New Bontager Helmet Material

On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 10:59:10 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 3/26/2019 10:02 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:13:26 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 2:16:08 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:51:29 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

Whether cycling is dangerous depends on your environment.

Of course. The same can be said of walking, driving, swimming, etc.
Yet nobody calls for helmets for all walkers or drivers. Nobody calls
for water wings for all swimmers, even though it's per-hour fatality
rate dwarfs that of cycling.

With the crazy mix of transportation modes around here, I'm
surprised more people aren't getting injured, e.g.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/13999793819 Yes, as a
cyclist, you're supposed to ride up that cut into a bunch of people
waiting to get on a street car. The morning ride is a scrum
through the south waterfront.

And the motivation for such hideous segregated bike facilities? The
motivation is the false idea that riding on normal roads is terribly
dangerous.

Ooops. What I was going to say is that those curb cuts occur to
accommodate an island created for the street car. You could continue
straight, but the bike lane ends, and a lot of people are afraid of
crossing parallel train tracks to take the lane.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikepo...n/photostream/

Those timid cyclists probably lack this essential, triathlete-tested safety
equipment, now sold out almost everwhere due to enormous demand in rainy
regions...
http://www.fsc-graz.at/outlets-adidas-spezieller-stil-silicone-slogan-badekappe-blacksilver-met-cv7668-zs70932-p-37006.html


some questions defy simple solutions. There's always one (or
more) previously unconsidered factor(s):

https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/l...look-like-sh-/

To be more exact, motor and insurance industry lobbyists, posing as
government and traffic safety councils, pay shallow models to state the
obvious. It seems fitting that they are unapologetically sh__ting on the
late Lagerfeld's ashes by barbarically anglo-dumbing down and plagiarizing
the ten-year old French government's original vest legislation slogan,
"C'est jaune, c'est moche, ça ne va avec rien, mais ça peut sauver la vie."

Fight the power!

When I was young, the approach was different with car safety and seatbelts. In driver's ed, you had to watch those Ohio State Police films like "Wheels of Tragedy" and "Signal 30." Grainy, black and white footage from horrible traffic accidents. I still remember the scene where a PU driver got a 2" pipe through his head. Someone in the class was guaranteed to throw-up or pass-out. Aaah, the good old days. Now its selling safety products with sex. Hot models are far easier to watch than head wounds, although showing models may amount to body shaming or some other modern angsty insult to the lesser endowed. You never know what is going to be traumatic these days.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/26/2019 12:08 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 2:48:49 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/26/2019 9:18 AM, Andre Jute wrote:

I wear a helmet every time I leave the house ...

If that were really true,

You'll never know, Franki-boy.

your neighbors must find it amusing.

You're thicker than two short planks, Franki-boy. Once again you assume, despite all prior experience to the contrary, that you know more about what I do than I do. You don't know anything. For instance, in your foolish remark above, your underlying assumption is that I ever leave the house on foot. You don't know whether I do or don't.

:-) Ah, Jute! Too ego-bound to say "Sorry, I meant any time I leave the
house on a bike."

Anyway, aren't you the dimbo who wants pedestrians to wear helmets?

You've got it precisely backward, as usual.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/26/2019 1:59 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote:


https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/l...look-like-sh-/

To be more exact, motor and insurance industry lobbyists, posing as
government and traffic safety councils, pay shallow models to state the
obvious. It seems fitting that they are unapologetically sh__ting on the
late Lagerfeld's ashes by barbarically anglo-dumbing down and plagiarizing
the ten-year old French government's original vest legislation slogan,
"C'est jaune, c'est moche, ça ne va avec rien, mais ça peut sauver la vie."

Yes, speeding tickets and taxes spent into offering free weirdo
kranophiliac[1] posters! Let's just hope the ads won't get shot down by
SJWs before the full-sized prints actually become available.
https://www.runtervomgas.de/aktionsmaterial/poster.html
....
And, before you even hesitate to ask ... yes, unfortunately, some vividly
racist mind did spot the danger of color-blindly producing depictions of
just negroid models and the slogan, so the pocs get hidden a bit, but still
earn that campaign the coveted pc diversity approval stamp.
https://www.dvr.de/img/scroller/rvg_look_like.jpg

At least the Germans are being honest about the hats' appearances. I've
been around cyclists who bragged about the great looks of some bike
helmet or another.

