Rual America coming to save our cities

On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 09:15:14 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 14:40:55 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 22:57:40 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 21:43:07 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

http://www.twincities.com/2017/01/27...ke-lane-users/

It's not all of rural America. Just one idiot lawmaker.

Did you catch his logic for taxing bike lane users?
"Rep. Duane Quam, a Republican from Byron, said he wasn’t
out to make life difficult for bikers. Quam said he was
simply worried that a lack of education about biking laws
was making riders unsafe."

Besides his rather odd logic, he also doesn't know the correct term
for a bicycle rider (cyclist) and instead uses the term for a
motorcycle rider (biker).

Well, given that many reports indicate that numbers in the range of 40
- 50 percent of bicycle automobile collisions are the fault of the
cyclist perhaps he had a point.

Ok, so the permit|license|tax would generate some revenue, presumably
used for educational purposes. In the amounts that might be
considered reasonable, the best that could be done is support one or
two full time bicycle educators and maybe a pamphlet or two. That
assumes that the revenue would not be diverted for other purposes.

As proposed, the permit would only apply to urban areas in Minnesota,
which I guess explains why the headlines all call Duane Quam a "rural
lawmaker".

Enforcement of having a permit would be difficult, although the
revenue from fines could conceivably exceed the revenue from the
permits.

Oops, I'm late. Later...

To be honest I don't believe that it is education that is lacking. I
suspect, for example, that most people don't have to go to school in
order to figure that a red light means stop but yet I see bicyclists
riding through red lights.

Note that I didn't write "stop signs" which defuses the argument that
(perhaps) some cyclists can't read :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 5:29:55 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 12:15:32 -0500, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Tim McNamara:
http://www.twincities.com/2017/01/27...ke-lane-users/

"...while riders under 15 years old would be banned from using bike
lanes."

What? Is this guy on drugs?

Well, I don't know one way or the other. But note that his proposed law
only applies to bike lanes. Riders under 15 could ride on streets and
roadways without bike lanes.

I think the hidden agenda here is to eliminate bike lanes. We have a
number of really badly designed lanes that don't work all that well for
bikes and make the roads really bad for cars (e.g., reducing high volume
through streets from 4 lanes to 2, with bike lanes sandwiched between
thousands of rolling cars per day and on-street business parking- while
a perfectly nice quiet parallel street is just one block away. It's
nice riding down your bike lane dodging coffee shop customers and
sucking down carbon monoxide and PM2.5 particulates, with resentful
drivers getting hostile because they can remember the good old days
(last year) when they weren't stuck in a 40 block long traffic backup.

In my experience you don't need bike "lanes". All you need is a wide enough shoulder and the legal right to take a lane where there is no shoulder and STRONG enforcement of any motorist that threatens in any manner a bicyclist assuming his rights.

Bicycle lanes might even be a distraction generating in motorists the understanding that bicycles need to stay out of the motorist's way. There is no reason that a bicyclist should be afraid to ride on public roads. But the police DO NOT enforce laws that give bicyclists right of way except in most most egregious act and that usually involves a bicyclist being hit in an area where he plainly had right of way.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 17:21:48 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 1/30/2017 5:10 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 30, 2017 at 1:02:00 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/30/2017 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, January 29, 2017 at 10:57:45 PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jan 2017 21:43:07 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

http://www.twincities.com/2017/01/27...ke-lane-users/

It's not all of rural America. Just one idiot lawmaker.

Did you catch his logic for taxing bike lane users?
"Rep. Duane Quam, a Republican from Byron, said he wasn’t
out to make life difficult for bikers. Quam said he was
simply worried that a lack of education about biking laws
was making riders unsafe."

Besides his rather odd logic, he also doesn't know the correct term
for a bicycle rider (cyclist) and instead uses the term for a
motorcycle rider (biker).
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Is it just me or isn't the vast majority of bicycle accidents due to wrong way riding and running traffic control obstacles? In other words - a lack of either education or respect for why these regulations are in place?


Well, some of that. Then there are carbon forks...

