White Lightning vs. Purple Extreme

On 25 Jul 2004 17:56:14 GMT, (TBGibb) wrote:

Here's a challenge for you: mark your chain into two halves and lube one half
with "Purple Extreme" and the other half with WL. Measure the halves for
elongation (AKA "stretch") at intervals and report on which lubrication
produces the longest lived chain (the half that gets to 12 1/16 over 24 links
first)

Won't the lubes mix as they transfer via the cogs?

Your greatly-appreciated chain cleaning & lube effects test didn't
have that problem since the same lube was used for both halves.
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In article , Werehatrack
writes:

Won't the lubes mix as they transfer via the cogs?

Your greatly-appreciated chain cleaning & lube effects test didn't
have that problem since the same lube was used for both halves.

Certainly there will be some transfer of lubrication via the cogs, but will the
amounts be significant? I personally don't think so, there would need to be
more an an "innoculation" of the contaminating lubricant. The lube that was
put on the half would be the dominate influence.

I think that one would have to come up with an expensive labratory method to
compare two different chain lubes that would be identical in all respects.
Even in my test there "could" have been some transfer of grit from the
"unwashed" half to the "washed" one, but whatever grit was present on the
"unwashed" half should have caused a lot more wear on the half from which it
came.

Tom Gibb

In article , Werehatrack
writes:

Won't the lubes mix as they transfer via the cogs?

Your greatly-appreciated chain cleaning & lube effects test didn't
have that problem since the same lube was used for both halves.

Certainly there will be some transfer of lubrication via the cogs, but will the
amounts be significant? I personally don't think so, there would need to be
more an an "innoculation" of the contaminating lubricant. The lube that was
put on the half would be the dominate influence.

I think that one would have to come up with an expensive labratory method to
compare two different chain lubes that would be identical in all respects.
Even in my test there "could" have been some transfer of grit from the
"unwashed" half to the "washed" one, but whatever grit was present on the
"unwashed" half should have caused a lot more wear on the half from which it
came.

Tom Gibb

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:31:53 GMT, "Monty"
wrote:
I used it for over 1,000 and was very happy with it. The chain was quieter
and the bike shifted better. I recently put a new chain on the bike and
thought I would document the difference. For the first 150 miles I used
White Lightning. Then photographed the chain. I then thoroughly cleaned
the chain and used Purple Extreme. At 150 miles I, once again,
photographed the chain. I rode the same road on both tests. (Wisconsin
back roads, generally blacktop or seal coated)

When you got the new chain, did you thoroughly clean it before applying
White Lightning? Or did you just apply the White Lightning over the
lube that came on the chain?

justen

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:31:53 GMT, "Monty"
wrote:
I used it for over 1,000 and was very happy with it. The chain was quieter
and the bike shifted better. I recently put a new chain on the bike and
thought I would document the difference. For the first 150 miles I used
White Lightning. Then photographed the chain. I then thoroughly cleaned
the chain and used Purple Extreme. At 150 miles I, once again,
photographed the chain. I rode the same road on both tests. (Wisconsin
back roads, generally blacktop or seal coated)

When you got the new chain, did you thoroughly clean it before applying
White Lightning? Or did you just apply the White Lightning over the
lube that came on the chain?

justen

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:18:43 -0300, Commuter Cyclist
-an-address wrote:

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:13:23 +0000, Werehatrack wrote:

On 25 Jul 2004 17:56:14 GMT, (TBGibb) wrote:
...
Your greatly-appreciated chain cleaning & lube effects test didn't have
that problem since the same lube was used for both halves.

Is there a quick way to find this posting? Does someone have the MSGID or
other details to find it? Searching for messages from tbgibb didn't work.

Thanks.


Dear CommCycle,

Clicking on this gets you into the middle of the thread:

http://tinyurl.com/3uhq4

It's fairly easy to browse once you're in google groups.