Isn't it amazing what marketing can do to some people's sense of
aesthetics?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 17:00:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/26/2019 1:59 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote:


https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/l...look-like-sh-/

To be more exact, motor and insurance industry lobbyists, posing as
government and traffic safety councils, pay shallow models to state the
obvious. It seems fitting that they are unapologetically sh__ting on the
late Lagerfeld's ashes by barbarically anglo-dumbing down and plagiarizing
the ten-year old French government's original vest legislation slogan,
"C'est jaune, c'est moche, ça ne va avec rien, mais ça peut sauver la vie."

Yes, speeding tickets and taxes spent into offering free weirdo
kranophiliac[1] posters! Let's just hope the ads won't get shot down by
SJWs before the full-sized prints actually become available.
https://www.runtervomgas.de/aktionsmaterial/poster.html
...
And, before you even hesitate to ask ... yes, unfortunately, some vividly
racist mind did spot the danger of color-blindly producing depictions of
just negroid models and the slogan, so the pocs get hidden a bit, but still
earn that campaign the coveted pc diversity approval stamp.
https://www.dvr.de/img/scroller/rvg_look_like.jpg

At least the Germans are being honest about the hats' appearances. I've
been around cyclists who bragged about the great looks of some bike
helmet or another.

Isn't it amazing what marketing can do to some people's sense of
aesthetics?

My LBS has a mirror mounted in the "Helmet Department" and I
frequently see people intent on buying a helmet trying them on and
than looking in the mirror.

They also have a full length mirror in the changing room so that (I
guess) when you try on the new bike shorts or shirt you can see how
handsome you look :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 2:51:46 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 3/25/2019 3:01 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

But strangely no one seems to be particularly upset about the 37,133
highway deaths (2017) or at least I see nothing in the news that says
so.

You must have missed the mandates for airbags, safety glass, padded
dashboards, collapsible steering columns, back-up cameras, seat belts,
TPMS, etc. None of these will prevent 100% of deaths or injuries. But
each one has some effect, and don't add much cost to a vehicle once in
high volume production.

These safety devices aren't nearly as effective as enforcing speed limits which they do not do.

On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 12:57:41 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 10:59:10 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 3/26/2019 10:02 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:13:26 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 2:16:08 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:51:29 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

Whether cycling is dangerous depends on your environment.

Of course. The same can be said of walking, driving, swimming, etc.
Yet nobody calls for helmets for all walkers or drivers. Nobody calls
for water wings for all swimmers, even though it's per-hour fatality
rate dwarfs that of cycling.

With the crazy mix of transportation modes around here, I'm
surprised more people aren't getting injured, e.g.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/13999793819 Yes, as a
cyclist, you're supposed to ride up that cut into a bunch of people
waiting to get on a street car. The morning ride is a scrum
through the south waterfront.

And the motivation for such hideous segregated bike facilities? The
motivation is the false idea that riding on normal roads is terribly
dangerous.

Ooops. What I was going to say is that those curb cuts occur to
accommodate an island created for the street car. You could continue
straight, but the bike lane ends, and a lot of people are afraid of
crossing parallel train tracks to take the lane.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikepo...n/photostream/

Those timid cyclists probably lack this essential, triathlete-tested safety
equipment, now sold out almost everwhere due to enormous demand in rainy
regions...
http://www.fsc-graz.at/outlets-adidas-spezieller-stil-silicone-slogan-badekappe-blacksilver-met-cv7668-zs70932-p-37006.html


some questions defy simple solutions. There's always one (or
more) previously unconsidered factor(s):

https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/l...look-like-sh-/

To be more exact, motor and insurance industry lobbyists, posing as
government and traffic safety councils, pay shallow models to state the
obvious. It seems fitting that they are unapologetically sh__ting on the
late Lagerfeld's ashes by barbarically anglo-dumbing down and plagiarizing
the ten-year old French government's original vest legislation slogan,
"C'est jaune, c'est moche, ça ne va avec rien, mais ça peut sauver la vie."