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

The average age of bicyclists killed in crashes with motor vehicles continues to increase, climbing to 45 years old in 2014, up from 39 in 2004, 32 in 1998, and 24 in 1988.
88 percent of those killed were male.
71 percent of bicyclist fatalities occurred in urban areas.
20 percent of bicyclist fatalities occurred between 6 and 8:59 p.m.
19 percent of bicyclists killed had blood alcohol concentrations of 0.08 g/dL or higher.
In 35 percent of the crashes, either the driver or the bicyclist had blood alcohol concentrations of 0.08 g/dL or higher.
California (128), Florida (139), and Texas (50) lead the nation in the number of bicyclist fatalities.
Just two states, Rhode Island and Vermont, reported no fatalities in 2014.

Percentages of reasons for fatality reported as:

Hit by car 29
Fell 17
Roadway/walkway not in good repair 13
Rider error/not paying attention 13
Crashed/collision 7
Dog ran out 4


kidding aside. you are right. The industry recognizes that
our customer base is aging out fast. Not being replaced by
enough of the new generation, Portland notwithstanding.
Traffic deaths don't help an already gloomy long term outlook.


Just wait until "The Donald" raises the import duty on Chinese made
bicycles. Given that he talks about compensating for the low salaries
in these benighted countries - minimum salaries in Shanghai are less
than ten dollars a day while common labour makes about 10 dollars an
hour (in California) perhaps a 800 percent import duty will equalize
things :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Per Jeff Liebermann:
Of the near missed involving bicycles where I was driving the car,
it's almost always an unlit bicycle, with the rider wearing dark
clothes, and riding in a part of the road where I would not expect to
see a bicycle.

That rings true to me.

Couple years ago I had one contact (albeit minimal) with a vehicle and
one close call within two weeks of each other. The "Close Call" guy
actually chased men down to apologize profusely "Geeze, I just didn't
*see* you...."

Then I realized that I had been wearing olive drab pants and a dark
shirt in both cases. Now I always wear a red shirt.


I do my share of wrong-way riding, but it's always at a jogger's pace or
slower and always with the assumption that nobody sees me. It's not
even remotely fair to expect a driver to expect a bike coming at him
from the wrong side at an intersection.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 6:01:12 AM UTC-8, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Jeff Liebermann:
Of the near missed involving bicycles where I was driving the car,
it's almost always an unlit bicycle, with the rider wearing dark
clothes, and riding in a part of the road where I would not expect to
see a bicycle.

That rings true to me.

Couple years ago I had one contact (albeit minimal) with a vehicle and
one close call within two weeks of each other. The "Close Call" guy
actually chased men down to apologize profusely "Geeze, I just didn't
*see* you...."

Then I realized that I had been wearing olive drab pants and a dark
shirt in both cases. Now I always wear a red shirt.


I do my share of wrong-way riding, but it's always at a jogger's pace or
slower and always with the assumption that nobody sees me. It's not
even remotely fair to expect a driver to expect a bike coming at him
from the wrong side at an intersection.

Another problem is that cars are now designed with more blind spots. B-pillars are giant, windows are often smaller or higher (e.g. in hatchbacks). My 1987 Subaru wagon was like driving a fish bowl. That is not the case with my 2012 version.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 1/31/2017 9:04 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 6:01:12 AM UTC-8, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Jeff Liebermann:
Of the near missed involving bicycles where I was driving the car,
it's almost always an unlit bicycle, with the rider wearing dark
clothes, and riding in a part of the road where I would not expect to
see a bicycle.

That rings true to me.

Couple years ago I had one contact (albeit minimal) with a vehicle and
one close call within two weeks of each other. The "Close Call" guy
actually chased men down to apologize profusely "Geeze, I just didn't
*see* you...."

Then I realized that I had been wearing olive drab pants and a dark
shirt in both cases. Now I always wear a red shirt.


I do my share of wrong-way riding, but it's always at a jogger's pace or
slower and always with the assumption that nobody sees me. It's not
even remotely fair to expect a driver to expect a bike coming at him
from the wrong side at an intersection.

Another problem is that cars are now designed with more blind spots. B-pillars are giant, windows are often smaller or higher (e.g. in hatchbacks). My 1987 Subaru wagon was like driving a fish bowl. That is not the case with my 2012 version.

-- Jay Beattie.


