front brake mantra should be taken with salt

Art Harris wrote:

The official mantra states, "On a clean, dry road the front brake
cannot skid."


Oops, make that, "On a clean, dry road the front TIRE cannot skid."

Art Harris

Duane Hebert wrote:
For road bikes I was always taught to use both brakes and shift weight
back over the rear wheel to prevent flips. *In fact, just went through
the training for new club members and it's still in the handbook.

Why would you not want to use both brakes on normal dry pavement?
(If you don't want to respond until after game 7, I'll understand - but
Go Habs!)- Hide quoted text -


On clean, dry pavement, maximum braking occurs when the rear wheel
starts to lift off the ground. At that point, the rear brake
contributes nothing.

See:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

Art Harris

On 4/20/2011 9:36 AM, Art Harris wrote:
Duane Hebert wrote:
For road bikes I was always taught to use both brakes and shift weight
back over the rear wheel to prevent flips. In fact, just went through
the training for new club members and it's still in the handbook.

Why would you not want to use both brakes on normal dry pavement?
(If you don't want to respond until after game 7, I'll understand - but
Go Habs!)- Hide quoted text -


On clean, dry pavement, maximum braking occurs when the rear wheel
starts to lift off the ground. At that point, the rear brake
contributes nothing.

See:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

I've read what Sheldon has to say and don't disagree with him.

The rear brake contributes nothing on clean dry pavement. But if you
hit gravel or something slippery the rear brakes works. You can't
always tell that you're going to stay on clean dry roads during your
stop. For example, gravel tends to accumulate at the bottom of hills.
I've nearly lost it under this condition. If I'm using both brakes, and
the front starts to slip, the rear will come down and I have a better
chance of regaining control.

If the road is clear and dry, and I use both brakes, I will put more
pressure on the front (probably about 3 times more) and shift my weight
to the back. If the back starts to skid, I will pump the front a bit to
control it. If I'm braking hard enough to raise the rear wheel then it
doesn't matter what I do to the rear brake as long as I'm not depending
on it to stop me.

If I'm descending, even on a clear dry road, I will still use both so
that I don't burn the front pads.

If I'm braking on a turn I will use both to maintain my balance. I know
that I'm losing speed doing that but I'm not a racer.

For me, it seems simpler to use both all the time and learn to put
weight over the rear wheel and pump the front when needed.

I think an expert cyclist, especially one that races probably uses a
different technique than I do.

At the club, we teach the new guys to use both and put their weight
back. I've seen a few guys go over the bars. But certainly some of the
faster riders use Jobst's techniques.

On 4/20/2011 10:10 AM, Duane Hebert wrote:
On 4/20/2011 9:36 AM, Art Harris wrote:
Duane Hebert wrote:
For road bikes I was always taught to use both brakes and shift weight
back over the rear wheel to prevent flips. In fact, just went through
the training for new club members and it's still in the handbook.

Why would you not want to use both brakes on normal dry pavement?
(If you don't want to respond until after game 7, I'll understand - but
Go Habs!)- Hide quoted text -


On clean, dry pavement, maximum braking occurs when the rear wheel
starts to lift off the ground. At that point, the rear brake
contributes nothing.

See:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

I've read what Sheldon has to say and don't disagree with him.

The rear brake contributes nothing on clean dry pavement. But if you hit
gravel or something slippery the rear brakes works. You can't always
tell that you're going to stay on clean dry roads during your stop. For
example, gravel tends to accumulate at the bottom of hills. I've nearly
lost it under this condition. If I'm using both brakes, and the front
starts to slip, the rear will come down and I have a better chance of
regaining control.

If the front starts to slip you usually go down -- quickly.


If the road is clear and dry, and I use both brakes, I will put more
pressure on the front (probably about 3 times more) and shift my weight
to the back.

Why? Just use the front alone.

If the back starts to skid, I will pump the front a bit to
control it. If I'm braking hard enough to raise the rear wheel then it
doesn't matter what I do to the rear brake as long as I'm not depending
on it to stop me.

If you're braking hard, the rear is useless. Likewise, it's not
necessary when you're braking less hard unless you've got traction issues.


If I'm descending, even on a clear dry road, I will still use both so
that I don't burn the front pads.

Modern pads don't burn. You can distribute the heat load better on the
rims by using both brakes, but this only becomes an issue on long
continuous braking. To get an idea of how fast your rims heat, stop
occasionally on long descents and check them, just to calibrate your
judgment.


If I'm braking on a turn I will use both to maintain my balance. I know
that I'm losing speed doing that but I'm not a racer.

That's not necessary nor desirable. It's easy to inadvertently skid the
rear as it becomes unweighted and the bike will tend to jackknife.
Brakes don't affect balance.


For me, it seems simpler to use both all the time and learn to put
weight over the rear wheel and pump the front when needed.

It's easier to just use the front in normal riding, adding the back only
(judiciously) in lowered traction surface riding and/or long descents
with heavy continuous braking.


