Touring Bikes

In article ,
Andre Jute wrote:

Actually, a few years ago Andrew Muzi offered a bolt for bolt Indian copy o
f the Raleigh Tourer, rust on the water pipe tubing at no extra cost. Consi
derations of cost aside, especially multiple mailroder carriage charges, yo
u could buy one and builld it up by replacing components with quality goods
into a long-lasting, exact copy of the bike in Jay's ad. I was tempted eno
ugh by such a lark to cost it, with help from an accounting class borrowed
for three periods. It turned out, with diligent use of search engines, that
everything you need is available -- for a price. Of course, by the time yo
u sandblasted the frame. waxoiled and repainted it, and fitted up the good
components, your pseudo-vintage bike would cost more than your good Batavus
. I can't remember the numbers now -- as I say it was a lark turned itoo a
teaching tool to help out a sick pal -- but they weren't encouraging.

That doesn't totally surprise me, because they were (and are) very
useful and popular in places where the roads are more hole than
surface, and repairs need to be done by the local blacksmith.
I once rode one into the rear of a car, writing off its rear bumper,
and the frame bent slightly, but both I and the bicycle were
otherwise undamaged.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 2/20/2015 10:33 AM, jbeattie wrote:
For all those who complain about the lack of touring and adventure bikes, this link was in my e-mail in-box this morning. http://tinyurl.com/lkokqsb Bike Gallery is running a sale.

I'm ASTOUNDED, I say astounded at the lack of good touring bikes. Everyone wants to be a racer. It was so much better back in 1972! You buy a Schwinn Sports Tourer http://bikecatalogs.org/SCHWINN/1972...LL/1972_09.jpg
or a Raleigh Tourist! http://www.bikecatalogs.org/RALEIGH/...RALEIGH_16.jpg

I'd avoid the Trek 520 for several reasons. But Nashbar has a very good
touring bike and it was 20% off last week. Better frame and better
included rack than the Trek the though the fork isn't wonderful. At 20%
off it was only around $600. Better quality CroMo, a quill stem, a nicer
rack, and very good components for the price.

Whatever happened to a good rod-brake bike?

Right he
http://flyingpigeonla.myshopify.com/products/flying-pigeon-pa-02-classic.

I rode these in China. An amazing bicycle. You've never ridden anything
like that before. You'll tell all your friends about it. Unbelievable.

On 2/20/2015 12:25 PM, sms wrote:
On 2/20/2015 10:33 AM, jbeattie wrote:
For all those who complain about the lack of touring and adventure
bikes, this link was in my e-mail in-box this morning.
http://tinyurl.com/lkokqsb Bike Gallery is running a sale.

I'm ASTOUNDED, I say astounded at the lack of good touring bikes.
Everyone wants to be a racer. It was so much better back in 1972! You
buy a Schwinn Sports Tourer
http://bikecatalogs.org/SCHWINN/1972...LL/1972_09.jpg
or a Raleigh Tourist!
http://www.bikecatalogs.org/RALEIGH/...RALEIGH_16.jpg

I'd avoid the Trek 520 for several reasons. But Nashbar has a very good
touring bike and it was 20% off last week. Better frame and better
included rack than the Trek the though the fork isn't wonderful. At 20%
off it was only around $600. Better quality CroMo, a quill stem, a nicer
rack, and very good components for the price.

Whatever happened to a good rod-brake bike?

Right he
http://flyingpigeonla.myshopify.com/products/flying-pigeon-pa-02-classic.

I rode these in China. An amazing bicycle. You've never ridden anything
like that before. You'll tell all your friends about it. Unbelievable.

The first time I went to China it was on a bicycle tour. They provided
bicycles like the Flying Pigeon. One guy wanted to buy a new one to take
home but at the time the bicycles were rationed and there was no way he
could buy one. You still see these in China but bicycling has
dramatically decreased as the cities have put in expansive subway systems.

On 2015-02-20 12:25 PM, sms wrote:
On 2/20/2015 10:33 AM, jbeattie wrote:
For all those who complain about the lack of touring and adventure
bikes, this link was in my e-mail in-box this morning.
http://tinyurl.com/lkokqsb Bike Gallery is running a sale.

