California Legislator Proposes Mandatory Helmet Law for Adults.

On 3/18/2015 10:38 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, JoeRiel wrote:

100's of times? That is seems a miniscule figure it it were part of a
daily commute. From Jay's occasional description of the bad spots in
his commute, I got the impression that the speed differential is at
least 30mph. Anyhow, it is here, on the three-lanes (half of a divided
road) that is a bear to cross. Negotiation doesn't work real well; at
that speed difference you cannot make any eye contact, the driver, if
there is partial gap, is too far back. This weekend while returning
from the library with books and the market with 15 pounds of flour I
took the outside lane for more than a quarter mile, but the traffic
provided no gap to move further left (one annoyed pickup driver passed
me on the right, with the vehicle in the bike lane). Eventually gave up
and crossed at the light rather than from the left turn lane. When
hauling a load I usually avoid that stretch by going an extra mile (and
a couple hundred more feet of climbing), but thought the traffic might
be reasonable Saturday at noon. I think everyone was headed to the
beach, what with the 90F summer weather.

That's the problem with these threads: people are envisioning radically
different scenarios. There is no negotiation with a car 100 meters behind
you going 50mph. There is a gap; you judge the car's closing speed and
make
sure there is enough time for it to adjust to your taking the lane, you
signal and them move. Perhaps in slow-moving traffic there is more
negotiation,
but on the slower get-over spot coming home, I'm out of the saddle
sprinting
up hill, and all I see of on-coming motorists are headlights pointing up
hill
at me. 35% tint is legal in Oregon, so even during the day -- and assuming
my head swiveled like an owl's -- seeing drivers is not easy.
http://s3.photobucket.com/user/xedge...00203.jpg.html
The blacked-out illegal (but ubiquitous) Darth Vader monster trucks are
much worse.

Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising, but all of the above is covered in
vehicular cycling books and courses. Nobody claims a 12 mph cyclist
will (or should) negotiate his way left into a 50 mph unending stream of
traffic. But when speed differentials are much lower, including when
traffic is slowing approaching a red light, I've done the negotiating
thing hundreds of times. It's not much more complicated than deciding
who's going to allow whose grocery cart to go first in the store aisle.
It's pretty simple human interaction.

Regarding the word "negotiation": What would you use to describe "Do
you mind if I change into your lane in front of you?" "I don't mind,
here, I'll wave you in."


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 10:07:33 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/18/2015 10:38 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, JoeRiel wrote:

100's of times? That is seems a miniscule figure it it were part of a
daily commute. From Jay's occasional description of the bad spots in
his commute, I got the impression that the speed differential is at
least 30mph. Anyhow, it is here, on the three-lanes (half of a divided
road) that is a bear to cross. Negotiation doesn't work real well; at
that speed difference you cannot make any eye contact, the driver, if
there is partial gap, is too far back. This weekend while returning
from the library with books and the market with 15 pounds of flour I
took the outside lane for more than a quarter mile, but the traffic
provided no gap to move further left (one annoyed pickup driver passed
me on the right, with the vehicle in the bike lane). Eventually gave up
and crossed at the light rather than from the left turn lane. When
hauling a load I usually avoid that stretch by going an extra mile (and
a couple hundred more feet of climbing), but thought the traffic might
be reasonable Saturday at noon. I think everyone was headed to the
beach, what with the 90F summer weather.

That's the problem with these threads: people are envisioning radically
different scenarios. There is no negotiation with a car 100 meters behind
you going 50mph. There is a gap; you judge the car's closing speed and
make
sure there is enough time for it to adjust to your taking the lane, you
signal and them move. Perhaps in slow-moving traffic there is more
negotiation,
but on the slower get-over spot coming home, I'm out of the saddle
sprinting
up hill, and all I see of on-coming motorists are headlights pointing up
hill
at me. 35% tint is legal in Oregon, so even during the day -- and assuming
my head swiveled like an owl's -- seeing drivers is not easy.
http://s3.photobucket.com/user/xedge...00203.jpg.html
The blacked-out illegal (but ubiquitous) Darth Vader monster trucks are
much worse.

Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising, but all of the above is covered in
vehicular cycling books and courses. Nobody claims a 12 mph cyclist
will (or should) negotiate his way left into a 50 mph unending stream of
traffic. But when speed differentials are much lower, including when
traffic is slowing approaching a red light, I've done the negotiating
thing hundreds of times. It's not much more complicated than deciding
who's going to allow whose grocery cart to go first in the store aisle.
It's pretty simple human interaction.

Regarding the word "negotiation": What would you use to describe "Do
you mind if I change into your lane in front of you?" "I don't mind,
here, I'll wave you in."

Wishful thinking. I get waived across at 4-way stops (usually incorrectly by the car on the right who also stopped first). The best I can hope for at my cross-over is a car that slows a bit. I don't recall the last time a car waived me across fast moving traffic.