Carl Fogel

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:18:43 -0300, Commuter Cyclist
-an-address wrote:

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:13:23 +0000, Werehatrack wrote:

On 25 Jul 2004 17:56:14 GMT, (TBGibb) wrote:
...
Your greatly-appreciated chain cleaning & lube effects test didn't have
that problem since the same lube was used for both halves.

Is there a quick way to find this posting? Does someone have the MSGID or
other details to find it? Searching for messages from tbgibb didn't work.

Thanks.


Dear CommCycle,

Clicking on this gets you into the middle of the thread:

http://tinyurl.com/3uhq4

It's fairly easy to browse once you're in google groups.

Carl Fogel

In article pan.2004.07.25.23.18.41.789338@cyclist, Commuter Cyclist
-an-address writes:

Is there a quick way to find this posting? Does someone have the MSGID or
other details to find it? Searching for messages from tbgibb didn't work.

Here it is:

To interject some real data into the chain lubrication debate I devised the
following method for comparing two methods.

1. Take one PC-48 chain, size it for the bike and then "break" it into two
equal sections
2. Join the two sections with second "Power Link."
3. Mark a section by cutting a shallow "+" sign in a rivet with a Dremel and a
cut off wheel so the individual chain sections would always be cleaned by the
same method.
4. Clean one section (called "washed") by thrashing it in paint thinner,
changing the thinner until there is a clean wash. It took 5-6 to do this. I
always used fresh (instead of thinner that was being reused by allowing it to
settle prior to being filtered through a coffee filter) thinner for the last
2-3 washes.
5. Clean the other section (called "unwashed") by throughly wiping it off with
a rag and then brushing it with a tooth brush.
6. Otherwise treat both sections exactly the same oiling both with Quaker State
chain saw bar oil.
7. Measure the chain sections as follows:
a. hang the chain section with a five pound weight on it (a set of
automobile cable chains).
b. measure with an 18 inch ruler that is ruled to 1/32 in the first inch.
Using that long a ruler allowed us to measure between the 1 inch
mark and the 13 inch mark so we could use that first inch and
extrapolate to 1/64.
c. have my wife confirm the measurements (we argued about them several
times).
8. Put the chain back together, oil it, wipe it down to remove excess oil,
replace it on the bike and ride it until the chain needs cleaning again.
9. Repeat until 24 links in one section measures 12 1/16.

Results:

Date Miles Elongation Elongation Notes
of washed of unwashed
chain chain
07/11/03 0
07/14/03 137.1 0 0 Dusty and
noisy
07/23/03 328.6 1/64 1/64 Dusty and
slightly noisy
08/01/03 607.24 1/64 1/64
08/11/03 819.71 1/64 1/64
09/02/03 1076.67 1/64 1/32
rain
09/19/03 1430.39 1/64 1/32
noisy
10/23/03 1801.17 3/64 1/32

11/07/03 2257.55 3/64 1/32

01/05/04 2739.52 1/16 1/32
Very dirty and noisy


Conclusions:
It isn't worth it to soak a chain out in solvent. I've stopped doing so, but I
will be very careful to measure often.
The presence of my wife Susan (an unbiased observer) in this was essential, I
(she) caught myself (me) seeing more wear in the "unwashed" chain than in the
"washed" one early in the trial.

Comments:
It was not easy to measure the chain to the 1/64 level, we spent some time
getting the light right so we could see the marks and either took the glasses
off (Susan) or used 4X readers (me) and we still had to work at it.
I used a needed fresh cassette at the begining.
The bike was my "beater" bike, a Cannondale M700. I use it for commuting and
errands. Part of the riding was on gravel trails.
The method could easily be used to compare other cleaning methods and other
lubricants.
I was prepared to take SRAM to task for advocating cleaning chains by wiping
them down with some kind of degreaser on the rag (trying to sell extra chains
are you?) HA! or NOT!


Tom Gibb


Tom Gibb

In article pan.2004.07.25.23.18.41.789338@cyclist, Commuter Cyclist
-an-address writes:

Is there a quick way to find this posting? Does someone have the MSGID or
other details to find it? Searching for messages from tbgibb didn't work.

