Square taper BB questions

Got a knackered Shimano 600 BB, this kind:

D-3L 68 = W = 116

It is 116mm long in the spindle and symmetrical. The usual left-hand
thread on the drive side. Last time I changed it out was in the 90's and
the bike wasn't ridden until recently. Now you can't get these anymore.
So I looked around and found UN55. Only 115mm long but that shouldn't
matter. However, I also found that there are two kinds of square taper,
JIS and ISO. I have Shimano 600EX cranks from 1982. Are those compatible
with UN55 in the taper? IOW can UN55 be used to replace old Shimano
600EX BBs?

If tapers are mixed that can mess up the chain line:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

There is also the UN26 but that has a plastic cap and some people wrote
that the wrench insert for BB cups won't fit in the plasstic pat so I am
not sure I could tighten that with my tool set.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-05-25 15:29, Joerg wrote:
Got a knackered Shimano 600 BB, this kind:

D-3L 68 = W = 116


Forgot to mention: 1.37-24T, no BB number or anything stamped in.


It is 116mm long in the spindle and symmetrical. The usual left-hand
thread on the drive side. Last time I changed it out was in the 90's and
the bike wasn't ridden until recently. Now you can't get these anymore.
So I looked around and found UN55. Only 115mm long but that shouldn't
matter. However, I also found that there are two kinds of square taper,
JIS and ISO. I have Shimano 600EX cranks from 1982. Are those compatible
with UN55 in the taper? IOW can UN55 be used to replace old Shimano
600EX BBs?

If tapers are mixed that can mess up the chain line:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

There is also the UN26 but that has a plastic cap and some people wrote
that the wrench insert for BB cups won't fit in the plasstic pat so I am
not sure I could tighten that with my tool set.



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-05-25 15:53, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-05-25 15:29, Joerg wrote:
Got a knackered Shimano 600 BB, this kind:

D-3L 68 = W = 116


Forgot to mention: 1.37-24T, no BB number or anything stamped in.


It is 116mm long in the spindle and symmetrical. The usual left-hand
thread on the drive side. Last time I changed it out was in the 90's and
the bike wasn't ridden until recently. Now you can't get these anymore.
So I looked around and found UN55. Only 115mm long but that shouldn't
matter. However, I also found that there are two kinds of square taper,
JIS and ISO. I have Shimano 600EX cranks from 1982. Are those compatible
with UN55 in the taper? IOW can UN55 be used to replace old Shimano
600EX BBs?

If tapers are mixed that can mess up the chain line:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

There is also the UN26 but that has a plastic cap and some people wrote
that the wrench insert for BB cups won't fit in the plasstic pat so I am
not sure I could tighten that with my tool set.


Gets even more confusing. Sheldon says, quote, "Conversely, if you
install a J.I.S. crank on an ISO spindle, it will wind up about 4.5 mm
farther in than it would on a J.I.S spindle of the same length":

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

That would mean I'd have to try to find an ISO BB with a spindle about
9mm longer because this goes for eithr side.

These guys say, quote, "If you install a JIS Chainset on an ISO Bottom
Bracket increase your Bottom Bracket width by around 4mm, for example
purchase a 110mm BB instead of a 107mm to give you the correct chainline":

http://www.velodromeshop.net/square-taper-jis/iso/

Only 3mm total or 1.5mm on either side. 4.5mm and 1.5mm is a huge
difference for a chain line.

So what is correct? Or assume the middle, about 3mm each side for 6mm
more spindle length and call it a day?

I am pretty sure my FS-6207 cranks are JIS. UN55 is often poorly spec'd
in the ads. Some say ISO, some say JIS. On the photos that allow
close-ups it looks like ISO.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 5/25/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
Got a knackered Shimano 600 BB, this kind:

D-3L 68 = W = 116

It is 116mm long in the spindle and symmetrical. The usual
left-hand thread on the drive side. Last time I changed it
out was in the 90's and the bike wasn't ridden until
recently. Now you can't get these anymore. So I looked
around and found UN55. Only 115mm long but that shouldn't
matter. However, I also found that there are two kinds of
square taper, JIS and ISO. I have Shimano 600EX cranks from
1982. Are those compatible with UN55 in the taper? IOW can
UN55 be used to replace old Shimano 600EX BBs?

If tapers are mixed that can mess up the chain line:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

There is also the UN26 but that has a plastic cap and some
people wrote that the wrench insert for BB cups won't fit in
the plasstic pat so I am not sure I could tighten that with
my tool set.


