Ride an SUB not an SUV

In rec.bicycles.misc George Conklin wrote:
"Bill Baka" wrote in message

Yeah, The wallet forces people to make changes with less griping than
any law ever has. What's wrong with carpooling and soccer-momming an
SUV and using a toy car like the Geo for actual commuting?

Car pooling works only for workers who have a factory whistle to
attend to. White collar workers don't work those kind of fixed
hours.

Hmm, I'll have to tell the van pool people at my work
whiter-than-white-collar job that they can't possibly be getting to work
that way. It must be teleportation. I'll have to ask them how they do
that.

Further, you need to have a car to leave at home if you car
pool. The law is set up to make sure it fails.

Errr, now this part I don't get. Why do you need to leave a car at
home?

--
Dane Buson -
The question is, why are politicians so eager to be president? What is it
about the job that makes it worth revealing, on national television, that
you have the ethical standards of a slime-coated piece of industrial waste?
-- Dave Barry, "On Presidential Politics"

Pat wrote:
On Mar 5, 7:26 am, "George Conklin"
wrote:
"Daryl Hunt" wrote in message

...



"George Conklin" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Bill Baka" wrote in message
t...
donquijote1954 wrote:
On Mar 4, 9:49 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:
On Mar 3, 11:47 am, "donquijote1954"
wrote:
Hey, be smart. You are part of the solution, not part of the
problem.
And you save the buck. Dinosaurs are a thing of the past and the
little furry animals are here to stay.
There are two versions of it...
bike:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235847689274986069
and bus:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235396990102826110
OK, how is the bus not polluting?
You don't see it everyday, but it's possible. Just some new
technologies and some political will to make it happen...
Heaven Help Bus
A visit to Iceland spurs dreams of a hydrogen future
The loneliness of the long-distance rider.I have seen the future, and
it works.
The 111 bus rolls quietly up to the Mjodd terminal in eastern
Reykjavik at 11:19 a.m., and I climb aboard. For 45 minutes, we
cruise
through the suburbs and then to the central square downtown, picking
up and discharging eight passengers along the way. Fuel cells that
would have filled the space of several passenger seats five years ago
are now small enough to fit in the roof panels. And out the exhaust
pipe: a trickle of water.
http://www.grist.org/comments/soapbo...n-hydrogenbus/





I have a dream...that someday buses will not pollute. Actually we
could make it happen now much easier than having all the cars be
replaced with hybrid. Just change the fleet of buses to hydrogen or
some other technologies out there.
We can make it happen with THE REVOLUTION. Coming soon...
Too optimistic. Somebody, somewhere is probably burning coal or oil to
make the electricity to electrolyze the water to make the Hydrogen.
It only really works if the electricity comes from wind, solar, hydro,
or, dare I say it, NUculear (Bush pronunciation).
Bill Baka
Anything which makes a bus more efficient would make a car even more
efficient than the bus. Right now transit buses waste fuel big time.
Not all, I think I read somewhere where a city went to Electrics.
Ok, that exports pollution to rural areas. And of course a plug-in hybrid
electric car would meet about 90% of the commuting needs of America.


This whole Tango and electric car stuff is a load of BS. Period. It
is all a bunch of tree-hugging hyporcrits who want to feel good about
the environments without actually have to do anything about it or be
inconvenienced. Period. There are solutions out there and they are
fairly simple. But it isn't this crap.

Electric cars? Guess what. Our electric grid is near capacity and
you want to plug your cars in? Great, you feel good about having an
expensive, stupid electric car while somebody is out building a coal
or oil plant to generate electricity and ship it to you. Okay, they
might be able to put out less pollution but it is still coal or oil.
Electricity doesn't just come out of you plug. It does, however, grow
on trees. Okay, no really, but fuel grows in fields. If you want to
cut your dependence on fossil fuels, switch to vegetable oil. You
busses and trucks and cars can run on that. It's simple, less
pollution, and easily stops the dependence on fossils. Okay, don't
want that, go with bio-diesel.

REPUGLICAN ALERT!!!

