The death of rim brakes?

On 3/11/2019 3:28 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:40:09 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/11/2019 3:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
I think discs would be an easy sale to the mountain-climbing clydesdales using CF rims and tubulars.

That's true and very reasonable.

But you're never going to save the bicycling industry with that kind of
reasonable talk!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Remember back in the days when MTB and touring bicycles cantilevers stuck straight out from the mounting post? IIRC it was Minoura that made a rear rack with a metal hoop that fitted over the cantilever so that saddle bags wouldn't hold the cantilever against the rim. At that time a b icycle with disc brakes would have been very attractive id buyng a new bike.

I also remember reading about disc brakes that one has to be very creful when removing a wheel shortly after using the brakes as the parts can fuse together if the brake lever is accidentally squeezed.
I do see a number of MTB in Canadian Tire stores coming with disc brakes now. I wonder what quality those brake parts are?

If interested here's a link to CT NTB bikes.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/sport...ain-bikes.html

Cheers


Just like cars and motorcycles, applying hydraulic brake
force with no rotor can allow piston to travel too far.
Nothing 'fuses', it just mangles piston seals. This is not
magic, not unique to bicycles and not new. If you're
concerned, get cable actuated discs.

I'm OK with any brake format - all have their features &
foibles - but let's not make things up.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 5:57:12 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/11/2019 3:28 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:40:09 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/11/2019 3:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
I think discs would be an easy sale to the mountain-climbing clydesdales using CF rims and tubulars.

That's true and very reasonable.

But you're never going to save the bicycling industry with that kind of
reasonable talk!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Remember back in the days when MTB and touring bicycles cantilevers stuck straight out from the mounting post? IIRC it was Minoura that made a rear rack with a metal hoop that fitted over the cantilever so that saddle bags wouldn't hold the cantilever against the rim. At that time a b icycle with disc brakes would have been very attractive id buyng a new bike.

I also remember reading about disc brakes that one has to be very creful when removing a wheel shortly after using the brakes as the parts can fuse together if the brake lever is accidentally squeezed.
I do see a number of MTB in Canadian Tire stores coming with disc brakes now. I wonder what quality those brake parts are?

If interested here's a link to CT NTB bikes.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/sport...ain-bikes.html

Cheers


Just like cars and motorcycles, applying hydraulic brake
force with no rotor can allow piston to travel too far.
Nothing 'fuses', it just mangles piston seals. This is not
magic, not unique to bicycles and not new. If you're
concerned, get cable actuated discs.

I'm OK with any brake format - all have their features &
foibles - but let's not make things up.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

First off I did not MAKE this up. It was something I read about some time ago. Secondly, iirc it was to do with CABLE actuated disc brakes not hydraulic ones.

Cheers

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:28:56 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Remember back in the days when MTB and touring bicycles cantilevers stuck straight out from the mounting post? IIRC it was Minoura that made a rear rack with a metal hoop that fitted over the cantilever so that saddle bags wouldn't hold the cantilever against the rim.

I remember those days, and I bought three different bikes
that had those classic style cantilevers, including our
matching Cannondale touring bikes. I think one advantage
compared to low profile cantilevers was that the
mechanical advantage was much more constant over the
range of travel.

The Cannondales came equipped with racks for panniers.
But the rear panniers did clash with those rear brake
arms. At first, I mounted the bags really far back; then
I switched to low profile cantilevers. The front racks
were for low rider bags, so they weren't a problem.

I wonder how things were done with the old Mafac
cantilever brakes in the 1960s or whenever they were
first used. Did they assume that everyone would use low
rider bags front and rear?

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 6:43:50 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:28:56 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Remember back in the days when MTB and touring bicycles cantilevers stuck straight out from the mounting post? IIRC it was Minoura that made a rear rack with a metal hoop that fitted over the cantilever so that saddle bags wouldn't hold the cantilever against the rim.

I remember those days, and I bought three different bikes
that had those classic style cantilevers, including our
matching Cannondale touring bikes. I think one advantage
compared to low profile cantilevers was that the
mechanical advantage was much more constant over the
range of travel.

The Cannondales came equipped with racks for panniers.
But the rear panniers did clash with those rear brake
arms. At first, I mounted the bags really far back; then
I switched to low profile cantilevers. The front racks
were for low rider bags, so they weren't a problem.

I wonder how things were done with the old Mafac
cantilever brakes in the 1960s or whenever they were
first used. Did they assume that everyone would use low
rider bags front and rear?

- Frank Krygowski

Perhaps the chainstays were longer back in the 1960s?

Today I see a lot of bikes with saddlebags mounted far aft of the center of the rear axle. I often wonder how bad the handling of those bicycles gets at speed?

Cheers

On 3/11/2019 4:14 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 6:43:50 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:28:56 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Remember back in the days when MTB and touring bicycles cantilevers stuck straight out from the mounting post? IIRC it was Minoura that made a rear rack with a metal hoop that fitted over the cantilever so that saddle bags wouldn't hold the cantilever against the rim.

I remember those days, and I bought three different bikes
that had those classic style cantilevers, including our
matching Cannondale touring bikes. I think one advantage
compared to low profile cantilevers was that the
mechanical advantage was much more constant over the
range of travel.