I think an expert cyclist, especially one that races probably uses a
different technique than I do.

At the club, we teach the new guys to use both and put their weight
back. I've seen a few guys go over the bars. But certainly some of the
faster riders use Jobst's techniques.

Going over the bars is usually from the brakes grabbing or the arms not
being able to take the g-load. At a nominal 0.7G, you're supporting a
large fraction of your body weight (awkwardly). The main reason to slide
back is so you can brace yourself better. All this becomes much more
obvious in mountain biking, where grades are much more severe and
surfaces much more variable. You want to have your arms nearly fully
extended (not locked) and as horizontal as possible, that usually
requires sliding back on the saddle as you lower your upper body as much
as possible. An uneven surface can create higher momentary G loads which
can buckle your arms. It's rare to "cartwheel" a bike, I've only seen it
happen with large irregularities (potholes, curbs, etc.).

Brakeless fixed gear cyclists and sloppy mountain bikers often brake
with a rear wheel skid. These are easy to control without any front
braking, but a skidding rear wheel will just as happily go sideways. If
you apply front braking you have created an unstable situation, like a
cone balancing on its tip.

On very low friction surfaces, using both brakes will achieve maximum
possible deceleration, but it's very tricky, as riding on snow and ice
will quickly demonstrate. You have to leave some margin before front
wheel skid, since those almost always result in a crash, but if you're
using any front brake you've also got to avoid rear wheel skid to
prevent jackknifing. The best way to do this is with constant front
wheel braking and modulated rear braking, backing off when you feel the
rear lose traction. It was for this reason that Sheldon said he always
preferred fixed gear for snow riding as he could detect rear wheel skid
more easily.

Duane Hebert wrote:

The rear brake contributes nothing on clean dry pavement. *But if you
hit gravel or something slippery the rear brakes works. *You can't
always tell that you're going to stay on clean dry roads during your
stop. *For example, gravel tends to accumulate at the bottom of hills.
I've nearly lost it under this condition. *If I'm using both brakes, and
the front starts to slip, the rear will come down and I have a better
chance of regaining control.

If the road is clear and dry, and I use both brakes, I will put more
pressure on the front (probably about 3 times more) and shift my weight
to the back. *If the back starts to skid, I will pump the front a bit to
control it. *If I'm braking hard enough to raise the rear wheel then it
doesn't matter what I do to the rear brake as long as I'm not depending
on it to stop me.

If I'm descending, even on a clear dry road, I will still use both so
that I don't burn the front pads.

If I'm braking on a turn I will use both to maintain my balance. *I know
that I'm losing speed doing that but I'm not a racer.

For me, it seems simpler to use both all the time and learn to put
weight over the rear wheel and pump the front when needed.

I think an expert cyclist, especially one that races probably uses a
different technique than I do.

At the club, we teach the new guys to use both and put their weight
back. *I've seen a few guys go over the bars. *But certainly some of the
faster riders use Jobst's techniques.- Hide quoted text -


You make some good points. Even Jobst's article of fast descending
recommends using both brakes when leaning over on fast descents or in
hairpin turns.

The problem is that many of us were taught as kids that using the
front brake would cause the bike to flip over. I think a lot of riders
still remember those warnings and hesitate to brake hard with the
front brake even in an emergency. Learniing how to get the maximum
braking power out the front brake is a critical safety skill.

Art Harris

Duane Hebert writes:

On 4/20/2011 9:36 AM, Art Harris wrote:
Duane Hebert wrote:
For road bikes I was always taught to use both brakes and shift weight
back over the rear wheel to prevent flips. In fact, just went through
the training for new club members and it's still in the handbook.

Why would you not want to use both brakes on normal dry pavement?
(If you don't want to respond until after game 7, I'll understand - but
Go Habs!)- Hide quoted text -


On clean, dry pavement, maximum braking occurs when the rear wheel
starts to lift off the ground. At that point, the rear brake
contributes nothing.

See:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

I've read what Sheldon has to say and don't disagree with him.

The rear brake contributes nothing on clean dry pavement. But if you
hit gravel or something slippery the rear brakes works. You can't
always tell that you're going to stay on clean dry roads during your
stop. For example, gravel tends to accumulate at the bottom of
hills. I've nearly lost it under this condition. If I'm using both
brakes, and the front starts to slip, the rear will come down and I
have a better chance of regaining control.

If the road is clear and dry, and I use both brakes, I will put more
pressure on the front (probably about 3 times more) and shift my
weight to the back. If the back starts to skid, I will pump the front
a bit to control it. If I'm braking hard enough to raise the rear
wheel then it doesn't matter what I do to the rear brake as long as
I'm not depending on it to stop me.

If I'm descending, even on a clear dry road, I will still use both so
that I don't burn the front pads.

If I'm braking on a turn I will use both to maintain my balance. I
know that I'm losing speed doing that but I'm not a racer.

For me, it seems simpler to use both all the time and learn to put
weight over the rear wheel and pump the front when needed.

I think an expert cyclist, especially one that races probably uses a
different technique than I do.

