The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:14:27 GMT, Blair P. Houghton wrote:
I've got plenty of experience with mechanicals. Enough to
know these two significant things: when you stress old
metal, it doesn't behave the way new metal does;

If you genuinely believe that this old bike is so fragile that
putting a 5mm wider rear hub is a significant risk, I'd imagine you
should be concerned about the safety of even riding it...

1. It's designed to be ridden, not stretched.

2. I did, until I was under 200 lbs.

3. That's a risk I'm willing to take. Pulling it sideways
and hoping it bends the right amount in two precise places
instead of the wrong amount in one wrong place is not.

--Blair
"This is why we can never have nice things."

wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:


I've got plenty of experience with mechanicals. Enough to
know these two significant things: when you stress old
metal, it doesn't behave the way new metal does;

Sorry, I disagree, unless there's something special going on, like
severe corrosion.

20 years of stress and release will change a crystalline
matrix (and yes, all solids are crystals, just some
aren't pure and regular). Welds and brazings weaken.

And applying any new, untested stress invokes the concept
of infant mortality.

You don't put a safety system into use in a situation in
which it hasn't been certified. Unless you don't care
about safety any more.

you can't
bend two pieces of metal exactly the same, and the two sides
of the rear triangle are two pieces of metal that need to
be bent exactly the same.

Here's how I did it last time (just a couple months ago): The bike was
a beautiful old Trek touring bike, Reynolds 531, in perfect condition.
I was doing some work on it for a friend, and found the bike shop
hadn't respaced the frame to fit the new hub.

I phoned the owner, explained the problem and said "Do you want me to
fix it?" She said yes. I left the bike in the workstand, got two
blocks of wood and one longer two-by-four, used the two-by-four to pry
the dropouts further apart by putting pressure on the wood blocks. I
used trial and error to get the exact 130mm spacing.

The force was applied evenly and simultaneously to the inside of both
dropouts. The frame passed a quick string alignment check, and the
frame rode perfectly straight when it was all done. It all took 15
minutes or less.

Nice job.

Anecdotal, though.

If you used the one side as the spring to deflect the
other side then no actual attempt was made to ensure even
deflection, so you got lucky.

To do it for certain you'd need to do each side separately.

How far did you have to push the dropouts past 130mm to get
them to spring back to 130mm?

(BTW, not to be a snob, but, no Trek is a Holdsworth.
I'd sooner bend a Serotta than my frame. I could replace
a custom Serotta. I could replace a stock Holdsworth -
I know of a source of NOS - but it'd have to be modded...)

There's also the fact that we're talking about one kind of
metal encased in another (the Campy lugs ...

Was that supposed to be dropouts?

I'm not confusing frame lugs with dropout lugs, if that's
what you mean.

The dropouts themselves are Campagnolo-made hardened lugs
that Holdsworth welded to the Reynolds tubing. Standard
equipment, AFAIK. But then, so was a full Campy groupo
I wish I had back. I saved the seat-post nut, though.

... are hardened and
the surrounding material is not) and once the stays are
widened the lug area has to be realigned, which threatens
to split the join between these dissimilar metals.

I don't know about any differences between Campy dropouts and Trek
dropouts, but there was absolutely no problem realigning the Trek
dropoouts, or the ones on my old Raleigh when I did this, or any other
bike I know of. Besides, I doubt the brazed area of a dropout would be
hardened after brazing. You're probably getting it thoroughly annealed
as you're brazing it.

Really. Seriously. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Nope. No more than you'd do dental surgery on your
own daughter just to make her teeth look like Jessica
Simpson's.

But if you really like your mountain, you're free to keep it. Nobody's
forcing you to perform an easy fix for an irritating problem.

That's an attitude I wish more people would get.

--Blair
"It's easy in theory."

41 wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
my Holdsworth.

I see the following relevant points:

1. A large body of practical experience says you should be able to
spread the frame no problem, if you do it carefully as described.

I'd agree if I agreed with the "no" part of that. Problems
can occur. I don't want to go near them.

2. It's your Holdsworth and your hub, for you to do as you determine
and to take responsibility for. I object to anyone ordering you around
and telling you what to do, instead of merely explaining or even
insisting what you can do without problem.

Thank you.