Meanwhile, you little Tangos. They are nothing but publicity stunts.
They are okay for backup transportation in a city but that's about
it. But so is a motorcycle. Oh, but a motorcycle is "old technology"
and doesn't have the allure of a slick Tango. Yeah, that's my point.
If you people really gave a damn you be out riding motorcycles right
now. Plus you can throw on a trailer for groceries if you want.

Me? I don't ride public transportation and I drive a minivan. So
there you go. But we don't have public transporation and if we did,
it's be VERY wasteful because everyone around here has a car. And I
drive a van to SAVE gasoline. I haul lots of kids to and froe
practices and having a van that can carry 4 or 5 teens plus gear sure
beats taking two trips. But when the weather is nice and I have to go
somewhere, I ride one of my 3 motorcycles that range in gas milage
from about 35 mpg to about 100 mpg. And the less expensive the bike I
have, the better the gas mileage. Plus they take up very little
parking. But you know what, riding the most fuel efficient vehicle on
the road has NOTHING to do with gas mileage. They are just fun to
ride. My smallest bike doesn't have much of a motor, but by 450 cc
bike that is 25 years old still gets 70 mph and can out accelerate and
outperform most cars on the road.

So if you want to do something about energy and efficiency and
pollution, go do it. But the whole "make it electric" arguement is
pretty stupid because all you are doing is changing where the fuel is
burned. And none of that stuff about "hydro" because all hydro is
used to 100% capacity and any incrimental electricity is fossil. Oh,
so you want more hydro. I'm fine with that. But I live in the
country because I like it and I don't want any more valleys flooded so
people in cities can go do stupid things. Go damn up your own
rivers. Go put a damn across the Hudson. NYC has so many reseviours
upstate they they have already devastated the Catskills. Pretty lakes
you say? Yeah, but what about the people that used to live there who
were flooded out of their homes. What about the rivers that are gone
and the trout that aren't there? So maybe nuclear is a good thing.
It might be. In 30 or 40 years when they get done cleaning up the
nuclear reprocessing plant 30 miles from here, we'll discuss it.
Actually I don't mind it, so if you want nuclear for Long Island or
NYC, go put it on Long Island or NYC. Oh, that's right, they tried
that and the people didnt want it. So if you want nuclear, why do YOU
want the electricity but you want ME to deal with the consequences? I
don't dump crap in your city so you keep your crap out of my rural
area.

As for bicycles? A great idea. Probably everyone in NYC and most
other cities should have one or a scooter or small motorcyle. But
they are not the answer for everyone.

$6 gas. What about it. I'll go down on the Rez and buy it for $5.
And as soon as the price of oil exceeds that of cooking oil, bio
diesel sure will look sweat. Okay, the roads will smell like a
chinese restaurant, but some people will like that.

Fuel cells might use gas more efficently, but they are still using
gas. So what's the big deal. Moving a car that some drives in a city
from 30 mpg to 50 saves 13 gallon of fuel over 1000 miles. Moving a
truck from 8 mpg to 12 mpg saves 42 gallons. Biodiesel would save 125
gallons of oil.

Sorry for the rant, but if you are going to save the world, be
practical and do thing that really make a difference, not just get
what you don't want to see out of your sight.

Sorry for the rant, but this

Dude,
Slow down.
The idea for electric cars should be that if one just has to own an SUV
(soccer mom or guy who needs the hauling space) then they should have
one. They should also be required to buy a little tiny, barely can get
into it, econo-box for running around town to do those non-hauling
trips. The little one can be a total electric that you plug in at night
and never go over 30 miles in one day.
The insurance companies could help by making large vehicles pay a much
bigger fee for comprehensive collision liability for the SUV and almost
nothing for the little econo box.
The bottom line is that if you are an ecology abuser you get to pay.
Bill Baka

George Conklin wrote:
"Bill Baka" wrote in message
.. .
George Conklin wrote:
"Bill Baka" wrote in message
t...
Gas is going to have to hit $3 a gallon and stay there for the soccer
mom crowd to realize they need a little Geo-Metro 3 banger just to run
to the store for a pack of smokes, or some **** paper or other silly
little errand. People are slow learners.
Bill Baka
It would need to more like $6 for anything much to happen. And besides,
people will always use their cars for shopping even if they take transit
to
work, for no fuel savings, but then the bill goes to the public in terms
of
subsidized fares.


