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  #11  
Old July 24th 18, 12:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default question about climbing

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 4:06:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 5:33:17 AM UTC-5, Duane wrote:
James wrote:
On 23/07/18 17:30, wrote:


Agreed. It was of course a joke that you are not allowed to stop
during a climb. I don't but that is just me. This years I start using
a power meter and figured out I can sustain 220 Watts. Knowing this
helps a lot on longer climbs (2 hours and more).

Regarding Tom Dumoulin, in a interview on Dutch television last night
he was asked how his shape was compared to the Giro. He said it is
better. Why? I lost some weight he said: 1 kg. Like I said climbing
is all about Watts/kg, so lose as much weight as you can: on your
bike and on yourself. Don't carry a gallon of water if you don't
gonna use it or tools you don't gonna need.


If someone breaks a chain, scavenge a rock and a rusty nail, but don't
carry a multitool that has a chain tool built in.


I’d leave the growler at home and probably the rope and music setup as
well.

--
duane


YEs this make sense so now I see that just don't redline. Have to try this next time in encounter the climbs I have in the past. I just have always been able to see the finish or know it to redline just right. 8% for 8 miles that requires pacing skills. Like a Marathon and I have done many of them....…….going out fast is disaster more most mortals.


One of the fastest guys I ever rode with was a former marathoner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Engleman Climbing with Mike made me feel pretty feeble, even before he was a pro, and I was in race shape. If you run marathons, you'll be fine. You might even be some climbing freak.

-- Jay Beattie.

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  #12  
Old July 25th 18, 07:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 49
Default question about climbing

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 6:58:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 4:06:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 5:33:17 AM UTC-5, Duane wrote:
James wrote:
On 23/07/18 17:30, wrote:


Agreed. It was of course a joke that you are not allowed to stop
during a climb. I don't but that is just me. This years I start using
a power meter and figured out I can sustain 220 Watts. Knowing this
helps a lot on longer climbs (2 hours and more).

Regarding Tom Dumoulin, in a interview on Dutch television last night
he was asked how his shape was compared to the Giro. He said it is
better. Why? I lost some weight he said: 1 kg. Like I said climbing
is all about Watts/kg, so lose as much weight as you can: on your
bike and on yourself. Don't carry a gallon of water if you don't
gonna use it or tools you don't gonna need.


If someone breaks a chain, scavenge a rock and a rusty nail, but don't
carry a multitool that has a chain tool built in.


I’d leave the growler at home and probably the rope and music setup as
well.

--
duane


YEs this make sense so now I see that just don't redline. Have to try this next time in encounter the climbs I have in the past. I just have always been able to see the finish or know it to redline just right. 8% for 8 miles that requires pacing skills. Like a Marathon and I have done many of them...…….going out fast is disaster more most mortals.


One of the fastest guys I ever rode with was a former marathoner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Engleman Climbing with Mike made me feel pretty feeble, even before he was a pro, and I was in race shape. If you run marathons, you'll be fine. You might even be some climbing freak.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay,

My last marathon was about 20 years ago and I was ok with the time. I managed about 12 in total never finishing slower than 3:28. I could still manage to complete a marathon but I am pretty sure it would take me a hour longer for sure.


Not sure pure running takes much on cycling except for having the endurance.. I am sure if I did a lot of climbing and trained that way climbing would not bother me but... I am a pure diesel engine. Put me on a fairly flat even rolling course and I can go for a long time. I manage many times to do a century and never even unclip. I can go a long time without any real food just liquid. Maybe I would be a decent climber but it sure looks mentally very difficult. I just see climbs and my mind says...…….wow my speed is going to suffer.


Mark
  #13  
Old July 25th 18, 09:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default question about climbing

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 11:24:42 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 6:58:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 4:06:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 5:33:17 AM UTC-5, Duane wrote:
James wrote:
On 23/07/18 17:30, wrote:


Agreed. It was of course a joke that you are not allowed to stop
during a climb. I don't but that is just me. This years I start using
a power meter and figured out I can sustain 220 Watts. Knowing this
helps a lot on longer climbs (2 hours and more).