I did get waived across two lanes of 60+ mph traffic to take a left-hand exit off of Highway 17 once 30+ years ago -- by a CHP officer with his flashing lights on. He straddled traffic and waived me across. I was going probably 50mph, but not fast enough (long downhill). I thought I was going to get a ticket.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/18/2015 3:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 10:07:33 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Regarding the word "negotiation": What would you use to describe "Do
you mind if I change into your lane in front of you?" "I don't mind,
here, I'll wave you in."

Wishful thinking. I get waived across at 4-way stops (usually incorrectly
by the car on the right who also stopped first). The best I can hope
for at
my cross-over is a car that slows a bit. I don't recall the last time a car
waived me across fast moving traffic.

Motorists don't often wave, although some do. Most often, they do
"waive," as you put it, in that they waive their right of way to let me
over.

IOW, many times all they do is slow and stay back, making it clear that
they're allowing me to move into their lane. And that works just fine.

No, I don't do this with traffic moving at 50 mph. I'll admit, I only
rarely ride roads with really dense 50 mph traffic. When I've ridden 50
mph or faster roads, I've (almost) always done it when traffic was light
enough that there were gaps between packs of cars. I time my leftward
moves to take advantage of the gaps.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 18/03/15 22:27, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 18.03.2015 um 04:22 schrieb James:
On 18/03/15 03:04, jbeattie wrote:

It's exactly because I negotiate daily -- and for a living -- that I
mock the term. It's f****** stupid when applied to most interactions
on the road. I can't even see through the blacked-out windows to make
eye contact with drivers anymore. How does one negotiate with a
speeding black box? You take the lane in a safe manner and hope
people follow the rules.

Does your vehicle standards allow for the windscreen to be tinted
heavily? Our doesn't. Only the side windows can have a dark tint.

But regardless, if you cannot "read" the traffic flow and determine
driver intentions from their actions and reactions, you really have some
catching up to do.

It might be a surprise for you Americans, ...

I'm glad you didn't include me in the set.

--
JS

On 18/03/15 23:24, Duane wrote:
On 17/03/2015 11:22 PM, James wrote:
On 18/03/15 03:04, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 8:38:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 3/17/2015 10:28 AM, jbeattie wrote:
What I find precious is the terminology, like "negotiation":

"Negotiation

Negotiation is a technique for cyclists to safely traverse one or
more
lanes by merging in with the flow of other traffic. The basic
method is to negotiate for the use of the adjacent lane, move into
that lane, and then repeat the process for any additional lanes.
The cyclist moves only when there is a natural gap in motor traffic
to move into, or after someone slows down explicitly to allow them
to move over.

Yes. That's what I've done hundreds of times. It works. No, not
necessarily with every motorist; there are jerks out there in cars,
just like on bikes or on foot. But it's worked hundreds of times.

I'm amazed that a lawyer - a professional negotiator - mocks the
idea of negotiating.

It's exactly because I negotiate daily -- and for a living -- that I
mock the term. It's f****** stupid when applied to most interactions
on the road. I can't even see through the blacked-out windows to make
eye contact with drivers anymore. How does one negotiate with a
speeding black box? You take the lane in a safe manner and hope
people follow the rules.


Does your vehicle standards allow for the windscreen to be tinted
heavily? Our doesn't. Only the side windows can have a dark tint.

But regardless, if you cannot "read" the traffic flow and determine
driver intentions from their actions and reactions, you really have some
catching up to do.



What Jay describes seems normal to me. What catching up should he do?

Learn to read driver's intentions from the way they are driving. I
don't often get eye contact when I look over my shoulder and signal that
I want to change lanes or just move out and around an obstacle. But I
do see the car that was catching me quickly slow down to let me out -
just as Rolf described on the German autobarns.

If you can't make eye contact with the driver and if you signal or start
to change lanes and you can't tell that he's yielding you'd be an idiot
to move into that lane IMO.

Sure, so when, as I said in another reply, you see the "hood" (?) dip,
and speed of the vehicle approaching becoming the same as yours, move out.

I wouldn't use the word "negotiate" either
any more than I'd use the phrase "controlling the lane."


Whatever.

Funny story. I was leading a group ride to Melbourne from the outer
East suburbs one fine evening. We were going through a shopping
precinct where a lot of well to do but aged folks live. It's a two lane
each way road, with parallel parked cars and tram tracks down the centre
lanes.

http://goo.gl/maps/N2Iju

Anyhow, there was a break in the line of parked cars, so we had a lane
to ourselves. This Volvo in the lane to my right started to slow, and
had the right indicator on - but something about the movement of the
vehicle instinctively told me the driver actually intended to turn left
(across our path).

I slowed and let the car move ahead, and the driver turned left in front
of us, exactly as I'd predicted.

A policeman (I'll call him Fred) in the group who was at the back of the
bunch, was not impressed, and shouted words of encouragement at the
driver as we rode passed.

I said, "Geez, Fred, didn't you see that coming? Around here
especially, you have to expect that kind of thing."

As Peter Brock used to say, "Anticipate. Anticipate. Anticipate.", and
Master Yoda said to Luke, "Use the force".


This is what I'd calling defensive riding. Assume the other guy is
going to be a dickhead and be ready for it. It helps when instinct
kicks in.