Yeah,
The wallet forces people to make changes with less griping than any law
ever has. What's wrong with carpooling and soccer-momming an SUV and
using a toy car like the Geo for actual commuting?

Car pooling works only for workers who have a factory whistle to attend
to. White collar workers don't work those kind of fixed hours. Further, you
need to have a car to leave at home if you car pool. The law is set up to
make sure it fails.

Last year I worked a contract job with a friend of mine and we rode
together in his Kia SUV/truck/4X4 and saved about 1/3 of the gas we
would have used by driving separately. This was only due to his Kia
getting 25 MPG and my Mazda getting 33 MPG. He is 6'8" tall and
physically couldn't fit in my Mazda, so there was a good reason to take
his bigger Kia.



Some of these people
are so brain dead they say they can't afford 2 cars. HUH! They can
afford the gas and the average $30G's for an SUV, so why not $14,000 for
a new micro-car or even less for a used one?

Not suitable for car pooling anyway.

Even 2 people in a small car is a car pool, plus working at the same
place gives you a big edge. If the boss knows you ride together he also
knows if he pulls the overtime trick on one of us he will have to pay
overtime to the other for sticking around. At least that is how me and
my over sized friend did it.


Of course about 20% of Americans still smoke and about half drink
alcohol, not to mention the drug users, and they know it's bad for them
but they do it anyway.
I guess you can't argue with idiots, especially if they think they have
enough money to waste on those things.
Sigh.
Bill Baka

Actually drinking is good for you.


After 5 minutes in this group I need one.
Bill Baka

Dane Buson wrote:
In rec.bicycles.misc George Conklin wrote:
"Bill Baka" wrote in message

Yeah, The wallet forces people to make changes with less griping than
any law ever has. What's wrong with carpooling and soccer-momming an
SUV and using a toy car like the Geo for actual commuting?
Car pooling works only for workers who have a factory whistle to
attend to. White collar workers don't work those kind of fixed
hours.

Hey,
I worked at one of those whiter than white collar jobs, and guess what I
wore to work...Tee shirt, jeans, ans sneakers. Any time I had to deal
with plant visitors I just told them I was the top engineer on my
project and that I wasn't going to wear a suit and tie to crawl behind
and inside some of the machines I worked on. Hands on, and they bought
that, and if they tried to challenge my intellect or grasp of the
situation I had plenty of big words to put them down with. Sales types
have a big ego but usually nothing to back it up.

Hmm, I'll have to tell the van pool people at my work
whiter-than-white-collar job that they can't possibly be getting to work
that way. It must be teleportation. I'll have to ask them how they do
that.

Must be magic. I can't imagine 2 or more executive types stuck in a car
with each other for more than 2 minutes without an argument breaking out.

Further, you need to have a car to leave at home if you car
pool. The law is set up to make sure it fails.

Errr, now this part I don't get. Why do you need to leave a car at
home?

A small car for personal short errands?
Bill Baka

-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"George Conklin" wrote in message
nk.net...


Anything which makes a bus more efficient would make a car even more
efficient than the bus. Right now transit buses waste fuel big time.

Nope. Different uses. Buses do a LOT more stop-and-go than cars -- which
is what wastes fuel.

-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


"George Conklin" wrote in message
hlink.net...


Actually a SUV would use about the same fuel as a current transit bus.

And carries a lot fewer passengers.

