Black Friday Deals on Bicycle Lights

On 11/27/2016 6:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 17:52:27 -0800 (PST), DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
wrote:

need James or Lieb explain if the proprietary battery
is X more effective in a designed for system or if
this idea avoids the obvious that the prop like most
props yields more $$$

A non-removable battery solves a few problem and is most certainly
cheaper than a removable battery.

By making it non-removable, the following parts disappear:
1. Battery holder with springs. You can use welded tab batteries.
2. Tolerance space for odd side and swollen batteries.
3. Separation between battery compartment and PCB (printed circuit
board).
4. Battery cover and chronically broken hinge and latch.
5. Inventory of batteries as an "accessory".
6. Claims that the light doesn't meet runtime specs because someone
crammed in a low quality battery.
7. Protection circuitry for a battery inserted backwards.
8. Battery ID chip inside battery case (for counterfeit detection).
9. Battery short circuit protection and BMS (battery managment
system).

A non-removable battery also:
1. Allows for an internal charge controller.
2. Allows for a smaller case.
3. Allows the use of "flat" prismatic cells (similar to a smartphone)
instead of cylinderical 18650 type cells.
4. Allows the use of a coulomb counter to act as a fuel gauge.
5. Whatever else I forgot.

My guess(tm) is that bicycle light manufacturers will follow the lead
of cell phone makers and tie their warranty to the life of the
battery. If the calculated life of the battery is perhaps 5 years,
the manufacturer can safely offer a 3 year warranty and be fairly
certain that the battery will be mostly functional at the end of the
warranty period. This eliminates the need to replace the battery
during the warranty. After the warranty expires, the manufacturer or
vendor could care less. It's now eWaste. That's the down side of a
non-removable battery. The light could continue to be used long past
the end of the warranty period, but only if the owner is willing to
tear it apart and replace the battery. But, if you're NOT willing to
replace the non-removable battery, you're buying what might be a
limited life, throw-away product.

I'm pretty sure that you, like me, have replaced non-removable batteries
in a variety of devices from cordless power tools to electric razors, to
cordless soldering irons.



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I'm pretty sure that you, like me, have replaced non-removable batteries
in a variety of devices from cordless power tools to electric razors, to
cordless soldering irons.

no, avoid these devices as junk. Wenn.

eg, if the council has a factory producing lights, goes prop batts in device, then buys like Samsunk 1 gazzilion batts then daze stuck with 1 Gazz batts.

but the non prop device people allow further choices for ....better next batterations.

yes/no ?

the impossible....a secondary remote batt connection built in.

I have a PMD620 to Mineroff hydrophone rig with Curt trailer batt in Pelican n deck envelope.... forget getting the external DC to the PMD thru the PMD's connector. with Powerstream.

Why is this ? lack of protective circuitry suggests the Omni Lieb....

I hesitate. an expensive experiment but necessary operation.

Now what I need....I hear PS smiling ....is a PS inverter converting Curt to amphibious $90 PMD AC line unit to 620 .....

ahhhh **** ...............

On 2016-11-27 10:39, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 27, 2016 at 10:03:29 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-11-27 09:52, sms wrote:
The spousal unit insists on a better light for her commutes.
Three requirements: "all-in-one" (no separate battery pouch),
rechargeable, and brighter than the current 1000 lumen light (4C)
that she's using now.

I thought that this would be easy, but there's very little out
there with the battery not in a separate location.

I found two possibilities:

ITUO Wiz20. It uses two 18650 cells. $100.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DNWCUAO

Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL
http://www.masherz.com/products/lezyne/decadrive1500xxlheadlight.htm


$112 (25% off code).

Ordered her the latter. It actually would have been $11 less to
order it shipped from the UK, but I decided that it's better to
give the money to a U.S. bicycle shop, even if it isn't local.

Kind of disappointed that Lezyne moved to a non-swappable battery
with their latest generation.


I don't want to spoil the fun here but whether your wife will be
happy with it depends on how long she rides with lights. I ride
with the lights on all the time on my road bike and found that at
the full 1000 lumens a battery with four 18650 cells lasts around
2-2.5h. Since my rides are more like 4-5h I am going to swap the
MTB battery with the road bike one which will give me eight 18650
cells (which turned out to be overkill on the MTB). Got to make new
enclosures first though since I don't like things flopping about on
the frame.

You need 1000 lumens during the day?


On roads, yes.


... Why don't you just use a little
flasher or 250 lumen light or no light since you don't ride much
around traffic anyway.


I had that but found that flashing irritates some people. It definitely
irritates horses and I often meet horseback riders on my routes.


... I imagine that if you are doing 4-5 hours on
your road bike, a lot of that is out in boonies away from traffic.


Not always, depends on whether it is an errand dirt bikers. They don't
even have head lights on their machines and come at high speed. Since I
have 1000 lumens they see me instead of the other way around. I've had
several occasions where they were already stopped when I arrived. Still,
I think I can live with a battery that offers 30Wh of useful charge on
the MTB.