I'm ASTOUNDED, I say astounded at the lack of good touring bikes.
Everyone wants to be a racer. It was so much better back in 1972! You
buy a Schwinn Sports Tourer
http://bikecatalogs.org/SCHWINN/1972...LL/1972_09.jpg
or a Raleigh Tourist!
http://www.bikecatalogs.org/RALEIGH/...RALEIGH_16.jpg

I'd avoid the Trek 520 for several reasons. But Nashbar has a very good
touring bike and it was 20% off last week. Better frame and better
included rack than the Trek the though the fork isn't wonderful. At 20%
off it was only around $600. Better quality CroMo, a quill stem, a nicer
rack, and very good components for the price.


Looks like it's at $750 now:

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...24_-1___204734

Right after I got my custom road bike in the early 80's I equipped it
with a sturdy rack from Esge. That cost little but still affords me the
luxury to be able to bring even a major package to the Fedex depot 13
miles down in the valley. The rack included an adjustable dual rubber
"bungee-type" fastener which to my surprise is still good.


Whatever happened to a good rod-brake bike?

Right he
http://flyingpigeonla.myshopify.com/products/flying-pigeon-pa-02-classic.


Quote "Cottered cranks". Yuck! That is one of the sickest mechanical
concepts ever used on bicycles. I went through whole cartons of those
cotters in the 70's and 80's. Junk.


I rode these in China. An amazing bicycle. You've never ridden anything
like that before. You'll tell all your friends about it. Unbelievable.


I wouldn't want to have one. Not as long as they use cottered cranks.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

In article ,
Joerg wrote:

Whatever happened to a good rod-brake bike?

Right he
http://flyingpigeonla.myshopify.com/products/flying-pigeon-pa-02-classic.

Quote "Cottered cranks". Yuck! That is one of the sickest mechanical
concepts ever used on bicycles. I went through whole cartons of those
cotters in the 70's and 80's. Junk.

Nonsense. I agree that the ones you were talking about were,
but good cottered cranks were a LOT better than cotterless ones.
Inter alia, you did not need a special tool to remove them.

The keys were that (a) they had to fit properly and (b) be made
of an appropriate steel (nothing fancy, just not too soft).
Even the scrofulous ones sold in the period to which you refer
worked well enough if they were filed down to size before use.
But there were many made in the 1930s that were in use up to
the 1960s (yes, the same cotter pins!)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 12:30:50 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/20/2015 12:25 PM, sms wrote:
On 2/20/2015 10:33 AM, jbeattie wrote:
For all those who complain about the lack of touring and adventure
bikes, this link was in my e-mail in-box this morning.
http://tinyurl.com/lkokqsb Bike Gallery is running a sale.

I'm ASTOUNDED, I say astounded at the lack of good touring bikes.
Everyone wants to be a racer. It was so much better back in 1972! You
buy a Schwinn Sports Tourer
http://bikecatalogs.org/SCHWINN/1972...LL/1972_09.jpg
or a Raleigh Tourist!
http://www.bikecatalogs.org/RALEIGH/...RALEIGH_16.jpg

I'd avoid the Trek 520 for several reasons. But Nashbar has a very good
touring bike and it was 20% off last week. Better frame and better
included rack than the Trek the though the fork isn't wonderful. At 20%
off it was only around $600. Better quality CroMo, a quill stem, a nicer
rack, and very good components for the price.

Whatever happened to a good rod-brake bike?

Right he
http://flyingpigeonla.myshopify.com/products/flying-pigeon-pa-02-classic.

I rode these in China. An amazing bicycle. You've never ridden anything
like that before. You'll tell all your friends about it. Unbelievable.

The first time I went to China it was on a bicycle tour. They provided
bicycles like the Flying Pigeon. One guy wanted to buy a new one to take
home but at the time the bicycles were rationed and there was no way he
could buy one. You still see these in China but bicycling has
dramatically decreased as the cities have put in expansive subway systems..

My neighbor, bicycling buddy and industry-insider just returned from another trip to Nanjing, and he says that bicycling is dwindling to practically nothing because people are buying gas and electric scooters. There is still a segment of the society that rides bikes, but people with money are movin' on up. Side note: he went riding with the national amateur team, which was great fun (and work) for him.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2015-02-20 1:21 PM, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Joerg wrote:

Whatever happened to a good rod-brake bike?

Right he
http://flyingpigeonla.myshopify.com/products/flying-pigeon-pa-02-classic.

Quote "Cottered cranks". Yuck! That is one of the sickest mechanical
concepts ever used on bicycles. I went through whole cartons of those
cotters in the 70's and 80's. Junk.

Nonsense. I agree that the ones you were talking about were,
but good cottered cranks were a LOT better than cotterless ones.


