to clipless. I do think those claims
are mistaken.

- Frank Krygowski

Efficiency is the ratio of what get out and what you put in, simple. What you pull on the during the up stroke you putting something in and here are claims that this is not efficient. Clipless pedals are intended as a safety benefit over toe clips and to get rid of dead toes (me), Toe clips have safety benefits over platform pedals. You can't slip of your pedals. I was a very early adaptor of clipless pedals and never ever looked back. I don't claim any efficiency benefits, but I like that my feet are always in the same position, my feet don't slip of the pedals and of course it got rid of my dead toes. That's it. All those efficiency claims come from people that don't understand efficiency hence my first question: what makes flat pedals less efficient?



Lou

On 2020-08-10 18:49, bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?


There is something to it. When applying force also in the pulling-up
phase you are using muscles in your legs that you wouldn't be able to
use with regular flat pedals.

However, my limit aren't the leg muscles, I simply run out of breath on
a long steep climb or when "flooring it" on a bike path that has no
speed limit. Long story short I used to ride with loop pedals which
offer the same "pulling up" advantage as SPD and similar. When I
switched to MTB flat pedals I found no difference in my performance when
it comes to average speed.

As for slipping off the pedals I never found that to be an issue. I have
to use them because I ride with sandals most of the year. So I did
something that makes purists cringe, I mounted MTB pedals on my road
bike. It's the lower cost plastic kind because those allowed me to cut
and then round the spikes to about half their length. This reduces the
wear on bottoms of shoes and also the gashes in case I crash hard.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/