The Cannondales came equipped with racks for panniers.
But the rear panniers did clash with those rear brake
arms. At first, I mounted the bags really far back; then
I switched to low profile cantilevers. The front racks
were for low rider bags, so they weren't a problem.

I wonder how things were done with the old Mafac
cantilever brakes in the 1960s or whenever they were
first used. Did they assume that everyone would use low
rider bags front and rear?

- Frank Krygowski

Perhaps the chainstays were longer back in the 1960s?

Today I see a lot of bikes with saddlebags mounted far aft of the center of the rear axle. I often wonder how bad the handling of those bicycles gets at speed?

Cheers

Our touring tandem still has "high profile" cantis; we started with the
Mafacs and switched to the first-generation Shimanos, which allowed
toeing without bending the arms.

We did a great deal of self-supported touring on that bike, including
with "high-rider" front racks before the low-rider racks ?existed? (At
least Blackburn's design seemed to date to around 82ish?)

I seem to recall tying a cord to each rear pannier rack hook to keep it
from sliding forward on the rack and into the canti arms; I think later
I put a piece of slit semi-stiff aquarium tubing over the rack bars,
which had enough grip to solve the problem.

Handling with a fore-and-aft loaded tandem was fine, but we couldn't get
out of the saddle with bags on. That immediately set up a wild
oscillation. Oddly, I remember the bike being otherwise /more/ stable
with the (heavy) bags and other load on; it handled a lot like a truck.

Mark J.

On 3/11/2019 8:59 PM, Mark J. wrote:


Our touring tandem still has "high profile" cantis; we started with the
Mafacs and switched to the first-generation Shimanos, which allowed
toeing without bending the arms.

We did a great deal of self-supported touring on that bike, including
with "high-rider" front racks before the low-rider racks ?existed?Â* (At
least Blackburn's design seemed to date to around 82ish?)

I seem to recall tying a cord to each rear pannier rack hook to keep it
from sliding forward on the rack and into the canti arms; I think later
I put a piece of slit semi-stiff aquarium tubing over the rack bars,
which had enough grip to solve the problem.

Handling with a fore-and-aft loaded tandem was fine, but we couldn't get
out of the saddle with bags on.Â* That immediately set up a wild
oscillation.Â* Oddly, I remember the bike being otherwise /more/ stable
with the (heavy) bags and other load on; it handled a lot like a truck.

We used our tandem for a five day credit card tour a couple years ago. I
decided to leave the front panniers at home, despite my wife's desire to
take too many clothes. Our rear panniers were pretty stuffed.

I was disappointed to find we had a shimmy, IIRC it showed up if we
pedaled down hills at speeds over 20 mph or so. Coasting was fine. But
next time I'll add the front panniers. They do seem to increase stability.

Shimmy can be hard to figure out.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 09:10:17 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

Phuket, Thailand has several extremely steep hills on the western side
of the island, steep enough that it is difficult to push a bike up
them.

Out of curiosity I did push the bike up one and coasted down the
eastern side.

Having read all the hoopalla about the rims getting hot and tires
blowing I stopped about half way down and felt the rims... they were,
perhaps, a bit warmer than ambient temperature.

But. As the east side of the hill is a series of "S" turns one can't
just coast down the mountain but must slow down every hundred yards or
so to make the next corner so my braking was a series of pretty hard
brake applications followed by, perhaps, an equal period of coasting.

I have since used that method when descending hills and an occasional
check shows that the rims do not get excessively hot.


I have never even considered dragging my brakes, except that one time
in Schenectady when I got caught in a pace line of automobiles. Cars
are so squirrely that I had to stand on the pedals while dragging the
brakes to match the oscillations in speed. Surprised me a lot, since
heavier bikes are more stable than lighter ones, I had thought that a
very heavy vehicle would be very stable.

When I lived in Albany County, New York, I would stop every mile or so
on downhills and feel my rims, but never found them hot.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around automotive and
motorcycles. How many new cars and motorcycles are there that still have
drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim brakes are
inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on the road bikes and it had
rained. Muddy. Afterwards a descent on pavement, I reached in and after
the usual and expected one-second of zero brake action the rim brakes
came on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could literally hear
aluminum being eaten.

If I ever need a new road bike it will have disc brakes or I won't buy.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 3/12/2019 10:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically
all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone
but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look
and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are
these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around
automotive and motorcycles. How many new cars and
motorcycles are there that still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim
brakes are inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on
the road bikes and it had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a
descent on pavement, I reached in and after the usual and
expected one-second of zero brake action the rim brakes came
on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could literally
hear aluminum being eaten.

If I ever need a new road bike it will have disc brakes or I
won't buy.


How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/03/2019 2:13 p.m., AMuzi wrote:
On 3/12/2019 10:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically
all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone
but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look
and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are
these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around
automotive and motorcycles. How many new cars and
motorcycles are there that still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim
brakes are inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on
the road bikes and it had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a
descent on pavement, I reached in and after the usual and
expected one-second of zero brake action the rim brakes came
on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could literally
hear aluminum being eaten.

If I ever need a new road bike it will have disc brakes or I
won't buy.


How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.



I think all of them weighing over 2000 lbs do...