Fight the power!

When I was young, the approach was different with car safety and seatbelts. In driver's ed, you had to watch those Ohio State Police films like "Wheels of Tragedy" and "Signal 30." Grainy, black and white footage from horrible traffic accidents. I still remember the scene where a PU driver got a 2" pipe through his head. Someone in the class was guaranteed to throw-up or pass-out. Aaah, the good old days. Now its selling safety products with sex. Hot models are far easier to watch than head wounds, although showing models may amount to body shaming or some other modern angsty insult to the lesser endowed. You never know what is going to be traumatic these days.

-- Jay Beattie.

Apparently legislators now think that air bags would save you from a pipe through the head.

On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 4:02:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 12:57:41 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 10:59:10 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 3/26/2019 10:02 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:13:26 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 2:16:08 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 3:51:29 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

Whether cycling is dangerous depends on your environment.

Of course. The same can be said of walking, driving, swimming, etc.
Yet nobody calls for helmets for all walkers or drivers. Nobody calls
for water wings for all swimmers, even though it's per-hour fatality
rate dwarfs that of cycling.

With the crazy mix of transportation modes around here, I'm
surprised more people aren't getting injured, e.g.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/13999793819 Yes, as a
cyclist, you're supposed to ride up that cut into a bunch of people
waiting to get on a street car. The morning ride is a scrum
through the south waterfront.

And the motivation for such hideous segregated bike facilities? The
motivation is the false idea that riding on normal roads is terribly
dangerous.

Ooops. What I was going to say is that those curb cuts occur to
accommodate an island created for the street car. You could continue
straight, but the bike lane ends, and a lot of people are afraid of
crossing parallel train tracks to take the lane.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikepo...n/photostream/

Those timid cyclists probably lack this essential, triathlete-tested safety
equipment, now sold out almost everwhere due to enormous demand in rainy
regions...
http://www.fsc-graz.at/outlets-adidas-spezieller-stil-silicone-slogan-badekappe-blacksilver-met-cv7668-zs70932-p-37006.html


some questions defy simple solutions. There's always one (or
more) previously unconsidered factor(s):

https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/l...look-like-sh-/

To be more exact, motor and insurance industry lobbyists, posing as
government and traffic safety councils, pay shallow models to state the
obvious. It seems fitting that they are unapologetically sh__ting on the
late Lagerfeld's ashes by barbarically anglo-dumbing down and plagiarizing
the ten-year old French government's original vest legislation slogan,
"C'est jaune, c'est moche, ça ne va avec rien, mais ça peut sauver la vie."

Fight the power!

When I was young, the approach was different with car safety and seatbelts. In driver's ed, you had to watch those Ohio State Police films like "Wheels of Tragedy" and "Signal 30." Grainy, black and white footage from horrible traffic accidents. I still remember the scene where a PU driver got a 2" pipe through his head. Someone in the class was guaranteed to throw-up or pass-out. Aaah, the good old days. Now its selling safety products with sex. Hot models are far easier to watch than head wounds, although showing models may amount to body shaming or some other modern angsty insult to the lesser endowed. You never know what is going to be traumatic these days.

-- Jay Beattie.

Apparently legislators now think that air bags would save you from a pipe through the head.

BTW, it was a pipe through the back of the head. In the movie, the guy was carrying a load of pipe, crashed into another car, and one of the pipes smashed through the little rear window on an old Ford PU or flatbed, IIRC. The aftermath was caught by the Ohio State Police on grainy black and white 16mm. It was inter-cut with a story line (cheesy acting, low production values, troopers in hats) so you could get the moral -- i.e., don't speed, don't drink and drive, don't fall asleep, etc., etc. Airbags would not have helped with that one.