Daryl Hunt wrote:
"nash" wrote in message
news:YyMGh.1218024$1T2.294183@pd7urf2no...
"George Conklin" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Bill Baka" wrote in message
t...
donquijote1954 wrote:
On Mar 4, 9:49 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:
On Mar 3, 11:47 am, "donquijote1954"
wrote:

Hey, be smart. You are part of the solution, not part of the
problem.
And you save the buck. Dinosaurs are a thing of the past and the
little furry animals are here to stay.
There are two versions of it...
bike:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235847689274986069
and bus:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235396990102826110
OK, how is the bus not polluting?
You don't see it everyday, but it's possible. Just some new
technologies and some political will to make it happen...

Heaven Help Bus
A visit to Iceland spurs dreams of a hydrogen future

The loneliness of the long-distance rider.I have seen the future, and
it works.

The 111 bus rolls quietly up to the Mjodd terminal in eastern
Reykjavik at 11:19 a.m., and I climb aboard. For 45 minutes, we cruise
through the suburbs and then to the central square downtown, picking
up and discharging eight passengers along the way. Fuel cells that
would have filled the space of several passenger seats five years ago
are now small enough to fit in the roof panels. And out the exhaust
pipe: a trickle of water.

http://www.grist.org/comments/soapbo...n-hydrogenbus/

I have a dream...that someday buses will not pollute. Actually we
could make it happen now much easier than having all the cars be
replaced with hybrid. Just change the fleet of buses to hydrogen or
some other technologies out there.

We can make it happen with THE REVOLUTION. Coming soon...

Too optimistic. Somebody, somewhere is probably burning coal or oil to
make the electricity to electrolyze the water to make the Hydrogen.
It only really works if the electricity comes from wind, solar, hydro,
or, dare I say it, NUculear (Bush pronunciation).
Bill Baka
Anything which makes a bus more efficient would make a car even more
efficient than the bus. Right now transit buses waste fuel big time.

"Who killed the electric car" would be a good movie for this thread.
I will never buy anything from GM. Wusses!

They didn't kill it but they did slow it down. You will notice that Carlin
is saying it's because of the Lead Acid Batteries. It's not. LiIon,
mercury ion and (soon to be) Sulfure Ion are extremely efficient and much
lighter than a SLA. Those are the batteries that should be used. But
Toyota still saddles their Hybrids with SLAs so there is no savings or smog
lessing. SLAs have about a 1000 hour service life but reduce when they hit
about 500 hours or more. That means you have to replace them and that is
danged expensive when you are talking about a dual batteried 72v system.
That would be 12 Deep Cycle Sealed Lead Acids. I don't see the savings nor
the reduction on the environment.



They didn't invent it either by about 100 years. When gas engines were
nasty little beasts there were some electric cars in production. The
idea was that you could get 10 or maybe even 20 miles and just plug it
in at night. No horses to feed and water, simple, really. Then when cars
actually got better, around the early 20's, not only the horses, but
also the electric cars pretty much went away. The cars were no longer
manufactured so you couldn't get a new one, but at least the die hards
could get a new horse. 1920----1990+, seems like a damn long time to
ignore electrics. I do remember in the 1970's after the OPEC embargo
that some mail buggies were electric powered. You could hear the power
transistors switching at about 400 Hz. Then oil got a little cheaper and
the government went back to gas. GM doesn't get to take credit for much
of anything when it gets right down to it.
Bill Baka

P.S. Thomas Edison invented almost nothing on his own. He just saw half
developed ideas and improved them enough to get his own patent.
No wonder he and Tesla didn't get along. AC versus DC.

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
...
Pat wrote:
On Mar 5, 7:26 am, "George Conklin"
wrote:
"Daryl Hunt" wrote in message

...