3. Isn't replacing an axle less strenuous than spreading a frame?
Assuming everything else fits.

Not really. Spreading a frame could be as simple as laying
the frame on its side, standing on one lug, and tugging
the other one up. Replacing an axle needs wrench, or three.

4. What's wrong with an original five, or was it six or seven, speed
freewheel with no change? You have a classic Holdsworth, why not leave
it with the original configuration on classic wheels and sell the new
ones on eBay? I don't see any advantage to a modern wheel with its
extreme dish. Who needs so many gears? Who needs so much aero, unless
you are racing? The weight need not be any better..

I'm considering the smaller rear cog setup, but I do need
a new wheel no matter what. My Mavics are starting to
spring parts.

"Aero" wasn't so important, but it was only a few bucks
more than the standard Neuvations, which are inexpensive
to start.

And the new cassette wasn't that expensive. I was thinking
of selling the wheel with the tire, tube, and cassette
already installed, since, well, I already installed them.
I couldn't test the rear wheel, but I've ridden the
front one (700C front and 27" rear...a little squirrelly,
noticeably different handling after so long riding the same
setup, but not too bad). The rear is pressure tested (one
tube blew out before reaching full pressure; I blame the
tube because I double-checked the seating before I pumped
it up; the second came up fine). Specialized brand race
tubes, Hutchison Long-Distance slick tires.

The front was nice and true with that rubber on it.
I'd like to keep them, so changing out an axle, if it's
doable, is the preferred course.

--Blair
"I'm in no hurry. The sprint
doesn't happen 'til the end."

wrote:

wrote:
Blair P. Houghton wrote:
Changing axles requires repacking bearings. Unless you
have magic axles without bearings.

May I suggest a look at the Neuvation hub technical sheet? Your hubs
have sealed bearings; no need to repack them when you change the axle.
http://www.neuvationcycling.com/pdf/...icalsheets.pdf

Of course, I'd just re-space the frame and there'd be no need to change
the axle.

Just found Sheldon's excellent instructions for frame spacing,
including photos:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

About halfway down, highlighted in bright red, it says:

"Note, if you're not careful, you can do serious damage
to your frame this way!"

Oh. Now I feel better. Thanks, Shel.

It's not that risky, even for a vintage Holdworth (my first real road
bike was a Holdsworth. Great bike, but it shimmied no-hands at 17 and
35 mph.)

Mine shimmies at every speed no-hands. But I blame my
old Mavics and the cheap tires I've been putting on them
while I was waiting for them to die; i.e., a lot of the
shimmy could just be wobbly contact patches.

Holdsworths are somewhat flexy, which is the thing I liked
about them. And all bikes will have a speed at which they
shimmy; it's just a matter of where the poles are in the
Laplace transform of the springs and masses and dampings
that represent the entire system (including rider).

Usually it becomes a problem in descents, but either
standing or sitting down will change the system enough to
make it stop at that speed. I think letting go of the
bars would do that, too, but you'd have to be wearing a
polka-dot jersey to want to do it in a descent.

--Blair
"Practice makes madness."

wrote:
Blair P. Houghton writes:

I'd rather find the right axle or find out it's not possible to find
one, first.

It's not the axle but the width of hub and freewheel that defines
frame spacing.

Define "axle".

The shaft on which the hub turns. It's jam nut-to-jam nut width can
be arbitrarily long but the hub and specifically the FW width
prescribe what that dimension must be.

What it must be [at a minimum].

The LBS's first suggestion was to check for spacer washers
between the locknuts and the hub.

Even so, the threaded part of the axle might stick out too
far for the skewers to engage the lugs, even if I can take
out spacers and narrow the locknut-locknut distance.

Which I can't, because there aren't any.

I have axles of various
lengths for wider dropout spacing from 120 to 135mm because that is
what bicycle shops stock but my dropouts are 120 because I use an old
ultra-6 SunTour new winner pro freewheel.

I'm defining it as the parts of the wheel that don't rotate; they
include the part that mates with the inner surface of the lug.

That is the part that defines the spacing.

So what?

So you sounded like you thought it was something different
when you said that the hub and not the axle determined
dropout spacing. But now you seem to understand that the
axle determines the dropout spacing and the hub is only a
minimum.

If it's a two-piece affair, one on either side of the hub, then yes,
the hub would have to be replaced entirely. But the wrench at my
LBS implied it would be an axle change, not a hub change.