No, absolutely not. See below.


Inter alia, you did not need a special tool to remove them.

The keys were that (a) they had to fit properly and (b) be made
of an appropriate steel (nothing fancy, just not too soft).


Yeah, yeah, that's all the stuff bike dealers told us in the 80's as
well. And then I said to one bike dealer, "Ok, hic Rhodus, hic salta.
Sell me cotters that will last". You should have seen his face when I
came back a couple months later with badly worn cotters. Same cotters he
had sold _and_ installed (because he was thinking I might install them
wrong).


Even the scrofulous ones sold in the period to which you refer
worked well enough if they were filed down to size before use.
But there were many made in the 1930s that were in use up to
the 1960s (yes, the same cotter pins!)


No matter which ones I wore all of them out. All. That whole cotter
crank concept is junk, a totally misguided design.

The cotter misery only stopped after I got my road bike with Shimano 600
gear, finally a company that understood how it's done right: No more
cotters. This very bike is in the garage right now, I use it constantly,
it is 35 years old, has tens of thousands of miles on it, still has the
1st set of cranks and _zero_ play in those cranks. Despite the fact that
due to non-mountain gearing in the cassette I ride many long hills
standing in the pedals.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2/20/2015 1:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 12:30:50 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/20/2015 12:25 PM, sms wrote:
On 2/20/2015 10:33 AM, jbeattie wrote:
For all those who complain about the lack of touring and adventure
bikes, this link was in my e-mail in-box this morning.
http://tinyurl.com/lkokqsb Bike Gallery is running a sale.

I'm ASTOUNDED, I say astounded at the lack of good touring bikes.
Everyone wants to be a racer. It was so much better back in 1972! You
buy a Schwinn Sports Tourer
http://bikecatalogs.org/SCHWINN/1972...LL/1972_09.jpg
or a Raleigh Tourist!
http://www.bikecatalogs.org/RALEIGH/...RALEIGH_16.jpg

I'd avoid the Trek 520 for several reasons. But Nashbar has a very good
touring bike and it was 20% off last week. Better frame and better
included rack than the Trek the though the fork isn't wonderful. At 20%
off it was only around $600. Better quality CroMo, a quill stem, a nicer
rack, and very good components for the price.

Whatever happened to a good rod-brake bike?

Right he
http://flyingpigeonla.myshopify.com/products/flying-pigeon-pa-02-classic.

I rode these in China. An amazing bicycle. You've never ridden anything
like that before. You'll tell all your friends about it. Unbelievable.

The first time I went to China it was on a bicycle tour. They provided
bicycles like the Flying Pigeon. One guy wanted to buy a new one to take
home but at the time the bicycles were rationed and there was no way he
could buy one. You still see these in China but bicycling has
dramatically decreased as the cities have put in expansive subway systems.

My neighbor, bicycling buddy and industry-insider just returned from another trip to Nanjing, and he says that bicycling is dwindling to practically nothing because people are buying gas and electric scooters. There is still a segment of the society that rides bikes, but people with money are movin' on up. Side note: he went riding with the national amateur team, which was great fun (and work) for him.

Yep. Between cars, scooters, and the subway, transportational cycling is
way down in China. The reason it's up in the U.S. is improved
infrastructure, traffic congestion, and the lack of comprehensive mass
transit except in a few cities like New York, Chicago, and San Francisco.

Taipei is another place where the subway transformed an awful city for
transport and pollution into a relatively pleasant place to visit.
Scooters have been big in Taiwan for as long as I have been going there,
but not a lot of transportational cycling.

I thought it was amusing that in Korea some of the freeway carpool lanes
only operate on weekends. During the week people take the subway, train,
or corporate bus to work, on the weekend they want to take road trips.

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 7:44:35 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/20/2015 1:23 PM, Andre Jute wrote:

...in England... In Germany... you can order up a touring bike to your heart's desire (within tube bounds and luddite backwardlooking attitudes, as I discovered when I tried to get a bike built to my own design) in steel, stainless of several kinds (not just the Reynolds), or titanium, from a variety of highly reputed builders (and at prices that makes th
e Waterford's makers sound like pirates).

Andre Jute
It depends where you look, and how hard, and how well informed you are


It does indeed depend on where one looks and how well
informed one might be. Regarding Waterford, it may also
depend on whether one is au courant.

