Fenders. Or maybe mudguards.

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/10/2021 8:50 PM, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 4:49:55 p.m. UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/10/2021 3:47 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 10:05:10 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/10/2021 10:52 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Speaking of safety: Again, the collets and other design
tricks are used to allow fender stays to pop loose if (say)
a stick is snagged, to prevent locking the bike's wheel and
perhaps throwing a person over the bars. I've snagged sticks
only with my mountain bike and only in a minor way. How
common is that type of crash? Anyone encounter it?


I can't recall a case of rider injury from crud under
mudguard but it seems possible, horrible, and easy to design
around. The German standard requires such on the front so
mudguard sets sold there have to include a safety release.

Speaking of mudguard design, I prefer solid-strut welded
steel mudguards which AFAIK are no longer made anywhere.
They do not rattle. Adjustment, for those of you with
similar, is by changing the stay curvature slightly up near
the stay/mudguard interface.

I've dragged one or two front fenders into my wheel picking up
blow-down. Because of my superior bike-handling skills and Ninja-like
reflexes, I suffered no grievous bodily injury. More often than not,
the inconvenience is loose hardware or having to readjust them to fit
bigger rubber, etc. Riding through the Ozarks, my fenders packed up
with tar and crushed rock riding on hot macadam roads -- or whatever
that proto-asphalt is called. What a mess. I tossed the fenders.
Touring with fully loaded touring (not mountain) bikes on the rainy C&O
Towpath Trail, we encountered endless mud just the right consistency to
stick to our tires and the inside of the fenders. As the stuff packed in
there it gradually reduced the fender-to-mud-to-tire clearance to zero.

There was no drama (except for the cussing), but we'd pedal for maybe
half a mile, then scrape out the mud, then pedal for another half mile...

I eventually took a spare spoke and bent a C shape into each end. One
end in the plane of the spoke, one perpendicular, a custom mud-scraping
tool. It helped - a little.

The things we do for fun!

--
- Frank Krygowski

I rode through an area of mud that turned out to be a clay mud. It didn't
look too bad and that's why I started riding through it. It was very
hard slogging and withing 10 or so yards/meters, the fenders were so
caked with the stuff that the wheels no long would turn. BEWARE of clay based muds.

Cheers


I don’t ever remember wishing that I had fenders on my bike. If I was wet,
I was wet. But I can remember wishing the rider in front of me had them..
That might work for a guy using his bike only for sport, or for a
commuter riding in sport clothing and changing at the office.

It's not workable for a person riding in normal clothing and hoping to
look reasonably presentable at his destination.

IMO, its all about minimizing misery. I raced in the rain a million times without fenders and was content being wet and miserable, or I was nearing unconsciousness and didn't really care. Hypothermia can happen even when you're working hard. Anyway, sitting in jets of wheel spray, getting drenched, ****ing in your shorts, having snot and mud on your face -- its all part of the hard-man mythos of racing. You want that snapshot at the end of the race with the reverse raccoon eyes and super-muddy shaved legs --- as you shiver uncontrollably, trying to get your hands unclenched from the bars, dreaming of the car heater.

Commuting or going on a sport ride alone or with friends, well screw being miserable. I'm using fenders and keeping my crotch and feet as dry as possible for as long as possible. I'm also going to be a good neighbor to my riding companions. Although they can chose not to be on my wheel, there are times when you're forced into close quarters, and its nice to not get a face-full of water and road grit. Now, at mile 30 in driving rain, you're going to be soaked everywhere anyway, but at lest you were not miserable for a while. And if its just wet roads or beach mist or drizzle, you can be comfortable for the whole ride and return home with a mostly dry crotch. And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

IMO, its all about minimizing misery. I raced in the rain a million times without fenders and was
content being wet and miserable, or I was nearing unconsciousness and didn't really care.
Hypothermia can happen even when you're working hard. Anyway, sitting in jets of wheel spray,
getting drenched, ****ing in your shorts, having snot and mud on your face -- its all part of the
hard-man mythos of racing.

MY worst ever experience racing was the Sunapee Road Race in sunapee, New Hampshire (3 laps on a 19 mile circuit). The race was always held in april, and this particular year it was raining and 38 degrees. The race starts at the Sunapee Ski area base lodge, and goes downhill for 5 miles. By the time we got halfway down the hill, half the guys were shivering so bad it looked like they were in low-speed speed wobbles. I had put on every stitch of cycling clothing I could find in my car, and still my hands, knees and feet were numb, and I actually had what felt like an ice cream headache. The rain abated by the end of the race, but the damage was done early on. Half the peloton bailed at the end of the first lap. I managed to stay with the field and toughed it out.