Why do would you want to change the axle if it fits in the hub and
freewheel?

It's too long for the dropout spacing. Or hadn't you read
before responding?

Changing the hub would not be a simple thing, if the aero spokes
Neuvation used are not compatible with someone else's hubs, because
they don't appear to make anything other than 130mm.

Just re-space the rear dropouts the way everybody else did as hub
spacings grew with increasing number of gears.

Asked and answered.

In this case, repacking the bearings is much the less-stressful
solution.

Or, rearrange the deck chairs as the ship sinks. What does this
have to do with the OP's frame width adjustment?

I'm the OP.

Yes?

You seemed not to have noticed.

Changing axles requires repacking bearings. Unless you have magic
axles without bearings.

I think you speak a different mechanical component language than I. I
don't understand what you mean by that. Are we talking about dropout
width or bearing maintenance. I missed the connection.

I said, just a few lines up:

"...repacking the bearings [after inserting a new axle]
is much the less-stressful solution [than spreading the
dropouts]..."

I.e., the whole point of the thread tells you the "connection".

--Blair
"How many spokes am I holding up?"

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:19:01 GMT, Blair P. Houghton wrote:

How do I guarantee that the lugs won't separate from the
frame at the welds under this non-designed stress; how do I
ensure that the two stays move outward the same distance;
and how do I know the bar on which the brake is mounted
won't break from one stay or the other?

How can you guarantee you don't cut yourself, or get hit by lightning
or whatever. Lighten up. It's not that big a deal. Just stick the
wheel in and ride it.

I tried that. It won't go unless I get a narrower axle
or make enough of a permanent bend in the stays that I
can get this axle in. But I won't do the latter.

--Blair
"I might not do the former."

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
41 wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
my Holdsworth.

I see the following relevant points:

1. A large body of practical experience says you should be able to
spread the frame no problem, if you do it carefully as described.

I'd agree if I agreed with the "no" part of that. Problems
can occur.

That's covered in the "should". Otherwise would be shall or will!
However, I know of no one who has ever recounted a failure.


3. Isn't replacing an axle less strenuous than spreading a frame?
Assuming everything else fits.

Not really. Spreading a frame could be as simple as laying
the frame on its side, standing on one lug, and tugging
the other one up. Replacing an axle needs wrench, or three.

I agree the frame bending is simpler but my point is that it is more
strenuous. For the axle, I count only two cone wrenches, unless this
hub is somehow unusual.

It's exasperating or amusing to watch you and JB talk past each other
over the axle length. All he is saying is that the required frame
spacing is determined by the hub and cogset width, because that is the
unalterable part of the equaiton. From that, you determine the correct
overlocknut distance. If the axle is too long, hacksaw off the excess
or even use nutted fittings instead of a QR. If it's two mm on each
side you may not even have to make any correction. Thus the axle length
is not the determining factor, although in practice most people just
change the axle instead of hacksawing it.

4. What's wrong with an original five, or was it six or seven, speed
freewheel with no change? You have a classic Holdsworth, why not leave
it with the original configuration on classic wheels and sell the new
ones on eBay? I don't see any advantage to a modern wheel with its
extreme dish. Who needs so many gears? Who needs so much aero, unless
you are racing? The weight need not be any better..

I'm considering the smaller rear cog setup, but I do need
a new wheel no matter what. My Mavics are starting to
sprin g parts.

Well, my way of thinking is, classic bike, plenty of 13-2x freewheels
available NOS on eBay, less than 13 teeth no great use, you should be
able to use a classic setup with no problem and no practical
disadvantages. Your old hub is probably just fine, all you need is a
new rim and to lace it to the old hub. If you can get a rim with the
same ERD you can even reuse the spokes.

Good luck with whatever you end up doing.o

"Blair P. Houghton" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:


I've got plenty of experience with mechanicals. Enough to
know these two significant things: when you stress old
metal, it doesn't behave the way new metal does;

Sorry, I disagree, unless there's something special going on, like
severe corrosion.

20 years of stress and release will change a crystalline
matrix (and yes, all solids are crystals, just some
aren't pure and regular). Welds and brazings weaken.

And applying any new, untested stress invokes the concept
of infant mortality.