"George Conklin" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Bill Baka" wrote in message
t...
donquijote1954 wrote:
On Mar 4, 9:49 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote:
On Mar 3, 11:47 am, "donquijote1954"
wrote:
Hey, be smart. You are part of the solution, not part of the
problem.
And you save the buck. Dinosaurs are a thing of the past and the
little furry animals are here to stay.
There are two versions of it...
bike:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235847689274986069
and bus:
http://www.zazzle.com/product/235396990102826110
OK, how is the bus not polluting?
You don't see it everyday, but it's possible. Just some new
technologies and some political will to make it happen...
Heaven Help Bus
A visit to Iceland spurs dreams of a hydrogen future
The loneliness of the long-distance rider.I have seen the future,
and
it works.
The 111 bus rolls quietly up to the Mjodd terminal in eastern
Reykjavik at 11:19 a.m., and I climb aboard. For 45 minutes, we
cruise
through the suburbs and then to the central square downtown, picking
up and discharging eight passengers along the way. Fuel cells that
would have filled the space of several passenger seats five years
ago
are now small enough to fit in the roof panels. And out the exhaust
pipe: a trickle of water.
http://www.grist.org/comments/soapbo...n-hydrogenbus/





I have a dream...that someday buses will not pollute. Actually we
could make it happen now much easier than having all the cars be
replaced with hybrid. Just change the fleet of buses to hydrogen or
some other technologies out there.
We can make it happen with THE REVOLUTION. Coming soon...
Too optimistic. Somebody, somewhere is probably burning coal or oil
to
make the electricity to electrolyze the water to make the Hydrogen.
It only really works if the electricity comes from wind, solar,
hydro,
or, dare I say it, NUculear (Bush pronunciation).
Bill Baka
Anything which makes a bus more efficient would make a car even more
efficient than the bus. Right now transit buses waste fuel big time.
Not all, I think I read somewhere where a city went to Electrics.
Ok, that exports pollution to rural areas. And of course a plug-in
hybrid
electric car would meet about 90% of the commuting needs of America.


This whole Tango and electric car stuff is a load of BS. Period. It
is all a bunch of tree-hugging hyporcrits who want to feel good about
the environments without actually have to do anything about it or be
inconvenienced. Period. There are solutions out there and they are
fairly simple. But it isn't this crap.

Electric cars? Guess what. Our electric grid is near capacity and
you want to plug your cars in? Great, you feel good about having an
expensive, stupid electric car while somebody is out building a coal
or oil plant to generate electricity and ship it to you. Okay, they
might be able to put out less pollution but it is still coal or oil.
Electricity doesn't just come out of you plug. It does, however, grow
on trees. Okay, no really, but fuel grows in fields. If you want to
cut your dependence on fossil fuels, switch to vegetable oil. You
busses and trucks and cars can run on that. It's simple, less
pollution, and easily stops the dependence on fossils. Okay, don't
want that, go with bio-diesel.

REPUGLICAN ALERT!!!

Meanwhile, you little Tangos. They are nothing but publicity stunts.
They are okay for backup transportation in a city but that's about
it. But so is a motorcycle. Oh, but a motorcycle is "old technology"
and doesn't have the allure of a slick Tango. Yeah, that's my point.
If you people really gave a damn you be out riding motorcycles right
now. Plus you can throw on a trailer for groceries if you want.

Me? I don't ride public transportation and I drive a minivan. So
there you go. But we don't have public transporation and if we did,
it's be VERY wasteful because everyone around here has a car. And I
drive a van to SAVE gasoline. I haul lots of kids to and froe
practices and having a van that can carry 4 or 5 teens plus gear sure
beats taking two trips. But when the weather is nice and I have to go
somewhere, I ride one of my 3 motorcycles that range in gas milage
from about 35 mpg to about 100 mpg. And the less expensive the bike I
have, the better the gas mileage. Plus they take up very little
parking. But you know what, riding the most fuel efficient vehicle on
the road has NOTHING to do with gas mileage. They are just fun to
ride. My smallest bike doesn't have much of a motor, but by 450 cc
bike that is 25 years old still gets 70 mph and can out accelerate and
outperform most cars on the road.