What could go wrong with that?

http://www.cityofmadison.com/police/...t.cfm?id=18661

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/30/2017 9:33 PM, wrote:


In my experience you don't need bike "lanes". All you need is a wide enough shoulder and the legal right to take a lane where there is no shoulder and STRONG enforcement of any motorist that threatens in any manner a bicyclist assuming his rights.

Agreed!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/30/2017 12:15 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


Ok, so the permit|license|tax would generate some revenue, presumably
used for educational purposes. In the amounts that might be
considered reasonable, the best that could be done is support one or
two full time bicycle educators and maybe a pamphlet or two. That
assumes that the revenue would not be diverted for other purposes.

Vaguely related: A few years ago, the Ohio Bicycle Federation got the
state to produce a special "Share the Road" license plate*, which cost a
few bucks extra. The deal was, the extra money would be used to fund
distribution of John Allen's excellent _Street Smarts_ booklet.
http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/

That worked for a couple years. Then someone at ODOT decided it was
cheaper to use their own booklet. Over OBF objections, they got some
ODOT staffer to start writing a replacement booklet. It was definitely
inferior. And adding to the mess, large chunks of it were obviously
plagiarized from John Allen's booklet. John Allen had to tell them to
cease and desist.

ODOT still publishes the inferior booklet. OBF still tries to get
control and go back to _Street Smarts_. But this certainly is an
example of the bureaucrats grabbing the money and doing what they want.

(*BTW, that was before people realized that "Share the Road" is MUCH
less effective than "Bicycles May Use Full Lane.")


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/30/2017 5:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 09:46:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:
Is it just me or isn't the vast majority of bicycle accidents
due to wrong way riding and running traffic control obstacles?

Since I don't keep score, I can only confess to my own contribution to
the bicycle accident statistics. I was driving on the wrong side of
the road when I was clobbered by a dentist and his Pontiac running a
stop sign. The CHP delivered my wrong way ticket while I was still
strapped to a backboard in the emergency room. I forgot to ask if the
dentist had been cited for running the stop sign. To maximize the
damage, my medical insurance carrier refused to pay my ER bill without
offering a reason. No re-education required. The ticket was
sufficient.

Of the near missed involving bicycles where I was driving the car,
it's almost always an unlit bicycle, with the rider wearing dark
clothes, and riding in a part of the road where I would not expect to
see a bicycle. About 2 weeks ago, it was a rider weaving his way down
the center divider. Most of these riders are homeless riding stolen
bicycles. They can't afford proper lighting and their clothes reflect
their desire to remain invisible.

Of the 3 people I knew that have died while riding their bicycles, all
were hit by drunk drivers.

In other words - a lack of either education or respect for why
these regulations are in place?

I don't see how a lack of education or respect for the law is somehow
related to getting injured on a bicycle. I'm overly careful while
riding, possibly to the point of paranoia. Yet, almost every ride in
traffic involves close calls and near misses, where the fault would be
difficult to determine, and where no amount of education would prevent
an accident. I don't think any of these close calls and near misses
were the result of either the driver or bicycle rider educational
deficiencies or lack of respect for the law. Most commonly, it's not
paying attention, distracted driving, really awful reaction time,
overly aggressive behavior, or falling asleep at the wheel. Todays
winner was a lady making a right turn directly into my path while
looking every direction except the direction her vehicle was
traveling. To her credit, she was able to stop before rear-ending me.

With all due respect, if "almost every ride in traffic involves close
calls and near misses," you're doing something very wrong. Seriously.

It's very, very common for people to think they know all that can be
known about riding in traffic - or riding anywhere, for that matter.
But invariably, when someone actually takes a class like this
http://cyclingsavvy.org/
they remark about how much easier it is to handle traffic, how their
close calls have vanished, how they wish they'd known this stuff
earlier, etc. There's no question that people using the relevant
techniques have far, far fewer problems than other cyclists.

FWIW, I took my first class back in the early 1980s, IIRC. They then
asked me to become certified as an instructor, and I taught quite a few
classes. Despite that, I took a Cycling Savvy class just a few years
ago and _still_ learned stuff that was new and valuable.

We should talk about your specific incidents.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/31/2017 9:01 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:


I do my share of wrong-way riding...

!!??

Why??

It's not
even remotely fair to expect a driver to expect a bike coming at him
from the wrong side at an intersection.

Well, I certainly agree with that!

--
- Frank Krygowski