You don't put a safety system into use in a situation in
which it hasn't been certified. Unless you don't care
about safety any more.

you can't
bend two pieces of metal exactly the same, and the two sides
of the rear triangle are two pieces of metal that need to
be bent exactly the same.

Here's how I did it last time (just a couple months ago): The bike was
a beautiful old Trek touring bike, Reynolds 531, in perfect condition.
I was doing some work on it for a friend, and found the bike shop
hadn't respaced the frame to fit the new hub.

I phoned the owner, explained the problem and said "Do you want me to
fix it?" She said yes. I left the bike in the workstand, got two
blocks of wood and one longer two-by-four, used the two-by-four to pry
the dropouts further apart by putting pressure on the wood blocks. I
used trial and error to get the exact 130mm spacing.

The force was applied evenly and simultaneously to the inside of both
dropouts. The frame passed a quick string alignment check, and the
frame rode perfectly straight when it was all done. It all took 15
minutes or less.

Nice job.

Anecdotal, though.

If you used the one side as the spring to deflect the
other side then no actual attempt was made to ensure even
deflection, so you got lucky.

To do it for certain you'd need to do each side separately.

How far did you have to push the dropouts past 130mm to get
them to spring back to 130mm?

(BTW, not to be a snob, but, no Trek is a Holdsworth.
I'd sooner bend a Serotta than my frame. I could replace
a custom Serotta. I could replace a stock Holdsworth -
I know of a source of NOS - but it'd have to be modded...)

There's also the fact that we're talking about one kind of
metal encased in another (the Campy lugs ...

Was that supposed to be dropouts?

I'm not confusing frame lugs with dropout lugs, if that's
what you mean.

The dropouts themselves are Campagnolo-made hardened lugs
that Holdsworth welded to the Reynolds tubing. Standard
equipment, AFAIK. But then, so was a full Campy groupo
I wish I had back. I saved the seat-post nut, though.

... are hardened and
the surrounding material is not) and once the stays are
widened the lug area has to be realigned, which threatens
to split the join between these dissimilar metals.

I don't know about any differences between Campy dropouts and Trek
dropouts, but there was absolutely no problem realigning the Trek
dropoouts, or the ones on my old Raleigh when I did this, or any other
bike I know of. Besides, I doubt the brazed area of a dropout would be
hardened after brazing. You're probably getting it thoroughly annealed
as you're brazing it.

Really. Seriously. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Nope. No more than you'd do dental surgery on your
own daughter just to make her teeth look like Jessica
Simpson's.

But if you really like your mountain, you're free to keep it. Nobody's
forcing you to perform an easy fix for an irritating problem.

That's an attitude I wish more people would get.

--Blair
"It's easy in theory."



I can understand your reluctance to bend the frame. Those of us that ride older
bikes have a special relationship with those bikes that may not be understood by
some. I ride a 1978 Gios torino Super Record that I have many miles on and I
had to make the same decision if I was to move on to modern 10 speed gearing. It
took me several months before I finally went ahead and respaced the frame. What
I found was that it was far easier than I thought it would be and the result was
a substanial improvement over the 6 speed freewheel. You would be surprised at
little you have to bend the frame to increase the spacing. I feel it was worth
the risk because I am riding more now with the improved range of gears and the
incredible ease of shifting. Good luck


Neal

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:57:30 GMT, Blair P. Houghton wrote:


I tried that. It won't go unless I get a narrower axle
or make enough of a permanent bend in the stays that I
can get this axle in. But I won't do the latter.

--Blair
"I might not do the former."

Here's an idea. Why not take it to a frame builder and have them do
the respacing. They have the jigs and the knowledge.
In fact, they could tell you if it isn't a good idea. Or if it is no
big deal.

I might be reluctant to do it myself, but I would have no fear of
having a pro do it. If you post a location, I'm sure someone will know
of a builder, within a reasonable distance. Just make arrangements to
have it done while you wait.


Life is Good!
Jeff

In article , says...


Dennis P. Harris wrote:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:53:01 GMT in rec.bicycles.tech, Blair P.
Houghton wrote:

But I've got enough practice with mechanicals to know that
theory don't mean **** when you're standing there with a
broken widget in your hand.

it's steel. it's not going to break.

...said the designers of the Tacoma Narrows bridge.

How many bridges have done the same since then? You are not the first person
doing the procedure, so that is not a good analogy. Just bend it and ride it.
--------------
Alex