I also call it mind reading ;-)

--
JS

James wrote:
On 18/03/15 23:24, Duane wrote:
On 17/03/2015 11:22 PM, James wrote:

snip
This is what I'd calling defensive riding. Assume the other guy is
going to be a dickhead and be ready for it. It helps when instinct
kicks in.

I also call it mind reading ;-)

Lol. But of course some might call it experience.

--
duane

On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 8:09:13 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 18/03/15 23:24, Duane wrote:
On 17/03/2015 11:22 PM, James wrote:
On 18/03/15 03:04, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 8:38:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 3/17/2015 10:28 AM, jbeattie wrote:
What I find precious is the terminology, like "negotiation":

"Negotiation

Negotiation is a technique for cyclists to safely traverse one or
more
lanes by merging in with the flow of other traffic. The basic
method is to negotiate for the use of the adjacent lane, move into
that lane, and then repeat the process for any additional lanes.
The cyclist moves only when there is a natural gap in motor traffic
to move into, or after someone slows down explicitly to allow them
to move over.

Yes. That's what I've done hundreds of times. It works. No, not
necessarily with every motorist; there are jerks out there in cars,
just like on bikes or on foot. But it's worked hundreds of times.

I'm amazed that a lawyer - a professional negotiator - mocks the
idea of negotiating.

It's exactly because I negotiate daily -- and for a living -- that I
mock the term. It's f****** stupid when applied to most interactions
on the road. I can't even see through the blacked-out windows to make
eye contact with drivers anymore. How does one negotiate with a
speeding black box? You take the lane in a safe manner and hope
people follow the rules.


Does your vehicle standards allow for the windscreen to be tinted
heavily? Our doesn't. Only the side windows can have a dark tint.

But regardless, if you cannot "read" the traffic flow and determine
driver intentions from their actions and reactions, you really have some
catching up to do.



What Jay describes seems normal to me. What catching up should he do?

Learn to read driver's intentions from the way they are driving. I
don't often get eye contact when I look over my shoulder and signal that
I want to change lanes or just move out and around an obstacle. But I
do see the car that was catching me quickly slow down to let me out -
just as Rolf described on the German autobarns.

Are you kidding? I've been racing, riding, commuting six days a week for 40+ years -- minus time off for broken legs -- year round, which counts for something in a wet climate. I've been reading cars and predicting driver (and rider) behavior for that entire period -- successfully, since I'm still alive. This is not rocket science, although we want to give it more heft and importance than it deserves so we can feel that we have some sort of magical knowledge. Everything we've discussed here is covered in the UVC and fairly rudimentary bicycling manuals, e.g. http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEP...ike_manual.pdf

Eye contact with drivers approaching from the rear is a rarity for a number of reasons and is far more important with entering traffic, although with window tinting, it's difficult making contact with anyone these days. The simple fix for me is to take the lane, pay attention and be visible.

If you can't make eye contact with the driver and if you signal or start
to change lanes and you can't tell that he's yielding you'd be an idiot
to move into that lane IMO.

I'm not making eye contact with a driver behind me any more than I make eye contact with a driver behind me when driving on the highway. I look, signal, judge closing speed, distance and all the other indicators -- which could include car type -- and make my move. And to be clear, I'm talking about a merge across lanes of fast moving traffic when I'm going about 30mph and cars are closing at 40-50mph. Bobbling around in slow moving traffic, I may make eye contact with a car behind me. Close quarters riding is a whole other thing -- and a different part of my commute. Dealing with buses also involves a different skill-set and a background in abnormal psychology.

Car traffic is also just one issue -- bike traffic is another, as are physical road conditions. It has been wet with lots of blow-down from windstorms.. More killer trees: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...e_crash_p.html

I also have to hit "marks" to trigger flashers -- and they're totally misplaced for a smooth merge. http://www.katu.com/news/local/New-b...?tab=video&c=y With the recent and dramatic increase in other riders, it's usually triggered anyway. Any way, simply dealing with traffic is only a piece of the puzzle.

-- Jay Beattie.

Today I negotiated with all the traffic in a small town between two and four pm in the afternoon, both on my bike and on foot as I ran a few months' worth of errands between banks, the pharmacist, the art store, the stationers, the bootmaker, the library, the post office, the hardware store, and so on.

There was no problem getting drivers to let me in, or to slow down so as not to run me over where I jaywalked.

But the law allows only a very light tint of automobile glass. You can look drivers in the eye, and I do all the time. It struck me that a law against mirror-glass is A Very Good Thing for cyclists and pedestrians.

Andre Jute
Negotiant de Bandon (we make only elderflower wine, but I like the sound of it)

http://s3.media.squarespace.com/prod...20/penguin.jpg

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 4:27:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
http://s3.media.squarespace.com/prod...20/penguin.jpg

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Thurber was from Ohio.

I see the CalGov is gonna supply drinking water to the thirsty. This is good.
One would hope there's no oil in it.

I can bring rain from the sky or over the Sierra's into the Owens valley. got witnesses.

Cal threw me out. More law enforcement and gangsters.

mindbuckling