At the club, we teach the new guys to use both and put their weight
back. I've seen a few guys go over the bars. But certainly some of
the faster riders use Jobst's techniques.

A problem with using two is that when the rear wheel locks, you
lose some control. If you have to turn will braking hard (not
uncommon in a panic situation), the rear wheel will slide.
It's recoverable, but you get better control if the wheel doesn't
lock.

--
Joe Riel

On 4/20/2011 11:19 AM, Art Harris wrote:
Duane Hebert wrote:

The rear brake contributes nothing on clean dry pavement. But if you
hit gravel or something slippery the rear brakes works. You can't
always tell that you're going to stay on clean dry roads during your
stop. For example, gravel tends to accumulate at the bottom of hills.
I've nearly lost it under this condition. If I'm using both brakes, and
the front starts to slip, the rear will come down and I have a better
chance of regaining control.

If the road is clear and dry, and I use both brakes, I will put more
pressure on the front (probably about 3 times more) and shift my weight
to the back. If the back starts to skid, I will pump the front a bit to
control it. If I'm braking hard enough to raise the rear wheel then it
doesn't matter what I do to the rear brake as long as I'm not depending
on it to stop me.

If I'm descending, even on a clear dry road, I will still use both so
that I don't burn the front pads.

If I'm braking on a turn I will use both to maintain my balance. I know
that I'm losing speed doing that but I'm not a racer.

For me, it seems simpler to use both all the time and learn to put
weight over the rear wheel and pump the front when needed.

I think an expert cyclist, especially one that races probably uses a
different technique than I do.

At the club, we teach the new guys to use both and put their weight
back. I've seen a few guys go over the bars. But certainly some of the
faster riders use Jobst's techniques.- Hide quoted text -


You make some good points. Even Jobst's article of fast descending
recommends using both brakes when leaning over on fast descents or in
hairpin turns.

Only when racing, it's not at all necessary to brake through a turn
otherwise, nor is it necessary to push things to the limit of traction.
In the Alps or desert you may be able to see what's around the bend, in
many other places, not so much. If you can't see sand, rough pavement or
camber changes you may be in for a rude surprise.


The problem is that many of us were taught as kids that using the
front brake would cause the bike to flip over. I think a lot of riders
still remember those warnings and hesitate to brake hard with the
front brake even in an emergency. Learniing how to get the maximum
braking power out the front brake is a critical safety skill.

It's also very easy to practice.

On Apr 20, 7:37*am, Peter Cole wrote:
On 4/20/2011 8:27 AM, raamman wrote:





On Apr 19, 11:39 pm, *wrote:
I'm a front braker. I wear out front pads more often than the rear.

But this evening I tried to mod my downhill speed *on *a gravel strewn
road with the front brake, and wiped out in an extraordinary fashion,
No big deal, just stubbed my paw.
Just be careful out there, and don't teach noobs to worship the front
brake.

Don't be me, ride smart.

why aren't you using both brakes to balance out your stopping ?
consider that if one brake is inadequate in case of an emergency stop,
how much time/ distance do you lose before you realize this and react
to use the other brake ? I think that when speed depends on reflexive
action you need to practice those actions most often

Your front brake shouldn't be "inadequate". It can be dangerous to use
both brakes in a panic stop since, if the rear tire should skid first
(which is usually does from unloading), the rear of the bike often tends
to come around (jackknife), particularly if you're in even a slight turn.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

PROBLEM is two wheel braking gives double or less braking surface than
one wheel braking. THAT SAID, we make4 the point where motocycle
racers notably Gary Nixon last seen riding in a country and western
film would stand the cycle up on front while braking.
AHA ! motorcycle racer motorcycle racer. THINK THINK ! you are WHAT ?
not a motorcycle racer. NO ! you are imprisoned in the real world of
varying surfaces where reality curves will show decreased stopping
distances using two balanced wheels not one where your entire weight
forcing that cheapo tire down into the undesirable road surface not
Laguna fersure or Rad ATL's back straight RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
will now swing braking effectiveness to two wheels.

IHS

On Apr 20, 7:02*am, Art Harris wrote:
landotter wrote:
I'm a front braker. I wear out front pads more often than the rear.

But this evening I tried to mod my downhill speed *on *a gravel strewn
road with the front brake, and wiped out in an extraordinary fashion,
No big deal, just stubbed my paw.
Just be careful out there, and don't teach noobs to worship the front
brake.

Don't be me, ride smart.

The official mantra states, "On a clean, dry road the front brake
cannot skid."

I'm taking that damn phrase off my prayer wheel.

On Apr 19, 8:39 pm, landotter wrote:
I'm a front braker. I wear out front pads more often than the rear.

But this evening I tried to mod my downhill speed on a gravel strewn
road with the front brake, and wiped out in an extraordinary fashion,
No big deal, just stubbed my paw.
Just be careful out there, and don't teach noobs to worship the front
brake.

Don't be me, ride smart.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...95fb10aea46f08