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The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.



 
 
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  #51  
Old August 15th 05, 05:36 PM
Alex Rodriguez
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Default The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

In article , says...

I tried that. It won't go unless I get a narrower axle
or make enough of a permanent bend in the stays that I
can get this axle in. But I won't do the latter.


I put about 10k miles on a Specialized Epic carbon fiber frame after I just
jammed in the wider wheel. It was originally spaced for a 126mm wheel and I
just spread the stays and put in a 130mm wheel. No problems at all. It just
meant I had spread the stays every time I put the wheel back on. Not a big
deal. I'm sure someone is still riding that frame.
-------------
Alex

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  #52  
Old August 15th 05, 06:07 PM
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Default The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.


Blair P. Houghton wrote:
wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:


I've got plenty of experience with mechanicals. Enough to
know these two significant things: when you stress old
metal, it doesn't behave the way new metal does;


Sorry, I disagree, unless there's something special going on, like
severe corrosion.


20 years of stress and release will change a crystalline
matrix (and yes, all solids are crystals, just some
aren't pure and regular). Welds and brazings weaken.


Um... sorry, no. Not in any practical way, in this practical
situation. You're worrying about things you don't have to worry about.


I left the bike in the workstand, got two
blocks of wood and one longer two-by-four, used the two-by-four to pry
the dropouts further apart by putting pressure on the wood blocks. I
used trial and error to get the exact 130mm spacing.

The force was applied evenly and simultaneously to the inside of both
dropouts. The frame passed a quick string alignment check, and the
frame rode perfectly straight when it was all done. It all took 15
minutes or less.


Nice job.

Anecdotal, though.

If you used the one side as the spring to deflect the
other side then no actual attempt was made to ensure even
deflection, so you got lucky.


I was thinking about this a bit more, recalling exactly how I did it.
It was actually two two-by-fours, and two other blocks of wood to fill
up the space between the dropouts, arranged this way: Block, 2x4, 2x4,
block. The 2x4s extended about 8" (as a guess) forward of the axle
line, and perhaps 2.5 feet behind, and were parallel to each other.

I spread the back end of the 2x4s, so they pivoted on their front ends,
spreading the dropouts. They acted as second class levers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

The forces on each dropout were exactly the same. I figured the
deflection would be the same. And it was.


How far did you have to push the dropouts past 130mm to get
them to spring back to 130mm?


I didn't measure. It took about three or four tries to get it right.
I've got a fair amount of experience bending metal. ;-) I just felt
for the yielding.



There's also the fact that we're talking about one kind of
metal encased in another (the Campy lugs ...


Was that supposed to be dropouts?


I'm not confusing frame lugs with dropout lugs, if that's
what you mean.

The dropouts themselves are Campagnolo-made hardened lugs
that Holdsworth welded to the Reynolds tubing.


?? That's not making sense to me. For one thing, isn't it brazed
construction instead of welded? And regarding the lugs - do you have a
picture?


"It's easy in theory."


:-) It's easy in practice, too. Some things are that way! But it's
all up to you.

- Frank Krygowski

  #53  
Old August 15th 05, 08:17 PM
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Default The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

Blair P. Houghton wrote:

If it was a beater or a new bike, I'd consider it good exercise.

But this is my Holdsworth.

One slip, and 22 years of history, maybe 40k miles, dumped
on the junk-heap.


I have a Holdsworth Super Mistral (Black/red panels), first "nice"
frame I ever bought new, 1980. I toured on it, and then used it for a
fixed gear bike and single-speed commuter. Probably not 40k miles, but
at least a lot of the paint is missing...

Yeah, "dogpiling". But maybe sharpening a point or two: My
understanding is that "coldsetting" stays for alignment is routinely
done after brazing, when new. I've been told and have read that some
mass-produced (in bike terms) frames were commonly cold-set by greater
amounts than what's being discussed here.

Sheldon Brown on Holdsworth:

Holdsworth
The Holdsworthy company was a huge retail and mail order concern going
back at least to the 30's. Eventually Holdsworthy bought out many other
framebuilders such as Claud Butler and Freddie Grubb. Holdsworth frames
until the 50's were really extraordinary, and from then until the mid
70's were simply quite nice. The orange and blue professionals were
great riders, and their touring counterparts with the same interesting
wrap-around seat cluster were very cool indeed.
By the late 70's or early 80's, things started getting very mass
produced. Holdsworth frames became the lowest priced frame going, rally
just a step above many nice production bikes. Reality, though, is that
even the later more mediocre examples really ride wonderfully. They are
cheap thrills in the vintage lightweight world. For early 70's models
in guideline condition (especially the orange ones) a price around $850
seems reasonable. Because Holdsworth frames were usually ridden hard,
it may be very hard to find truly great examples. I know that I'm still
looking! For later models with N.R. parts, a value around $550 seems
reasonable.

Open to correction: I understand the later Holdsworths were furnace
brazed, which I guess would mean a minimum amount of constraint (no
jigs) on the tubes as they were joined. Then, coldset to take a wheel.

Making the point that "our" Holdsworths have probably already been
coldset at least once. (Please see * below)

There's lots of extra beef in there ("design" factor moot).

Sheldon's caution is something anyone would have to include with this
procedural. Sure, you could start out Force 10 and ruin a frame. Hence
Sheldon's caution; but the somewhat dismissive tone of a few posters
here, who have seen exactly this OLD adjustment done many times, speaks
volumes. "NBD". Repeating, very common when OLD standards changed
because, if for no other reason, flat repair, especially with packs and
fenders on, is (maybe a whole lot) easier if the wheel slides in and
out without having to spread the stays. In the rain, etc.

Perhaps a direct question: Has anyone seen a frame being widened for
130 OLD ruined, in a "professional setting"?