Here it is:

To interject some real data into the chain lubrication debate I devised the
following method for comparing two methods.

1. Take one PC-48 chain, size it for the bike and then "break" it into two
equal sections
2. Join the two sections with second "Power Link."
3. Mark a section by cutting a shallow "+" sign in a rivet with a Dremel and a
cut off wheel so the individual chain sections would always be cleaned by the
same method.
4. Clean one section (called "washed") by thrashing it in paint thinner,
changing the thinner until there is a clean wash. It took 5-6 to do this. I
always used fresh (instead of thinner that was being reused by allowing it to
settle prior to being filtered through a coffee filter) thinner for the last
2-3 washes.
5. Clean the other section (called "unwashed") by throughly wiping it off with
a rag and then brushing it with a tooth brush.
6. Otherwise treat both sections exactly the same oiling both with Quaker State
chain saw bar oil.
7. Measure the chain sections as follows:
a. hang the chain section with a five pound weight on it (a set of
automobile cable chains).
b. measure with an 18 inch ruler that is ruled to 1/32 in the first inch.
Using that long a ruler allowed us to measure between the 1 inch
mark and the 13 inch mark so we could use that first inch and
extrapolate to 1/64.
c. have my wife confirm the measurements (we argued about them several
times).
8. Put the chain back together, oil it, wipe it down to remove excess oil,
replace it on the bike and ride it until the chain needs cleaning again.
9. Repeat until 24 links in one section measures 12 1/16.

Results:

Date Miles Elongation Elongation Notes
of washed of unwashed
chain chain
07/11/03 0
07/14/03 137.1 0 0 Dusty and
noisy
07/23/03 328.6 1/64 1/64 Dusty and
slightly noisy
08/01/03 607.24 1/64 1/64
08/11/03 819.71 1/64 1/64
09/02/03 1076.67 1/64 1/32
rain
09/19/03 1430.39 1/64 1/32
noisy
10/23/03 1801.17 3/64 1/32

11/07/03 2257.55 3/64 1/32

01/05/04 2739.52 1/16 1/32
Very dirty and noisy


Conclusions:
It isn't worth it to soak a chain out in solvent. I've stopped doing so, but I
will be very careful to measure often.
The presence of my wife Susan (an unbiased observer) in this was essential, I
(she) caught myself (me) seeing more wear in the "unwashed" chain than in the
"washed" one early in the trial.

Comments:
It was not easy to measure the chain to the 1/64 level, we spent some time
getting the light right so we could see the marks and either took the glasses
off (Susan) or used 4X readers (me) and we still had to work at it.
I used a needed fresh cassette at the begining.
The bike was my "beater" bike, a Cannondale M700. I use it for commuting and
errands. Part of the riding was on gravel trails.
The method could easily be used to compare other cleaning methods and other
lubricants.
I was prepared to take SRAM to task for advocating cleaning chains by wiping
them down with some kind of degreaser on the rag (trying to sell extra chains
are you?) HA! or NOT!


Tom Gibb


Tom Gibb

2700 miles on a chain? Sounds like the lubricant isn't too good for the
chain. I typically get 8000 miles out of my Dura Ace chains before they
get 1/8" "stretch" over the ENTIRE length, my criteria for replacement.


I use a Quicklink (against recommendations of Shimano, of course) to
allow easy removal. I clean in an $40 ultrasonic cleaner with paint
thinner, changing the solvent twice. Final rinse is with acetone for
quick dry.

I lube with White Lightning, letting it dry overnight. Chain cleanings
are every 500 miles, give or take a few. If the rollers are rattling, I
brush the chain with a large nylon brush until clean, then reapply WL.
This gets the majority of the road grit off but the fresh WL looks dark
when it dissolves the inside crud.

Post mortems of worn chain indicates no perceptable wear of the pins.
Only the side plates and rollers are worn. The pins have some kind of
carbide/nitride/chromium plating which resists wear.

The benefit of my process is a chain that is never too "gunky" to touch
and a good year's worth of riding.


--
Weisse Luft