Regarding Tom Dumoulin, in a interview on Dutch television last night
he was asked how his shape was compared to the Giro. He said it is
better. Why? I lost some weight he said: 1 kg. Like I said climbing
is all about Watts/kg, so lose as much weight as you can: on your
bike and on yourself. Don't carry a gallon of water if you don't
gonna use it or tools you don't gonna need.


If someone breaks a chain, scavenge a rock and a rusty nail, but don't
carry a multitool that has a chain tool built in.


I’d leave the growler at home and probably the rope and music setup as
well.

--
duane

YEs this make sense so now I see that just don't redline. Have to try this next time in encounter the climbs I have in the past. I just have always been able to see the finish or know it to redline just right. 8% for 8 miles that requires pacing skills. Like a Marathon and I have done many of them...…….going out fast is disaster more most mortals.


One of the fastest guys I ever rode with was a former marathoner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Engleman Climbing with Mike made me feel pretty feeble, even before he was a pro, and I was in race shape. If you run marathons, you'll be fine. You might even be some climbing freak.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay,

My last marathon was about 20 years ago and I was ok with the time. I managed about 12 in total never finishing slower than 3:28. I could still manage to complete a marathon but I am pretty sure it would take me a hour longer for sure.


Not sure pure running takes much on cycling except for having the endurance. I am sure if I did a lot of climbing and trained that way climbing would not bother me but... I am a pure diesel engine. Put me on a fairly flat even rolling course and I can go for a long time. I manage many times to do a century and never even unclip. I can go a long time without any real food just liquid. Maybe I would be a decent climber but it sure looks mentally very difficult. I just see climbs and my mind says...…….wow my speed is going to suffer.


Meh, let your speed suffer. Avoid the desire to be high torque diesel and spin lower gears. You may find that you really like climbing. A lot of people like being in the zone and motoring up a hill. I don't mind climbing unless I have to match someone else's speed or its one of those soul sucking ascents with long open stretches -- which is about as fun as riding in a constant headwind. I prefer tighter climbs where you can concentrate on the next corner, pretty scenery, sounds of nature, etc. I've never been one for ear-buds, and IMO, a Joerg-special MP3 player with speakers is sacrilege.

Besides just turning the cranks, you also have to think about heat and altitude if you're going to ride up a big mountain. Think twice before jumping off a plane and heading up a climb that starts high and ends higher. If you really over-do it, you can get altitude sickness, which is like bad car sickness and no fun. You also have to drink more at altitude because you lose more moisture through respiration. Taking a day or two to acclimate is always a good thing.

-- Jay Beattie.




  #14  
Old July 25th 18, 11:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,261
Default question about climbing

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 11:33:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I live in the flatlands and not a great climber but pretty solid rider. I have done some climbs according to various categories that are 3 and 4 rated. I got them ok on a 34-28 but not just easy. So I see the Alpe D'Huez and the rating plus going up 8 % for over 8 miles seems a bit much for me to comprehend.

Do most mortals who do the Alpe D"Huez go up without stopping during the climb? One climb I do is overall about 6% and it goes on for 1.2 miles. The very last section gets to 9% or about maybe 1/4 mile. I tell you I can get up no problem but I just cannot see keep that up for another 7 miles. I am pretty spent the last 200 feet.

So I assume those climbing these on tours and such are pretty decent cyclist but what gearing. Would a 34-32 really make it that much easier to manage than say a 34-28 that I use now. They say sitting is the best way to climb but I guess I just do not do enough of it to really tell. I do know that when I am around more hilly terrain after a few days I get better at climbing.

Does the average cyclist planning to climb something like the Alpe D Huez factor in a break of a few minutes at some point or points. Any climbing experts in this group.



mark


I'm 73 now and so far this year have 75,000 feet of climbing. It has to be more than 5% grade (6% or more) to be classified as climbing.

Yesterday I did 37 miles and 3,500 feet in a 39/23. Using a big gear, believe it or not, actually uses less energy. Using a gear below 34/28 is generally counter productive since what you gain in less force required to turn the cranks is more than made up for in the length of time you're turning those cranks.

Now if you're so heavy that you can't turn the gear over you have to use smaller and smaller gears but I assume you're just a normal slightly overweight rider.