D-3L are available.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/bbopt.html

Taper is the same. The sections of that taper are different.
Your 1992 600 uses the revisionist smaller section (middle
here):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG

So yes, a 115mm sealed unit, maybe with a spacer under the
right cup lip, would fit well.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2017-05-25 18:29, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/25/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
Got a knackered Shimano 600 BB, this kind:

D-3L 68 = W = 116

It is 116mm long in the spindle and symmetrical. The usual
left-hand thread on the drive side. Last time I changed it
out was in the 90's and the bike wasn't ridden until
recently. Now you can't get these anymore. So I looked
around and found UN55. Only 115mm long but that shouldn't
matter. However, I also found that there are two kinds of
square taper, JIS and ISO. I have Shimano 600EX cranks from
1982. Are those compatible with UN55 in the taper? IOW can
UN55 be used to replace old Shimano 600EX BBs?

If tapers are mixed that can mess up the chain line:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

There is also the UN26 but that has a plastic cap and some
people wrote that the wrench insert for BB cups won't fit in
the plasstic pat so I am not sure I could tighten that with
my tool set.


D-3L are available.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/bbopt.html


Thanks, Andrew, and your price is very good. However, I am quite tired
of these adjustable kinds because they don't last long. The BB I just
took out was the worst ever after less than 10k miles. I guess the hills
here are more demanding that then ones where I rode before (Eastern
Belgium and the ones east of Cologne in Germany).


Taper is the same. The sections of that taper are different.
Your 1992 600 uses the revisionist smaller section (middle here):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG


Interesting, thanks. So the UN55 is JIS compliant in the taper?

My cranks are FS-6207.


So yes, a 115mm sealed unit, maybe with a spacer under the right cup
lip, would fit well.


Why a spacer under the right cup? Won't both cups go in all the way
regardless of spindle length? The BB tube measures 2.665" or 67.7mm long.

If I needed a spacer I'd have to make one. Or ask my MTB buddy to do
that, he is a machinist.

When I looked up the torque specs again for mounting this stuff I was
surprised that they are in the 40Nm range or 35 inch-pounds. That's a lot.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-05-26 07:24, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-05-25 18:29, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/25/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
Got a knackered Shimano 600 BB, this kind:

D-3L 68 = W = 116

It is 116mm long in the spindle and symmetrical. The usual
left-hand thread on the drive side. Last time I changed it
out was in the 90's and the bike wasn't ridden until
recently. Now you can't get these anymore. So I looked
around and found UN55. Only 115mm long but that shouldn't
matter. However, I also found that there are two kinds of
square taper, JIS and ISO. I have Shimano 600EX cranks from
1982. Are those compatible with UN55 in the taper? IOW can
UN55 be used to replace old Shimano 600EX BBs?

If tapers are mixed that can mess up the chain line:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

There is also the UN26 but that has a plastic cap and some
people wrote that the wrench insert for BB cups won't fit in
the plasstic pat so I am not sure I could tighten that with
my tool set.


D-3L are available.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/bbopt.html


Thanks, Andrew, and your price is very good. However, I am quite tired
of these adjustable kinds because they don't last long. The BB I just
took out was the worst ever after less than 10k miles. I guess the hills
here are more demanding that then ones where I rode before (Eastern
Belgium and the ones east of Cologne in Germany).


Taper is the same. The sections of that taper are different.
Your 1992 600 uses the revisionist smaller section (middle here):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG


Interesting, thanks. So the UN55 is JIS compliant in the taper?

My cranks are FS-6207.


So yes, a 115mm sealed unit, maybe with a spacer under the right cup
lip, would fit well.


Why a spacer under the right cup? Won't both cups go in all the way
regardless of spindle length? The BB tube measures 2.665" or 67.7mm long.

If I needed a spacer I'd have to make one. Or ask my MTB buddy to do
that, he is a machinist.

When I looked up the torque specs again for mounting this stuff I was
surprised that they are in the 40Nm range or 35 inch-pounds. That's a lot.


I meant 350 inch-pounds.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-05-25 18:29, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/25/2017 5:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
Got a knackered Shimano 600 BB, this kind:

D-3L 68 = W = 116

It is 116mm long in the spindle and symmetrical. The usual
left-hand thread on the drive side. Last time I changed it
out was in the 90's and the bike wasn't ridden until
recently. Now you can't get these anymore. So I looked
around and found UN55. Only 115mm long but that shouldn't
matter. However, I also found that there are two kinds of
square taper, JIS and ISO. I have Shimano 600EX cranks from
1982. Are those compatible with UN55 in the taper? IOW can
UN55 be used to replace old Shimano 600EX BBs?

If tapers are mixed that can mess up the chain line:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

There is also the UN26 but that has a plastic cap and some
people wrote that the wrench insert for BB cups won't fit in
the plasstic pat so I am not sure I could tighten that with
my tool set.


D-3L are available.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/bbopt.html

Taper is the same. The sections of that taper are different.
Your 1992 600 uses the revisionist smaller section (middle here):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG

So yes, a 115mm sealed unit, maybe with a spacer under the right cup
lip, would fit well.


