The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

Sandy wrote:
Can we let it drop,
and maybe he'll get more creative. Or disappear. I don't see his posts any
longer, unless others repeat and answer them.

Just a nudge toward a workable, easy solution. I've got kids in the
house and am used to abuse g.

(quiet thud, sound of steps backing off a few paces). --D-y

Jasper Janssen writes:

That part is hardened, and was made by Campagnolo, while the
stays are not.

And you're wrong about the method of construction. The forged
dropouts are forged in one piece. They are brazed into the frame.
There is normally no welding involved. And they are not hardened.

You saying forging doesn't harden steel?

No, it doesn't. Forging does things to the steel that cause it to
be harder, but it doesn't harden it.

We've been through this too often. The term hardening is a misnomer
similar to chain stretch. In its primary sense, hardness is the
elasticity of the substance and that remains unchanged. The modulus
of elasticity of carpentry nails and HS drills is the same while yield
strength is vastly different, the stress at which they take a set when
bent. Alloying, work hardening, and heat treatment all affect the
yield stress but not the modulus of elasticity.

Probably the main reason it was called hardness is that a "hardened"
punch can but a dimple in a steel sample that has not been "hardened".
Beyond that, the lossiness of the sample changes with "hardening" so
that a nail makes a clunk when struck while a HS Drill rings.

All this has little bearing on the subject at hand because the
dropouts are not "hardened" and yield as easily as steel tubes to
which they are attached, that are also not treated, heat or otherwise.

Jobst Brandt

RonSonic wrote:
If he produced a design that was rugged, light and economical to produce (the
holy trinity of bike engineering) and found that while freewheeling there was a
small and benign runout, why would he change it.

It's not small.

We're talking 2 mm of wobble.

That looks like it's either "something wrong" or a
deliberate insertion of eccentricity.

The aesthetic pleasure of such perfection will be trumped immediately by the
reliable, light, cheap triumvirate.

I need science, here, not portmanteau economics.

--Blair
"I'll save that for axle width."

Ed Sullivan wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
Ed Sullivan wrote:
Dear Blair P. Houghton

Go away and never come back.

Thanks,

Ed

You're already dead, Ed.
"And your show was overrated."


Dear Blair P. Houghton,

I live in the hearts and memories of millions.

So do Adolph Hitler and Mike Godwin.

--Blair
"This thread's overness is
now self-referential."

Rick wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
Dennis P. Harris wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:14:27 GMT in rec.bicycles.tech, Blair P.
Houghton wrote:

You say it's easy, why don't you pony up and indemnify the
process against any sort of mechanical error for the $20k
or so this frame is really worth to me.

oh, bullpucky. no frame is worth that much, and you're just
obsessive. PLONK.

I work about 100 feet from a guy who paid $3 million for
a baseball he never hit himself.

There are only two reasons one pays $3M for a baseball:

1) bragging rights
2) they think they can sell it for more in the future

Neither of these apply to your bike frame. Realistically, your frame
is worth hundreds, not thousands. No one will pay for your sentiment,
no insurance will indemnify for it either.

Only two reasons. You don't understand the economics of
irrational actors nearly as much as you think. Get a copy
of Greg Mankiw's treatise on it and study up.

Conversely, in the right context, no frame is worth the
price of postage.

Wrong. I shipped a frame/fork to Colorado (from California) at the
beginning of the summer. $16. The frame was certainly worth more than
$16.

I don't want that frame. You'd have to pay the postage
to ship it to me.

--Blair
"In the right context, he repeated..."

Rick wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
StaceyJ wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:

---snipping Blair's concerns---

Ok. Simple solution. Ditch the Neuvations. Look for a pair of NOS 7
speed freehubs (E-bay has tons). These will be 126mm spacing. Have a

Some will. Not many mention 126mm in the ads, and those
that do aren't NOS, they're recycled. And 36 spokes...

And what is the problem with 36 spokes? Or older hubs? I have a

We're going aero here. Older hubs would be fine. But I want
to use the spokes and rim from this Neuvation I now have.

24 hole rim == constraint = 24-hole hub.

Hard to find those in NOS.

But if I could, I would.

It'd be nice to keep the Neuvation rim and spokes (they're
all aero) and find a compatible hub. But how many 24-spoke,
126-mm hubs are there?

What's the obsession with those rims and spokes?

It's not an obsession. It's an economization and a desire
to try them out. If I could trade them straight up for something
similar, I might.

And 24 spokes is a recipe for problems at some point.
PLONK, and then the wheel has a major wobble and you are
consigned to carrying the bike home.

That could happen with any spoke count.

And I'm using the 20-spoke front wheel I got.

--Blair
"Maybe I need alloy dubs..."

wrote:
Blair P. Houghton wrote:

Or I could tell you to take your bad attitude about a simple
problem and shove it up your ass. But then I'd have a bad
attitude about a simple problem. But then it'd be your fault.

So shove it up your ass.

--Blair
"Thanks for the moral authority."