Also BTW, I worked ambulance on HWY 17 between Los Gatos and Santa Cruz before the barrier walls and in the '70s when there were still a lot of metal dash rigid steering column cars on the road. Those things were like meat grinders. You were basically colliding with the inside of your car. Safety improvements in cars have made an incredible difference -- although my Subaru Takata airbags will apparently kill me. Most automobile safety improvements are a good thing.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tuesday, March 26, 2019 at 8:57:50 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

Also BTW, I worked ambulance on HWY 17 between Los Gatos and Santa Cruz before the barrier walls and in the '70s when there were still a lot of metal dash rigid steering column cars on the road. Those things were like meat grinders. You were basically colliding with the inside of your car. Safety improvements in cars have made an incredible difference -- although my Subaru Takata airbags will apparently kill me. Most automobile safety improvements are a good thing.

I agree, most auto safety improvements are a good thing. Stronger passenger
compartments, crumple zones, steering columns that are less likely to spear you,
removal of sharp objects in the dash area, safety glass, etc.

I have mixed feelings about air bags. When they were first proposed, I thought
the idea of an explosive safety device was nuts. And indeed, they did kill some
people of short stature in the early days. Now they've killed some more people
due to shrapnel. And I recall hearing (but not double checking) a statement on
a radio program saying that seat belts have been shown to be something like
40% effective or more at saving lives; but that air bags added only a few
percentage points to that.

I think the main benefit from air bags may have been to scare people into
actually using their seat belts. Cars now come with warnings behind the visors
explaining that your air bag can kill you if you don't have your seat belt
fastened. That probably motivates some people to buckle.

But they could have achieved the same result with a lot less expense if they
just fastened a big spike to the center of the steering wheel, pointed at the
driver's heart.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 01:03:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/25/2019 11:56 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 22:19:28 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/25/2019 8:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 14:57:37 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 3/25/2019 6:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 3:46:45 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

In 1994 there were 796 bicycle deaths in the U.S. In 2016 there were
835, in 1994 some 19 of the deaths were while wearing a helmet while
in 2016 137 of the deaths were while wearing a helmet. In percentages
there were some 4% more deaths in 2016 than in 1994, but, some 700%
more died while wearing a helmet.

This seems rather strange if helmets really do save lives.

Another illustration of incomplete numbers telling us nothing.

If they didn't use incomplete data then those opposed to the use of
helmets would have no data to use at all.

We don't even have the gross number of cyclists to come up with an
injury rate. By one local metric, the number of cyclists in Portland
increased almost seven-fold between 1994-2014. I'm not going to bother
looking up the national number.

No, you are required to look up all those numbers and present the
underlying studies.

I've tries a number of times to determine the actual number of people
in the U.S. that ride a bicycle and I find numbers which include
everyone that has ridden a bicycle once in the past year and a many
more numbers that appear to be nothing more than a wild guess. I also
note that if the number of riders is "estimated" by an bicycle
advocacy groups they are ,surprisingly, larger. The League of
American Wheelmen seems to say that there are 57 million bicyclists in
the U.S. while U.S. Census Bureau says that in the period some 786,000
rode a bike to work.

Now, it is obvious that many ride a bike as a recreation while a
lesser number are riding as a matter of basic transportation but can
the factor be 71 times greater (assuming that none of the
transportation riders ever ride for recreation).

I believe a factor of 71 is not impossible. I look at our local bike
club as an example. It's not a huge club, perhaps a couple hundred
members. But AFAIK, there are fewer than ten members who have ever used
a bike for regular commuting. There are probably only a few more who
routinely use a bike for other utility work, like shopping. For most
members, a bike is a recreation toy, nothing more.

My bike commuting was (locally) unusual enough that I've twice been the
subject of nearly full page articles, with big photos, in our metro area
newspaper.

I've also been interviewed on TV about bike commuting, once in this
metro area and another time in the state where I used to live and work.

Over here we do still have quite a number of people that ride a
bicycle to do the shopping generally in the local area. Quite
noticeable in Bangkok where it is flat and less notable in cities
"up-country" that may be a bit hilly.

I asked a Senor Sergeant of the Thai Police who lives in the next
house about bicycle deaths and he said something to the effect that
they are very few and I got the idea that the police may not pay much
attention to them as compared to the auto and motorcycle deaths they
seem negligible. I haven't seen actual statistics but one article
stated that of all road deaths 3% were bicycles. Given that small
motorcycles and autos amount to some 86% and pedestrians some 8%
bicyclists are the most unlikely to die on the roads of a country that
is second in the world (per capita) in road deaths.