My road bike has to suffer bush roads at times even though it isn't a
cyclocross bike (but has a high-quality steel frame).


... I
did a couple hours this morning with a little flasher that I ran now
and then when I was in a high traffic areas, and it was raining or
near raining.


They work, I've had one until recently.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-11-27 15:05, sms wrote:
On 11/27/2016 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:

I don't want to spoil the fun here but whether your wife will be happy
with it depends on how long she rides with lights. I ride with the
lights on all the time on my road bike and found that at the full 1000
lumens a battery with four 18650 cells lasts around 2-2.5h. Since my
rides are more like 4-5h I am going to swap the MTB battery with the
road bike one which will give me eight 18650 cells (which turned out to
be overkill on the MTB). Got to make new enclosures first though since I
don't like things flopping about on the frame.

For her, it's about a 1 hour commute each way, and she can charge at
work. Should be about right for the Lezeyne. She only needs maximum
power on the totally unlit section of her ride along the San Tomas
Aquino trail.


1h is no problem. I found that USB re-charge is nice. My previous light
has re-chargeable Li-Ion the size of 18650 but the cap can be removed
and a USB plug shows up. Plugs into any contemporary computer and the
light ring on the battery turns from red to yellow when fully charged. I
always carried a spare though.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 11/27/2016 6:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

A non-removable battery also:
1. Allows for an internal charge controller.

There are lights (and many other devices) with internal charge
controllers that have removable batteries.

Ever since my Canon G2, I've preferred digital cameras with internal
charge controllers (though the batteries can also be charged externally).

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On 11/28/2016 7:59 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

1h is no problem. I found that USB re-charge is nice. My previous light
has re-chargeable Li-Ion the size of 18650 but the cap can be removed
and a USB plug shows up. Plugs into any contemporary computer and the
light ring on the battery turns from red to yellow when fully charged. I
always carried a spare though.

For the Lezyne it's best to use a higher current (2.1-2.4A) USB charger.
The USB ports on a computer are only guaranteed to put out 500mA, though
on most computers the over-current limit is set to 1000mA.

Lezyne sells a 2 amp charger
http://www.lezyne.com/product-led-acc-intl2ausbkit.php for about $20
in bicycle shops which is not gouging too much considering a 2.4A Micro
USB plug charger is $5.99 at Fry's http://frys.com/product/8862002 but
probably $15 in most parts of the country.

O.T.:
I had someone working for me at a motherboard company who left to get
her MBA at Cal Berkeley. She needed a keyboard for her computer and went
to a computer store in Berkeley which offered her a used keyboard for
$30. She said "$30 for a used keyboard!? I can get a new keyboard for
$15 at Fry's." The store owner's reply, "yes, but most people in
Berkeley don't know that."

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On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:20:15 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A non-removable battery can not be switiched out
on a very long ride in the dark.

I beg to differ. The various "soft power switch" devices I've dealt
with, which lack a proper DC on/off switch, draw very little current
when off or in standby. Just about every laptop is like that, with
power being applied only to the switching circuitry and where the full
DC power does not go through the tiny on/off push button.

A non-removable light can lose a fair bit of charge when it's
very cold outside.

You might be looking at it backwards. A LiIon battery has a very low
self discharge rate when cold, and looses more power when warm:
http://powerelectronics.com/mobile/designing-battery-packs-thermal-extremes
http://powerelectronics.com/site-files/powerelectronics.com/files/archive/powerelectronics.com/images/0606batterypacks-Figure04.jpg
Self discharge happens without any load, so a tiny amount of current
needed to run the on/off switch doesn't even show on the graphs.

What does happen is the battery looses capacity when cold:
http://images.slideplayer.com/16/4877973/slides/slide_13.jpg
When cold, the battery simply will not run the light as long as it
would if it were warm. Actually, that's not quite right because there
is no loss of available power. If you charge a battery at 25C, put it
in the cooler at 0C, raise it back to 25C, and then run a discharge
test, it will show the original 25C battery capacity. Nothing is
"lost" when cooling the battery.

An external b attery pack can be tuck up under one's jacket
to warm the battery and keep it runninh longer. It's what
I do in winter on lond rides in the dark.

Yep, that works to improve battery capacity. Running the light cold
is not a good idea, which would be a problem if the battery were
non-removable. I suppose I could add a small chemical heater to the
light assembly, but that would create additional problems.

Like everything, there are advantages and disadvantages that
need to be considered for each person's needs or wants.

Yep which is why I didn't offer a conclusion or definitive opinion.
Methinks the market can accommodate both types of battery systems
because everyone's use and environment will be different. What works
for one person, may not work for others. In my case, temperature is
not an issue as I'm a fair weather rider. For me, price is the major
consideration since I don't ride very often or need a headline on
every ride. I don't want to make the headlight an investment. Since
an internal battery is cheaper, that would be my preference.