The trick is to use a slightly smaller gear than the largest one you can turn. And don't try to go fast unless you're a racer. That climb that they did in the Tour de France today we have a copy of without the absolute altitude which has its own problems. I am not particularly strong nor light. Near the top it hits 11% and then 12% for a short distance but basically it is a 10% climb for one mile. I climbed it in a 39-25 a week ago, rode down the other side turned around and went back over from the other side which has several 12% sections but a lot of only 6% stuff as well.

Climbing takes practice. And there is this funny thing each day you're doing these climbs, a 6% climb is a killer until you have to do a 7% and the same for an 8% etc. Then the 6% feels quite mild. 2 1/2 miles from my house is a 1 1/2 mile long 6% climb. It isn't the climb that gets to you as much as the length of the climb. Tunnel Road in Berkeley, CA, is the same sort of thing. It isn't very steep but you can die of old age climbing it.

A couple of months ago I took a trip down to Phoenix. That are tons of rollers around there but very little climbing. I'm back to riding steel bikes and the guys with ultra-light carbon fiber bikes were being left in the dust crying in pain from the climbing. Just practice.
  #15  
Old July 26th 18, 01:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default question about climbing

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 5:30:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 11:33:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I live in the flatlands and not a great climber but pretty solid rider. I have done some climbs according to various categories that are 3 and 4 rated. I got them ok on a 34-28 but not just easy. So I see the Alpe D'Huez and the rating plus going up 8 % for over 8 miles seems a bit much for me to comprehend.

Do most mortals who do the Alpe D"Huez go up without stopping during the climb? One climb I do is overall about 6% and it goes on for 1.2 miles. The very last section gets to 9% or about maybe 1/4 mile. I tell you I can get up no problem but I just cannot see keep that up for another 7 miles. I am pretty spent the last 200 feet.

So I assume those climbing these on tours and such are pretty decent cyclist but what gearing. Would a 34-32 really make it that much easier to manage than say a 34-28 that I use now. They say sitting is the best way to climb but I guess I just do not do enough of it to really tell. I do know that when I am around more hilly terrain after a few days I get better at climbing.

Does the average cyclist planning to climb something like the Alpe D Huez factor in a break of a few minutes at some point or points. Any climbing experts in this group.



mark


I'm 73 now and so far this year have 75,000 feet of climbing. It has to be more than 5% grade (6% or more) to be classified as climbing.

Yesterday I did 37 miles and 3,500 feet in a 39/23. Using a big gear, believe it or not, actually uses less energy. Using a gear below 34/28 is generally counter productive since what you gain in less force required to turn the cranks is more than made up for in the length of time you're turning those cranks.

Now if you're so heavy that you can't turn the gear over you have to use smaller and smaller gears but I assume you're just a normal slightly overweight rider.

The trick is to use a slightly smaller gear than the largest one you can turn. And don't try to go fast unless you're a racer. That climb that they did in the Tour de France today we have a copy of without the absolute altitude which has its own problems. I am not particularly strong nor light. Near the top it hits 11% and then 12% for a short distance but basically it is a 10% climb for one mile. I climbed it in a 39-25 a week ago, rode down the other side turned around and went back over from the other side which has several 12% sections but a lot of only 6% stuff as well.

Climbing takes practice. And there is this funny thing each day you're doing these climbs, a 6% climb is a killer until you have to do a 7% and the same for an 8% etc. Then the 6% feels quite mild. 2 1/2 miles from my house is a 1 1/2 mile long 6% climb. It isn't the climb that gets to you as much as the length of the climb. Tunnel Road in Berkeley, CA, is the same sort of thing. It isn't very steep but you can die of old age climbing it.

A couple of months ago I took a trip down to Phoenix. That are tons of rollers around there but very little climbing. I'm back to riding steel bikes and the guys with ultra-light carbon fiber bikes were being left in the dust crying in pain from the climbing. Just practice.


I am not huge at 6'2 and 171 pounds I should climb ok but I think the mental part is the issue.

MARK
  #17  
Old July 26th 18, 06:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default question about climbing

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 3:30:40 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 11:33:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I live in the flatlands and not a great climber but pretty solid rider. I have done some climbs according to various categories that are 3 and 4 rated. I got them ok on a 34-28 but not just easy. So I see the Alpe D'Huez and the rating plus going up 8 % for over 8 miles seems a bit much for me to comprehend.