Should arrive on June-3, I'll report back how it fits.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-05-25 15:29, Joerg wrote:
Got a knackered Shimano 600 BB, this kind:

D-3L 68 = W = 116

It is 116mm long in the spindle and symmetrical. The usual left-hand
thread on the drive side. Last time I changed it out was in the 90's and
the bike wasn't ridden until recently. Now you can't get these anymore.
So I looked around and found UN55. Only 115mm long but that shouldn't
matter. However, I also found that there are two kinds of square taper,
JIS and ISO. I have Shimano 600EX cranks from 1982. Are those compatible
with UN55 in the taper? IOW can UN55 be used to replace old Shimano
600EX BBs?

If tapers are mixed that can mess up the chain line:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

There is also the UN26 but that has a plastic cap and some people wrote
that the wrench insert for BB cups won't fit in the plasstic pat so I am
not sure I could tighten that with my tool set.


Some feedback: UN55 is JIS, it all fit well, no spacer needed. Did a
20mi test round yesterday, with brew pub visit, of course.

What I did not like about the UN55 are that the included screws (must
use, because shorter) have the washers welded to the heads and thus they
scrape on the aluminum of the cranks when tightening. So I greased that
up. Then the non-drive side cup is aluminum which doesn't instill high
confidence. Ok, better than plastic, I assume. Let's see how long that
will last.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 7:17:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-05-25 15:29, Joerg wrote:
Got a knackered Shimano 600 BB, this kind:

D-3L 68 = W = 116

It is 116mm long in the spindle and symmetrical. The usual left-hand
thread on the drive side. Last time I changed it out was in the 90's and
the bike wasn't ridden until recently. Now you can't get these anymore.
So I looked around and found UN55. Only 115mm long but that shouldn't
matter. However, I also found that there are two kinds of square taper,
JIS and ISO. I have Shimano 600EX cranks from 1982. Are those compatible
with UN55 in the taper? IOW can UN55 be used to replace old Shimano
600EX BBs?

If tapers are mixed that can mess up the chain line:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

There is also the UN26 but that has a plastic cap and some people wrote
that the wrench insert for BB cups won't fit in the plasstic pat so I am
not sure I could tighten that with my tool set.


Some feedback: UN55 is JIS, it all fit well, no spacer needed. Did a
20mi test round yesterday, with brew pub visit, of course.

What I did not like about the UN55 are that the included screws (must
use, because shorter) have the washers welded to the heads and thus they
scrape on the aluminum of the cranks when tightening. So I greased that
up. Then the non-drive side cup is aluminum which doesn't instill high
confidence. Ok, better than plastic, I assume. Let's see how long that
will last.

In my experience I haven't had any problems. Though I'm going to have to look at my triple pretty quick to see what the sound is coming when I crank. But this is Campagnolo and they didn't seem to have any problems with plastic non-drive side.

On 2017-06-05 14:31, wrote:
On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 7:17:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-05-25 15:29, Joerg wrote:
Got a knackered Shimano 600 BB, this kind:

D-3L 68 = W = 116

It is 116mm long in the spindle and symmetrical. The usual
left-hand thread on the drive side. Last time I changed it out
was in the 90's and the bike wasn't ridden until recently. Now
you can't get these anymore. So I looked around and found UN55.
Only 115mm long but that shouldn't matter. However, I also found
that there are two kinds of square taper, JIS and ISO. I have
Shimano 600EX cranks from 1982. Are those compatible with UN55 in
the taper? IOW can UN55 be used to replace old Shimano 600EX
BBs?

If tapers are mixed that can mess up the chain line:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

There is also the UN26 but that has a plastic cap and some people
wrote that the wrench insert for BB cups won't fit in the
plasstic pat so I am not sure I could tighten that with my tool
set.


Some feedback: UN55 is JIS, it all fit well, no spacer needed. Did
a 20mi test round yesterday, with brew pub visit, of course.

What I did not like about the UN55 are that the included screws
(must use, because shorter) have the washers welded to the heads
and thus they scrape on the aluminum of the cranks when tightening.
So I greased that up. Then the non-drive side cup is aluminum which
doesn't instill high confidence. Ok, better than plastic, I assume.
Let's see how long that will last.

In my experience I haven't had any problems. Though I'm going to have
to look at my triple pretty quick to see what the sound is coming
when I crank. But this is Campagnolo and they didn't seem to have any
problems with plastic non-drive side.


Do that. I should have taken a look much earlier but kept on riding
another 1000mi with noises. When I took it apart the drive side cup and
CrMo spindle surface looked terrible. Totally shot. I remember a time in
Belgium when I kept on riding despite horrid metal-screeching noises
from down there. Another hill came, standing in the pedals .. ka-crunch
... the right side suddenly dropped 1/4" or so and the ride was over. In
the middle of nowhere, per Murphy's Law.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/