I forgot to mumble something about the rider that forgets to charge
their battery before a ride. If the battery is non-replaceable, they
will need to wait until the charger is done charging. With
replaceable batteries, a spare charged battery would get them going
instantly. Unfortunately, I've had the opposite problem, where I plug
a set of half dead batteries into the light, thinking they were
charged. Half way into my ride, the lights go out.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/28/2016 10:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Incidentally, I gave up on battery powered soldering irons long ago.
They don't get hot enough for what I normally solder.

I had the Wahl Isotip. But with lead-free solder you need a hotter iron.

This Dremel butane model is pretty good:
http://www.frys.com/product/8871752.

Also, I've done
a few Makita cordless drill conversions from NiCd/NiMH to LiIon
batteries. The battery packs are small enough to fit inside the
battery compartment (with foam spacers). The LiIon battery is charged
externally, using an RC style balance charger. 18v systems works best
because that's exactly 5 LiIon cells. 12v is a problem, but works
acceptably with 4 cells (14.4v).

Li-Ion is supposed to be charged with 4.2V per cell to charge to 3.7V
per cell. We have a device at work with 3 cells and a 12V charger works,
but I can't imagine doing 4 cells with a 12V charger.


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On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 08:08:55 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/27/2016 6:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

A non-removable battery also:
1. Allows for an internal charge controller.

There are lights (and many other devices) with internal charge
controllers that have removable batteries.

Ever since my Canon G2, I've preferred digital cameras with internal
charge controllers (though the batteries can also be charged externally).

The trend seems to be towards external chargers, especially in the
tool business. The idea is that you buy two batteries. One battery
is on charge while the other is being used in the tools. My various
DeWalt tools are supplied with 2 batteries using that philosophy. I
have a similar system for some of my cameras and cell phones. I have
spare batteries and external chargers for each of them, even if they
are capable of internal charging. I find that things tend to work
better and last longer if I do the charging externally with a timed,
balanced, and monitored charger, than with a minimalist internal
charger.

My theory is that if an internal charger or battery management system
was provide with a non-removable light, the manufacturer would provide
a better quality charger, with a coulomb counting fuel gauge, that is
customized to properly charge only the attached battery. It may get
its power from an external automotive +12V source, but the actual
charging circuit is separate. In order to have the light and battery
survive the warranty period, the charger could need to be battery than
rudimentary. That would a little more difficult to do if the charge
history was reset every time the battery was removed from the light,
or when a different brand or chemistry cell was introduced.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2016-11-28 10:36, sms wrote:
On 11/28/2016 7:59 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

1h is no problem. I found that USB re-charge is nice. My previous light
has re-chargeable Li-Ion the size of 18650 but the cap can be removed
and a USB plug shows up. Plugs into any contemporary computer and the
light ring on the battery turns from red to yellow when fully charged. I
always carried a spare though.

For the Lezyne it's best to use a higher current (2.1-2.4A) USB charger.
The USB ports on a computer are only guaranteed to put out 500mA, though
on most computers the over-current limit is set to 1000mA.


That sounds like people didn't pay attention during the design review,
hoping they held at least one. My hand would have gone up immediately.
In this day and age it should be no problem to provide some "secret"
button-press sequence that switches the charge current from 2A to 400mA
or so and keeps it latched there until further notice. Usually that's a
no-cost feature except for a few engineering hours or NRE. Many people
will want to be able to just plug it into their workplace computer
instead of having to have yet another wall wart in the already cluttered
pencil drawer. Then you ride to another place and ... dang ... forgot to
bring that wall wart, can't charge, hopefully the meeting will be over
before it gets dark ...

Your wife would have to get two chargers or always schlepp the one back
and forth.

I also can't imagine repeated 2A charging being very healthy for a
Li-Ion cell of 18650 or similar size. Sometimes I wonder whether
engineers are always up to snuff. For example, many batteries are
default-charged to 4.2V cell voltage. Not always a good thing. I stop my
charge at 3.9V to 4V if the respective bike isn't going to be used a
while or 4.1V if the route isn't long. That can easily double the
service life. Right now I am doing that with a timer and a meter but
when I have more free time I am going to build a smart charger that lets
me dial in "fill levels". The set and forget kind.


Lezyne sells a 2 amp charger
http://www.lezyne.com/product-led-acc-intl2ausbkit.php for about $20
in bicycle shops which is not gouging too much considering a 2.4A Micro
USB plug charger is $5.99 at Fry's http://frys.com/product/8862002 but
probably $15 in most parts of the country.

O.T.:
I had someone working for me at a motherboard company who left to get
her MBA at Cal Berkeley. She needed a keyboard for her computer and went
to a computer store in Berkeley which offered her a used keyboard for
$30. She said "$30 for a used keyboard!? I can get a new keyboard for
$15 at Fry's." The store owner's reply, "yes, but most people in
Berkeley don't know that."


:-)

You'd also not know if it wasn't a previous customer return. I had too
many bad experiences and do not shop there anymore. Got a story there.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/