Let's see. I, and several others, some with volumes of experience,

Appeal to popularity; argumentum ad verecundiam;

offered you some advice that follows accepted practices; advice you

post hoc ergo propter hoc;

asked for to start out with. You didn't know what to do in the first

false cause*;

* (i asked for advice, got some in an area i did not want
to pursue, asked for different advice, and some people
persisted in giving the advice in the area i had rejected;
others began berating me for rejecting it, though i'd done
nothing antisocial in the process of rejecting it, simply
stating that i preferred a different solution)

place. You didn't know how the DO's were attached to the frame, you

nit;

*(care to define weld and braze without reference to melted
metal?)

thought the Campy DO's were "hardened", and you seemed to think that

false presumption*;

(they are hardened by forging)

the posters would suggest a risky procedure (given a sound frame). You

true enough*;

* (what's riskier; bending a frame or getting an axle that fit?)

bragged about being able to curl 70lbs with each hand, yet seemed to
have problems getting the stays spread a quarter of an inch to put that
wheel in there.

failure to pay attention*;

* (i bragged about curling 70 lbs with each hand in order to
show that i'm not kidding when i say the frame is stiffer than
i expected it to be)

You ordered that rear wheel without aparently knowing
about spacing issues,

failure to pay attention*;

* (i admitted in the original post that i had somehow
measured my rear dropout spacing wrong mm before i even
started looking at buying a new rear wheel)

and then went wandering through the parts dept.
looking for axles, spacers, cogs that would solve your problem, instead
of doing as Jobst Brandt said, which would have taken maybe 15 minutes,

argumentum ad verecundiam;

or taken the frame to a pro shop for a (possibly more accurate)
alignment with the "tip tools" that I supplied a "picture story" link
to, since you didn't seem to have any familiarity with the subject at
hand.

false presumption*;

* (if i'm not willing to bend the stays, am i willing to bend
the dropouts even more?)

The problem, and the "bad attitude" is that you, even apparently
lacking *any* knowledge about cold setting or DO alignment, didn't hear
what you wanted to hear.

I said that I didn't want to hear that the first time
someone said "bend the frame." And I said it politely.

Others apparently didn't hear what they wanted to hear
from me. They insisted I bend the frame, rather than
using their massive experience to suggest the rest of the
possible solutions. Someone got testy, and I responded
in kind. Welcome to the Internet. Is that your ass on
the floor? No, don't get up; I'll hand it back to you.

Got any more clever comebacks?

You mean besides a whole stack of annotations of your fallacious
reasoning?

Riding that bike yet? --TP

Been riding it the whole time. The old rear wheel wasn't
broken. The old front wheel just had a spoke-hole rivet
sliding around on one spoke. The only degradation in my
riding experience is that I can't fit the sending ring
for my Avocet 30 computer onto the funky non-round front
hub without doing some creative zip-tying.

But I'm in the market for a computer anyway, so when I get
into a bike-part buying mood again (got a couple of other
priorities at the moment) I'll probably solve that.

Without your help, I'd bet.

--Blair
"I'd pay off that bet win or lose
if you'd promise not to make me
laugh this hard ever again."

"Blair P. Houghton" wrote in message
...
Rick wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
StaceyJ wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:

---snipping Blair's concerns---

Ok. Simple solution. Ditch the Neuvations. Look for a pair of NOS 7
speed freehubs (E-bay has tons). These will be 126mm spacing. Have a

Some will. Not many mention 126mm in the ads, and those
that do aren't NOS, they're recycled. And 36 spokes...

And what is the problem with 36 spokes? Or older hubs? I have a

We're going aero here. Older hubs would be fine. But I want
to use the spokes and rim from this Neuvation I now have.

24 hole rim == constraint = 24-hole hub.

Hard to find those in NOS.

But if I could, I would.

It'd be nice to keep the Neuvation rim and spokes (they're
all aero) and find a compatible hub. But how many 24-spoke,
126-mm hubs are there?

What's the obsession with those rims and spokes?

It's not an obsession. It's an economization and a desire
to try them out. If I could trade them straight up for something
similar, I might.

And 24 spokes is a recipe for problems at some point.
PLONK, and then the wheel has a major wobble and you are
consigned to carrying the bike home.

That could happen with any spoke count.

And I'm using the 20-spoke front wheel I got.

--Blair
"Maybe I need alloy dubs..."


When I upgraded my older bike I had to get new wheels. These wheels are low
spoke count and fairly light. I have to say that I did not notice that much of
a difference while riding compared to my 25 year old 36 spoke wheels. You may
find that solving your wheel problem may end up not being worth it. By the way,
when I spread the stays on my bike it only took five minutes with a wood working
spreader clamp. It's only about 3/16 of an inch.

Neal

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 05:44:05 GMT Blair P. Houghton wrote:

Jim Adney wrote:
If you care to stop by sometime, I have a supply of Campy 1010s,
1010As, and 1010Bs which I'll let you take a file to. None of them are
hardened. Not the verticals, either.

You saying forging doesn't harden steel?

That's correct.

Forging certainly improves other properties, but it doesn't harden.

The proof is in the finished object. If you take a file to a hardened
piece of steel it will not dig in but will just slide across the
surface. If you take a file to a dropout the file will readily dig in.

This is a fairly standard test, and a lot of machinists will keep a
small file in their pocket just to test material they're about to work
with.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
wrote:
Blair P. Houghton wrote:
That part is hardened, and was made by Campagnolo,
while the stays are not.

And you're wrong about the method of construction. The forged dropouts
are forged in one piece. They are brazed into the frame. There is
normally no welding involved. And they are not hardened.

You saying forging doesn't harden steel?

--Blair
"News to the steel."

Forging doesn't harden steel. Or, more specifically, as it's usually
done, forging doesn't harden steel to any practical degree.

Others have described the common "file test" for steel parts. Steels
that are hardened to any practical degree won't be easily cut by a
file. Try a good file on your dropouts. My bet is a file will readily
cut into them.

I've heard of dropouts that had (IIRC) stainless steel faces brazed on
to the surfaces that the QR clamps, but this is a fancy-pants custom
frame builder's tiny detail trick. I suppose Holdsworth _could_ have
done this, but I doubt it.

So, again: And you're wrong about the method of construction. The
forged dropouts are forged in one piece. They are brazed into the
frame. There is normally no welding involved. And they are not
hardened.

But again, what you do with your bike is up to you.

- Frank Krygowski