You want that snapshot at the end of the race with the reverse
raccoon eyes and super-muddy shaved legs --- as you shiver uncontrollably, trying to get
your hands unclenched from the bars, dreaming of the car heater.

Check out the last lap of the Namur cx worldcup 2020...https://tiz-cycling.io/videos/cyclo-...mur-full-race/

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
... And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

As with so many other things, I wonder how much fenders slow a bike. I suspect the effect is
tiny.

I can envision three drag effects. Weight is one, but fenders weigh, what, maybe a pound?
Probably not two pounds. That's a small fraction of the bike+rider weight.

I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect the rear fender acts as a
fairing for that wheel and reduces its drag, so that may be close to a wash, especially if the
front fender isn't overly wide.

The third effect I can envision would occur only when the fenders are really doing their job. The
stream of water kicked up the tire (especially the front one) sure is unpleasant; but on a bike
without fenders, most of it misses the bike. On a bike with a fender and a flap, most of that
stream smacks into the fender and gets accelerated up to the speed of the bike. That means
there's a rearward force on the bike. Kind of similar to the force you'd feel if someone were
spraying you with a water hose.

But for me, it's worth it.

- Frank Krygowski

Op donderdag 11 februari 2021 om 23:17:10 UTC+1 schreef :
On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
... And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

As with so many other things, I wonder how much fenders slow a bike. I suspect the effect is
tiny.

I can envision three drag effects. Weight is one, but fenders weigh, what, maybe a pound?
Probably not two pounds. That's a small fraction of the bike+rider weight.

I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect the rear fender acts as a
fairing for that wheel and reduces its drag, so that may be close to a wash, especially if the
front fender isn't overly wide.

The third effect I can envision would occur only when the fenders are really doing their job. The
stream of water kicked up the tire (especially the front one) sure is unpleasant; but on a bike
without fenders, most of it misses the bike. On a bike with a fender and a flap, most of that
stream smacks into the fender and gets accelerated up to the speed of the bike. That means
there's a rearward force on the bike. Kind of similar to the force you'd feel if someone were
spraying you with a water hose.

But for me, it's worth it.

We know Frank and there is nothing wrong with that, but you questioned other peoples choice again. Why?

Lou

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:17:10 p.m. UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
... And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

As with so many other things, I wonder how much fenders slow a bike. I suspect the effect is
tiny.

I can envision three drag effects. Weight is one, but fenders weigh, what, maybe a pound?
Probably not two pounds. That's a small fraction of the bike+rider weight..

I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect the rear fender acts as a
fairing for that wheel and reduces its drag, so that may be close to a wash, especially if the
front fender isn't overly wide.

The third effect I can envision would occur only when the fenders are really doing their job. The
stream of water kicked up the tire (especially the front one) sure is unpleasant; but on a bike
without fenders, most of it misses the bike. On a bike with a fender and a flap, most of that
stream smacks into the fender and gets accelerated up to the speed of the bike. That means
there's a rearward force on the bike. Kind of similar to the force you'd feel if someone were
spraying you with a water hose.

But for me, it's worth it.

- Frank Krygowski

In Toronto, Canada (when I lived there) there were city works water trucks that rinsed the roads. That water was FRIGID! I put fenders on my bike and I never regretted it. Even riding through shallow standing water could be quite unpleasant without fenders.Mud/spray flaps on t he bottom of the fenders helps a lot. Another interesting thing to do is to mount a rear fender on the front fork. That stops the spray that you sometimes get from the top front of a regular front fender. The only problem is that you have to buy two sets of fenders. Or you might get lucky and get two rear fenders the same at a bicycle co-op.

A lot of bicyclists like to use a bicycling rain cape in conjunction with full fenders. That can make for very pleasant riding in milder weather.

Cheers

Frank Krygowski writes:

I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect
the rear fender acts as a fairing

More on this he

https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth...slow-you-down/

There is one effect, that makes you faster, at least in rain: Rider
comfort. I think in an older issue of Bicycle Quarterly Jan Heine did a
survey on equipment during a Paris-Brest-Paris with extremely foul
weather. If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between
"Did Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders: Numb toes, ankle pain, knee
pain, drivetrain worries, ..., all caused by the spraying of water and
dirt.

Best regards

Axel

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:17:10 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
... And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

As with so many other things, I wonder how much fenders slow a bike. I suspect the effect is
tiny.

I can envision three drag effects. Weight is one, but fenders weigh, what, maybe a pound?
Probably not two pounds. That's a small fraction of the bike+rider weight..

I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect the rear fender acts as a
fairing for that wheel and reduces its drag, so that may be close to a wash, especially if the
front fender isn't overly wide.