Do most mortals who do the Alpe D"Huez go up without stopping during the climb? One climb I do is overall about 6% and it goes on for 1.2 miles. The very last section gets to 9% or about maybe 1/4 mile. I tell you I can get up no problem but I just cannot see keep that up for another 7 miles. I am pretty spent the last 200 feet.

So I assume those climbing these on tours and such are pretty decent cyclist but what gearing. Would a 34-32 really make it that much easier to manage than say a 34-28 that I use now. They say sitting is the best way to climb but I guess I just do not do enough of it to really tell. I do know that when I am around more hilly terrain after a few days I get better at climbing.

Does the average cyclist planning to climb something like the Alpe D Huez factor in a break of a few minutes at some point or points. Any climbing experts in this group.



mark


I'm 73 now and so far this year have 75,000 feet of climbing. It has to be more than 5% grade (6% or more) to be classified as climbing.

Yesterday I did 37 miles and 3,500 feet in a 39/23. Using a big gear, believe it or not, actually uses less energy. Using a gear below 34/28 is generally counter productive since what you gain in less force required to turn the cranks is more than made up for in the length of time you're turning those cranks.

Now if you're so heavy that you can't turn the gear over you have to use smaller and smaller gears but I assume you're just a normal slightly overweight rider.


Pfff. The pros are using 39/30 and some 34/30 on stage 17. The old climbing corn-cob is a vestige of the past. Cadence is up. Grinding is gone. Go ride with some Cat 1/2s and see what they're riding on climbs -- compacts and 28t cassettes. Spinning up hills just like they spin on the flats and rollers. Watch them roll away, talking, poking at their computers and eating. "Meet you at the top, Dad." Makes you feel pretty feeble.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #18  
Old July 27th 18, 08:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default question about climbing

On 2018-07-22 11:33, wrote:
I live in the flatlands and not a great climber but pretty solid
rider. I have done some climbs according to various categories that
are 3 and 4 rated. I got them ok on a 34-28 but not just easy. So I
see the Alpe D'Huez and the rating plus going up 8 % for over 8 miles
seems a bit much for me to comprehend.

Do most mortals who do the Alpe D"Huez go up without stopping during
the climb?
... One climb I do is overall about 6% and it goes on for 1.2
miles. The very last section gets to 9% or about maybe 1/4 mile. I
tell you I can get up no problem but I just cannot see keep that up
for another 7 miles. I am pretty spent the last 200 feet.


I hate climbs. The other thing is, I never know how steep something is
because there aren't any signs and even topo maps are not very useful
for finding out.


So I assume those climbing these on tours and such are pretty decent
cyclist but what gearing. Would a 34-32 really make it that much
easier to manage than say a 34-28 that I use now.



Every tooth more in back or less in front helps. Unfortuntely my current
road bike is limited to 42-32. When I was young and also weighed less I
could scale all hills with 42-21 but that was more than 30 years ago. It
is probably the reason why to this day I ride with much lower cadence
than others. Which tends to make bottom bracket bearings suffer. The BB
in my road bike has maybe 2000-3000 miles on it and already starts to
make clicking noises, despite picking an expensive one.


... They say sitting is
the best way to climb but I guess I just do not do enough of it to
really tell. I do know that when I am around more hilly terrain after
a few days I get better at climbing.


Same here but you have to keep at it at least once a week. Climbing
endurance is quickly lost.


Does the average cyclist planning to climb something like the Alpe D
Huez factor in a break of a few minutes at some point or points.



For me that entirely depends on whether there is a good saloon along the
way 8-)


... Any climbing experts in this group.


I am certainly not one. To me climbs are just a necessary evil of living
in a hilly area. It's always a net 1200ft coming back from the valley
with lots of ups and downs in between. Unfortunately it is not always
possible to let'er rip on the downhills to gain momentum.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #19  
Old July 27th 18, 10:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default question about climbing

On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 12:17:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-22 11:33, wrote:
I live in the flatlands and not a great climber but pretty solid
rider. I have done some climbs according to various categories that
are 3 and 4 rated. I got them ok on a 34-28 but not just easy. So I
see the Alpe D'Huez and the rating plus going up 8 % for over 8 miles
seems a bit much for me to comprehend.