IIRC, in the U.S. bike deaths are about 2% of total road deaths.

That doesn't stop the hand wringers. They sob that since bikers are
about 1% of road users, we are at terrible, terrible risk. We must wear
foam hats, ride only in garish-colored clothing, use bright lights day
or night, ride only in special lanes that are "protected" (AKA hidden)
by parked cars, etc.

Sorry for estimating percentages.

To a great extent Thai's assume that bad things happen because of bad
karma and if you give food to the Monks and go to the temple
occasionally that you will have generally good karma, thus no
accidents. As a result, accidents are generally blamed on someone
else, thus wearing a helmet isn't really necessary to be safe.

Of course, after I crashed and was in the hospital a month with a
broken pelvis my wife has pretty well decided that a Buddhist amulet
and feeding the Monks daily isn't enough and I need to wear a helmet.
Which having been a married man for 50 years, or so, I do as whether
or not it helps my head it certainly helps my ears as I don't get
nagged about safe riding :-)

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 22:19:28 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/25/2019 8:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 14:57:37 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 3/25/2019 6:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 3:46:45 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

In 1994 there were 796 bicycle deaths in the U.S. In 2016 there were
835, in 1994 some 19 of the deaths were while wearing a helmet while
in 2016 137 of the deaths were while wearing a helmet. In percentages
there were some 4% more deaths in 2016 than in 1994, but, some 700%
more died while wearing a helmet.

This seems rather strange if helmets really do save lives.

Another illustration of incomplete numbers telling us nothing.

If they didn't use incomplete data then those opposed to the use of
helmets would have no data to use at all.

We don't even have the gross number of cyclists to come up with an
injury rate. By one local metric, the number of cyclists in Portland
increased almost seven-fold between 1994-2014. I'm not going to bother
looking up the national number.

No, you are required to look up all those numbers and present the
underlying studies.

I've tries a number of times to determine the actual number of people
in the U.S. that ride a bicycle and I find numbers which include
everyone that has ridden a bicycle once in the past year and a many
more numbers that appear to be nothing more than a wild guess. I also
note that if the number of riders is "estimated" by an bicycle
advocacy groups they are ,surprisingly, larger. The League of
American Wheelmen seems to say that there are 57 million bicyclists in
the U.S. while U.S. Census Bureau says that in the period some 786,000
rode a bike to work.

Now, it is obvious that many ride a bike as a recreation while a
lesser number are riding as a matter of basic transportation but can
the factor be 71 times greater (assuming that none of the
transportation riders ever ride for recreation).

I believe a factor of 71 is not impossible. I look at our local bike
club as an example. It's not a huge club, perhaps a couple hundred
members. But AFAIK, there are fewer than ten members who have ever used
a bike for regular commuting. There are probably only a few more who
routinely use a bike for other utility work, like shopping. For most
members, a bike is a recreation toy, nothing more.

My bike commuting was (locally) unusual enough that I've twice been the
subject of nearly full page articles, with big photos, in our metro area
newspaper.

I've also been interviewed on TV about bike commuting, once in this
metro area and another time in the state where I used to live and work.

Over here we do still have quite a number of people that ride a
bicycle to do the shopping generally in the local area. Quite
noticeable in Bangkok where it is flat and less notable in cities
"up-country" that may be a bit hilly.

I asked a Senor Sergeant of the Thai Police who lives in the next
house about bicycle deaths and he said something to the effect that
they are very few and I got the idea that the police may not pay much
attention to them as compared to the auto and motorcycle deaths they
seem negligible. I haven't seen actual statistics but one article
stated that of all road deaths 3% were bicycles. Given that small
motorcycles and autos amount to some 86% and pedestrians some 8%
bicyclists are the most unlikely to die on the roads of a country that
is second in the world (per capita) in road deaths.
--


Unless 3% of road users were cyclists. Your stats don’t mean anything.



--
duane