*Just to say: I also had a Roberts ("Club") touring frame, which was
(allegedly, g) a low-volume, hand-brazed blah blah English 531 bike
with Campy DO's; specs and measurements almost identical to the
Holdsworth (I splurged on a fancy touring bike, back when I was
touring, late 70's to mid-80's). I always thought the Holdsworth rode
better, for half the price; this is partly why the Holdsworth hangs in
my garage, while the Roberts lives with a Japanese rider/collector.
--Tom Paterson

  #54  
Old August 15th 05, 09:13 PM
Jon Blake
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Default The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

Just another data point - I guess now adding up to the "mountain" of data
points. I had a local shop here in Seattle "cold set" my mid 70s 530
tubing frame to 130 - no problems whatsoever.

Slightly off topic - I had a Holdsworth "competition" model. I bought the
frame in London around 1972. Took it home, built it up and rode it for
years. Wish I still had it. Sloping fork crown, wrap around seat stays,
kind of neat.

Anyone in the group remember Harry Quinn frames?

Anyway, unless it's a point of stubborn hubris, I just can't see why the
OP would hesitate to get a quality shop to do a cold set.

- Jon
  #55  
Old August 15th 05, 09:28 PM
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Default The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

[snip]

Dear Blair,

I hope that you never have to decide whether to have a wart removed.

True, warts are frequently removed by competent surgeons, but what if
something went wrong?

Carl Fogel

  #56  
Old August 16th 05, 04:26 AM
Jim Adney
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Default The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

On 14 Aug 2005 20:30:32 -0700 wrote:

Blair P. Houghton wrote:


Was that supposed to be dropouts?

... are hardened and
the surrounding material is not) and once the stays are
widened the lug area has to be realigned, which threatens
to split the join between these dissimilar metals.


I don't know about any differences between Campy dropouts and Trek
dropouts, but there was absolutely no problem realigning the Trek
dropoouts, or the ones on my old Raleigh when I did this, or any other
bike I know of. Besides, I doubt the brazed area of a dropout would be
hardened after brazing. You're probably getting it thoroughly annealed
as you're brazing it.


Gotta agree with Frank he

No dropouts that I know of, including Campy, are hardened, even before
brazing. They are all quite malleable and are commonly bent and filed
before and after brazing.

If the braze joint comes apart in the process of respacing, then you
should just count your blessings that it did it here, rather than
coming apart on the road.

OTOH, I find that if I try to spread a rear triangle in a single
motion, the bending will generally all occur on one side, so I learned
long ago to do it one side at a time. Spreading a rear triangle will
give you real respect for a quality frame. Cheap frames are easy to
bend, but a well-made steel frame with good quality tubing can take
all your strength. It's best to do this with some leverage of some
kind, in order to keep control of how much it bends. Otherwise you're
likely to overdo it.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney

Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
  #57  
Old August 16th 05, 09:41 AM
A Muzi
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Default The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
20 years of stress and release will change a crystalline
matrix (and yes, all solids are crystals, just some
aren't pure and regular). Welds and brazings weaken.


I do a lot of frame repair and alignment to vintage frames
and I've seen no evidence of that.

I'm not confusing frame lugs with dropout lugs, if that's
what you mean.
The dropouts themselves are Campagnolo-made hardened lugs
that Holdsworth welded to the Reynolds tubing.


Your Campagnolo #1010 frame ends are mild steel. quite soft.
It is not welded. It is brazed. I used to buy brazing flux
from Holdsworthy ( really!) it was pink and 1600 degrees.

You note that it is your prerogative to not change this frame.
Absolutely right.
Just don't invent reasons and try to pass them as truth.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #58  
Old August 16th 05, 10:17 AM
A Muzi
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Default The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
If it was a beater or a new bike, I'd consider it good exercise.
But this is my Holdsworth.
One slip, and 22 years of history, maybe 40k miles, dumped
on the junk-heap.


wrote:
I have a Holdsworth Super Mistral (Black/red panels), first "nice"
frame I ever bought new, 1980. I toured on it, and then used it for a
fixed gear bike and single-speed commuter. Probably not 40k miles, but
at least a lot of the paint is missing...

Yeah, "dogpiling". But maybe sharpening a point or two: My
understanding is that "coldsetting" stays for alignment is routinely
done after brazing, when new. I've been told and have read that some
mass-produced (in bike terms) frames were commonly cold-set by greater
amounts than what's being discussed here.

-snip-
Open to correction: I understand the later Holdsworths were furnace
brazed, which I guess would mean a minimum amount of constraint (no
jigs) on the tubes as they were joined. Then, coldset to take a wheel.

-snip-

Here's the later (final) Holdsworth facility on Oakfield
road; no 'furnace brazing'.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hwfact.html

I didn't see any 'hearth brazing'(as it was called then)
when I was at the Putney facility in the early seventies
either.

My own '53 Raleigh _was_ built that way. It's been widened
and even de-pretzeled after an horrific crash but rides
straight to this day. Every day.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #59  
Old August 16th 05, 10:39 AM
Dennis P. Harris
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Default The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:14:27 GMT in rec.bicycles.tech, Blair P.
Houghton wrote:

You say it's easy, why don't you pony up and indemnify the
process against any sort of mechanical error for the $20k
or so this frame is really worth to me.

oh, bullpucky. no frame is worth that much, and you're just
obsessive. PLONK.


  #60  
Old August 16th 05, 11:35 AM
41
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Default The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.


A Muzi wrote:

Here's the later (final) Holdsworth facility on Oakfield
road; no 'furnace brazing'.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hwfact.html


What is photo #7? It looks like the stress relief machine at Trek
described by JB.

Is it always women who build the wheels at large factories?

 




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