Do most mortals who do the Alpe D"Huez go up without stopping during
the climb?
... One climb I do is overall about 6% and it goes on for 1.2
miles. The very last section gets to 9% or about maybe 1/4 mile. I
tell you I can get up no problem but I just cannot see keep that up
for another 7 miles. I am pretty spent the last 200 feet.


I hate climbs. The other thing is, I never know how steep something is
because there aren't any signs and even topo maps are not very useful
for finding out.


So I assume those climbing these on tours and such are pretty decent
cyclist but what gearing. Would a 34-32 really make it that much
easier to manage than say a 34-28 that I use now.



Every tooth more in back or less in front helps. Unfortuntely my current
road bike is limited to 42-32. When I was young and also weighed less I
could scale all hills with 42-21 but that was more than 30 years ago. It
is probably the reason why to this day I ride with much lower cadence
than others. Which tends to make bottom bracket bearings suffer. The BB
in my road bike has maybe 2000-3000 miles on it and already starts to
make clicking noises, despite picking an expensive one.


... They say sitting is
the best way to climb but I guess I just do not do enough of it to
really tell. I do know that when I am around more hilly terrain after
a few days I get better at climbing.


Same here but you have to keep at it at least once a week. Climbing
endurance is quickly lost.


Does the average cyclist planning to climb something like the Alpe D
Huez factor in a break of a few minutes at some point or points.



For me that entirely depends on whether there is a good saloon along the
way 8-)


... Any climbing experts in this group.


I am certainly not one. To me climbs are just a necessary evil of living
in a hilly area. It's always a net 1200ft coming back from the valley
with lots of ups and downs in between. Unfortunately it is not always
possible to let'er rip on the downhills to gain momentum.


You should get a Garmin or ride with someone who has one to see what the real elevation gain is between Sacto and Cameron Park. Saw-tooth climbs count extra, probably 50%.

I did 1,200 feet of climbing in about three or so miles to get home after work last night, most of that after stopping at a work shindig in the lower West Hills. 16% climb to get to the gathering, then after leaving, about a 45% climb on stairs to get to a connector street.
https://tinyurl.com/yc5pukmy And then various grades for the next few miles and then down to my neighborhood. Climbing advice: don't sit around eating pizza and beer and gin-and-tonics and then go climb. That's why I don't get the whole sitting around at pubs thing. I lose all desire to ride after drinking.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #20  
Old July 27th 18, 10:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default question about climbing

On 2018-07-27 14:07, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 12:17:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-22 11:33, wrote:


[...]


... Any climbing experts in this group.


I am certainly not one. To me climbs are just a necessary evil of
living in a hilly area. It's always a net 1200ft coming back from
the valley with lots of ups and downs in between. Unfortunately it
is not always possible to let'er rip on the downhills to gain
momentum.


You should get a Garmin or ride with someone who has one to see what
the real elevation gain is between Sacto and Cameron Park. Saw-tooth
climbs count extra, probably 50%.


Good idea. This weekend I'll be riding with someone who has one of those
fancy GPS-driven "bicycle computers". Maybe it has grade measurement,
I'll ask him.


I did 1,200 feet of climbing in about three or so miles to get home
after work last night, most of that after stopping at a work shindig
in the lower West Hills.



My 1200ft net is over roughly 10 miles. However, there are several ups
and downs added in, 1200ft is just the altitude difference between the
valley floor and where we are living.


... 16% climb to get to the gathering, then
after leaving, about a 45% climb on stairs to get to a connector
street.
https://tinyurl.com/yc5pukmy And then various grades for the
next few miles and then down to my neighborhood. Climbing advice:
don't sit around eating pizza and beer and gin-and-tonics and then go
climb. That's why I don't get the whole sitting around at pubs thing.
I lose all desire to ride after drinking.


I don't but I know riders who report the same effect on them. In Germany
or Ireland they'd probably pull your man card just for saying that :-)

However, meantime I limit myself to one beer and mostly one of not very
high alcohol content. Not because it would crimp my riding energy but
because I don't want to grow sideways. I am unfortunately "blessed" with
a very energy-efficient body, meaning low metabolism. I can ride and
ride and ride and not lose an ounce. So I usually order a Pilsener if
they have a good one because that's hard to brew at home. Long lagering
times at 45F which at Californian electricity prices gets expensive.
Plus it would clog up valuable space in my fermentation chamber (a
modified wine fridge).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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