The third effect I can envision would occur only when the fenders are really doing their job. The
stream of water kicked up the tire (especially the front one) sure is unpleasant; but on a bike
without fenders, most of it misses the bike. On a bike with a fender and a flap, most of that
stream smacks into the fender and gets accelerated up to the speed of the bike. That means
there's a rearward force on the bike. Kind of similar to the force you'd feel if someone were
spraying you with a water hose.

But for me, it's worth it.

- Frank Krygowski
It could possibly be nothing at all since the contra-rotating upper half of the wheels is going twice the speed as the bike and is scooping air forward. We used to count on this to plug the area around the front brake causing an air dam. A fender might even be more aero if designed properly, though probably not with the fender spokes hanging out into the airstream.

On 2/11/2021 5:38 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 11 februari 2021 om 23:17:10 UTC+1 schreef :
On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
... And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

As with so many other things, I wonder how much fenders slow a bike. I suspect the effect is
tiny.

I can envision three drag effects. Weight is one, but fenders weigh, what, maybe a pound?
Probably not two pounds. That's a small fraction of the bike+rider weight.

I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect the rear fender acts as a
fairing for that wheel and reduces its drag, so that may be close to a wash, especially if the
front fender isn't overly wide.

The third effect I can envision would occur only when the fenders are really doing their job. The
stream of water kicked up the tire (especially the front one) sure is unpleasant; but on a bike
without fenders, most of it misses the bike. On a bike with a fender and a flap, most of that
stream smacks into the fender and gets accelerated up to the speed of the bike. That means
there's a rearward force on the bike. Kind of similar to the force you'd feel if someone were
spraying you with a water hose.

But for me, it's worth it.

We know Frank and there is nothing wrong with that, but you questioned other peoples choice again. Why?

Exactly where did I question someone else's choice?

Perhaps it's a language problem, but you seem to repeatedly mistake
attempts at (approximate) quantification for disagreement. That seems
very strange for an engineer.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
There is one effect, that makes you faster, at least in rain: Rider
comfort. I think in an older issue of Bicycle Quarterly Jan Heine did a
survey on equipment during a Paris-Brest-Paris with extremely foul
weather. If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between
"Did Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders: Numb toes, ankle pain, knee
pain, drivetrain worries, ..., all caused by the spraying of water and
dirt.

Best regards

Axel


That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris. On the way back, about 2 days after the start, it poured and poured and rained and rained for about 8 straight hours. And it was cold. Temps in the 50s Fahrenheit. It rained on me from about 10 PM to 3 AM on the way back. Buckets of rain at night and cold cold cold. So it did cause physical problems with the riders and bikes. BUT, PBP is not an official race. You just have to complete the ride in 80 or 84 or 90 total hours. And get to the various checkpoints before the cutoff time. But its not a race. You just have to ride at 10 mph constantly for the whole 90 hours and you make it. So you can stop and rest or shelter from the rain and cold. And there are towns and places to stop along the route. Every 50 miles or so. For me I rode 5 hours and 50 miles in the worst rain and cold possible before getting to a checkpoint with a shower and food and bed. I stopped there and cleaned up and rested for a few hours before continuing the next morning. Which was a warm pleasant day. It was only that 8 hour stretch of horrible rain and cold. And you could have avoided some of it without too much trouble.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant. The water was so strong it was falling out of the sky just as hard as it was splashing up from the road. Everything was soaked and cold.

Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 00:51:28 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 2/11/2021 5:38 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 11 februari 2021 om 23:17:10 UTC+1 schreef :
On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
... And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

As with so many other things, I wonder how much fenders slow a bike. I suspect the effect is
tiny.

I can envision three drag effects. Weight is one, but fenders weigh, what, maybe a pound?
Probably not two pounds. That's a small fraction of the bike+rider weight.

I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect the rear fender acts as a
fairing for that wheel and reduces its drag, so that may be close to a wash, especially if the
front fender isn't overly wide.

The third effect I can envision would occur only when the fenders are really doing their job. The
stream of water kicked up the tire (especially the front one) sure is unpleasant; but on a bike
without fenders, most of it misses the bike. On a bike with a fender and a flap, most of that
stream smacks into the fender and gets accelerated up to the speed of the bike. That means
there's a rearward force on the bike. Kind of similar to the force you'd feel if someone were
spraying you with a water hose.

But for me, it's worth it.

We know Frank and there is nothing wrong with that, but you questioned other peoples choice again. Why?
Exactly where did I question someone else's choice?


In your initial post you stated:
'I'm still bemused by the fact that so many American bicyclists won't
consider mounting fenders.'
English is not my first language but if someone is stunned/bemused in my world they don't understand the choice of those people or in other words question their choice.

Lou