Well, thank you for bringing me up to date, Andrew, though I, and everyone else was there already on 25 April 2009. See WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...TIP0%5B1-25%5D which includes considerable discussion of the Gunnar as well.

Consider their Gunnar Grand Tour:
http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/grand-tour/
which at $1050 in sizes to 68cm in a dozen colors is a
popular model.

Yes, let's consider it and try not to die laughing. That frame is welded. That alone makes it ugly when I was talking about lugged bikes. In the bigger sizes the Gunnar design is stunted in the rear triangle, a subject already illuminated by Chalo at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...TIP0%5B1-25%5D -- need I say that such disproportion is ugly too?

New let's check the pricelist, to which you supply a reference: http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/grand-tour/

Bare frame, US$1050, Rohloff frame ends and disc tags another 650 (! Jesus!), fork 375, non-specific upcharge ("Basic Charge for Special Orders") for even asking for these things 75 (!!!! [speechless]), rack mounts each 50 so call it at least another 400, eyelets for mudguards presumably the same, so call that another 400, yup, 800 for eyelets alone (!!!! rack eyelets extra on a touring bike? WTF?!!!!). Of course, you want your fork to match your bike, so painting the fork is another 125. And you'd like some simple coachlining on the tubes, at a masking charge of 75 per line, 16 lines at 75 each is 1200.

Total for a welded Waterford Gunnar frame, a bit stunted in the rear in the larger sizes, before you fit a single operational component: US$4225

You are joking, aren't you, Andrew?

Let's compare like with like:
Waterford Gunnar second rank frame (in Waterford lineup, by your own account), $4225
Utopia frame, with everything the optioned Gunnar frame has, and more, Euro 999 or $1300
https://www.utopia-velo.de/shop/ersatzteil-shop/

The even more interesting thing is that you can have a whole, proper, Rohloff-equipped, lugged-steel bicycle for much less than the price of the bare Gunnar frame

Gunnar frame ba $4225 or Euro 3247
Rohloff-equipped Utopia SilberMoewe Euro 2749
See https://www.utopia-velo.de/shop/velo-konfigurator/ and marvel. Tell me that, rather than a Gunnar bare frame, you wouldn't rather have a European Rolls-Royce of a bicycle with a Rolloff gearbox, and substantial money left over for another bike or luxurious fitting out.

And you want me to take Waterford seriously? I admire your salesmanship, pal, but I'm a rationalist. I don't mind spending money on my bike (I'm not dumb enough to spend it on little English sports cars!) but in return I want value, and Waterford, as I keep demonstrating, is a rip on the ignorant, the uninformed, and those who cannot be bothered to bring themselves au courant.

Here you may make yourself au courant with the proper price for a proper bicycle.
https://www.utopia-velo.de/shop/velo-konfigurator/
That's the top end. Anyone who charges more must give you a fully custom bike, built to your measurements from the ground up, fully scaled and adapted.. Waterford charges very much more for an off-the-rack bike.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/gunt9a.jpg

Nice from a distance. The details do not bear closer inspection. The price list is a sick joke.

If I could bear to ride a welded bike, I'd ride a Thorn, designed and built for tourers by tourers. You can get a whole one of those too, complete with Rohloff gears, for the price of a bare Gunnar frame, and have money left in your pocket. Sheldon rode a Thorn, for good reasons.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andre Jute
American industry did it to itself, and is still doing it

In article ,
Joerg wrote:

The keys were that (a) they had to fit properly and (b) be made
of an appropriate steel (nothing fancy, just not too soft).

Yeah, yeah, that's all the stuff bike dealers told us in the 80's as
well. And then I said to one bike dealer, "Ok, hic Rhodus, hic salta.
Sell me cotters that will last". You should have seen his face when I
came back a couple months later with badly worn cotters. Same cotters he
had sold _and_ installed (because he was thinking I might install them
wrong).

Your mistake. Never trust a dealer :-) Once I couldn't get decent
ones, I filed down and fitted them myself. They stopped selling
decent ones in the early 1970s.

Even the scrofulous ones sold in the period to which you refer
worked well enough if they were filed down to size before use.
But there were many made in the 1930s that were in use up to
the 1960s (yes, the same cotter pins!)

No matter which ones I wore all of them out. All. That whole cotter
crank concept is junk, a totally misguided design.

I got some years of use out of even poor ones, including very
hard use (over 80 Kg on the pedals on a regular basis). But you
REALLY had to do it right with the crap that was being sold in
the 1970s and later.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.