So if you want to do something about energy and efficiency and
pollution, go do it. But the whole "make it electric" arguement is
pretty stupid because all you are doing is changing where the fuel is
burned. And none of that stuff about "hydro" because all hydro is
used to 100% capacity and any incrimental electricity is fossil. Oh,
so you want more hydro. I'm fine with that. But I live in the
country because I like it and I don't want any more valleys flooded so
people in cities can go do stupid things. Go damn up your own
rivers. Go put a damn across the Hudson. NYC has so many reseviours
upstate they they have already devastated the Catskills. Pretty lakes
you say? Yeah, but what about the people that used to live there who
were flooded out of their homes. What about the rivers that are gone
and the trout that aren't there? So maybe nuclear is a good thing.
It might be. In 30 or 40 years when they get done cleaning up the
nuclear reprocessing plant 30 miles from here, we'll discuss it.
Actually I don't mind it, so if you want nuclear for Long Island or
NYC, go put it on Long Island or NYC. Oh, that's right, they tried
that and the people didnt want it. So if you want nuclear, why do YOU
want the electricity but you want ME to deal with the consequences? I
don't dump crap in your city so you keep your crap out of my rural
area.

As for bicycles? A great idea. Probably everyone in NYC and most
other cities should have one or a scooter or small motorcyle. But
they are not the answer for everyone.

$6 gas. What about it. I'll go down on the Rez and buy it for $5.
And as soon as the price of oil exceeds that of cooking oil, bio
diesel sure will look sweat. Okay, the roads will smell like a
chinese restaurant, but some people will like that.

Fuel cells might use gas more efficently, but they are still using
gas. So what's the big deal. Moving a car that some drives in a city
from 30 mpg to 50 saves 13 gallon of fuel over 1000 miles. Moving a
truck from 8 mpg to 12 mpg saves 42 gallons. Biodiesel would save 125
gallons of oil.

Sorry for the rant, but if you are going to save the world, be
practical and do thing that really make a difference, not just get
what you don't want to see out of your sight.

Sorry for the rant, but this

Dude,
Slow down.
The idea for electric cars should be that if one just has to own an SUV
(soccer mom or guy who needs the hauling space) then they should have one.
They should also be required to buy a little tiny, barely can get into it,
econo-box for running around town to do those non-hauling trips. The
little one can be a total electric that you plug in at night and never go
over 30 miles in one day.
The insurance companies could help by making large vehicles pay a much
bigger fee for comprehensive collision liability for the SUV and almost
nothing for the little econo box.
The bottom line is that if you are an ecology abuser you get to pay.
Bill Baka

Yes, and gas is heading back to over 3 bucks a gallon. Since the technology
is already here for the electric vehicles (I ride one myself and haven't
paid for fuel since Nov 2004) one would think that there might be somewhat
or greater of an incentive to get that ol electric bike, car, MC or MiniVan
going just by pluging it in. Our grid is well below needing help so we have
more than we need. Shoot, chances are, we sell some of it to where you are.
But I doubt if electric vehicles will bust many grids since the recharging
takes less than a normal lightbulb. Mine takes about 2 to 5 amp per hour.
That's many times less than a light bulb and about the same as a decent
clock radio.



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"Brian Huntley" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Mar 4, 8:36 pm, "Daryl Hunt" wrote:
You will notice that there was no mention of the obvious. If you use the
electricity without converting it to anything it's clean (Hydrogen is not
as
clean) then you do get what you want.

It's bloody hard to bring a gallon of electricity home, though. You
generally have to convert it to something, even if it's some oddball
chemical soup of lead and sulpheric acid. That, or bring a LONG cord
with you.

I don't need to bring a bucket of electricity home. I have it stockpiled in
any electrical outlet on my house, garage, office building (the owner of the
building is installing an outlet for my electric vehicle outside). In fact,
they are all over the place. Now, if you are in the outback then recharging
your bush buggy is the least of your worries, Mate.




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On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:05:41 GMT, Bill Baka wrote:

Even 2 people in a small car is a car pool, plus working at the same
place gives you a big edge. If the boss knows you ride together he also
knows if he pulls the overtime trick on one of us he will have to pay
overtime to the other for sticking around. At least that is how me and
my over sized friend did it.

No, he doesn't have to pay your friend overtime to 'stick around'. Not
in any state in the U.S.A. And I've worked with certified payrolls for
probably around a hundred different union jobs, and that was never
part of the work rules - which wouldn't likely apply to contract
employees.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...