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#921
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Ride an SUB not an SUV
On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill wrote:
drydem wrote: I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the hydrogen powered electric generators) . On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar cells??? Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night. So they are not by themselves an alternate power solution since they can't provide power on demand. Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a point where they provide an adequate storage capacity for our on demand electric utility power needs so a solar array and electric battery array system can't be scaled up for an electric power grid/utility solution. Electric batteries also have a limited lifespan which drives up the cost of a solar array electric generation system. Hydrogen fuel cells via hydrogen electric generators can provides electric power on demand. Also hydrogen fuel cells and electric generators can be scaled up engineering wise to theoretically solve power needs of an electric utility grid. Hydrogen could also be created by wind generators or a hydro electric turbine. If the combustion of hydrogen does not produce radioactive waste or CO2 emission either. Theoretically, one might use solar/wind power as a way to reduce the energy cost of making biodiesel or ethanol. |
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#922
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Ride an SUB not an SUV
drydem wrote:
On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill wrote: drydem wrote: I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the hydrogen powered electric generators) . On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar cells??? Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night. So they are not by themselves an alternate power solution since they can't provide power on demand. Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award. That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps. Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a point where they provide an adequate storage capacity for our on demand electric utility power needs so a solar array and electric battery array system can't be scaled up for an electric power grid/utility solution. Electric batteries also have a limited lifespan which drives up the cost of a solar array electric generation system. Look up "Ultra-caps" and you will see where the future of electric power storage is going. Hydrogen fuel cells via hydrogen electric generators can provides electric power on demand. Also hydrogen fuel cells and electric generators can be scaled up engineering wise to theoretically solve power needs of an electric utility grid. Hydrogen could also be created by wind generators or a hydro electric turbine. If the combustion of hydrogen does not produce radioactive waste or CO2 emission either. You're preaching to the choir with me. Theoretically, one might use solar/wind power as a way to reduce the energy cost of making biodiesel or ethanol. Both result in CO2 emissions. Biodiesel and Ethanol still have that basic C6H12O6 carbohydrate structure. Only straight Hydrogen burns into water vapor. Wind, solar, and hydro can all be used to generate electricity to make hydrogen with no pollution. Bio-anything will still burn Carbon and make more CO2, even if it is offset by the plants that are used recycling the CO2. This will probably go around for another 20-30 years before CO2 is taken out of the loop, if then. Right now, China is coming up fast as the biggest polluter in the world, so we can get clean and they will take up the slack on making pollution. Bill Baka |
#923
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Ride an SUB not an SUV
"Bill" wrote in message .. . drydem wrote: On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill wrote: drydem wrote: I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the hydrogen powered electric generators) . On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar cells??? Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night. So they are not by themselves an alternate power solution since they can't provide power on demand. Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award. That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps. Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a point where they provide an adequate storage capacity for our on demand electric utility power If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all have electric cars. |
#924
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Ride an SUB not an SUV
George Conklin wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message .. . drydem wrote: On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill wrote: drydem wrote: I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the hydrogen powered electric generators) . On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar cells??? Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night. So they are not by themselves an alternate power solution since they can't provide power on demand. Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award. That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps. Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a point where they provide an adequate storage capacity for our on demand electric utility power If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all have electric cars. Read up on "Ultra caps". They have virtually no degradation with charge/discharge cycles and rival the best batteries in energy storage. We don't all have electric cars because everyone seems to want a few hundred horsepower under their right foot. As for power grid use this type of cap will stay charged for months due to it's new technology. Bill (no BS this time) Baka |
#925
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Ride an SUB not an SUV
On Apr 29, 6:22 pm, Bill wrote:
drydem wrote: On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill wrote: drydem wrote: I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the hydrogen powered electric generators) . On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar cells??? Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night. So they are not by themselves an alternate power solution since they can't provide power on demand. Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award. That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps. Duh. I don't think even Lithion-ion batteries would be a viable solution for a public utility power grid unless it was limited to powering something with a low power drain - e.g. land line telephone circuitry. Ultra-capacitors[1] - from the little that I heard they sounded like high voltage/hi power/low leakage capacitors. I was never able to figure out how much power those things could handle or how they would be configured to scaled up power wise. Do you know? What I'd like to know is their lifespan vs Lithion Ions, e.g. MTBF. When I first heard of them I just thought they were a fancy hi quality electrolyic capacitor - being very old school - the first thing I thought about was cap leakage ( caps unlike batteries can't hold a charge for too due to leakage ) I suppose they company is using some sort of power transistor shunting device to limit cap leakage - how long it would work I'm not sure. Controlling the current and voltage levels is one of the engineering challenges in making a Hi voltage Hi current Ultra cap. [1] Ultracapicator are a electrical storage device by EEStor (Texas) ultracapacitors store energy in an electrical field between two closely spaced conductors, or plates. When voltage is applied, an electric charge builds up on each plate. A composition of the barium- titanate powders is used to store voltage--in the range of 1,200 to 3,500 volts. EEStor claims that an ultracap can store about 280 watt hours per kilogram. ZENN Motors , a maker of low-speed electric vehicles, is planning to use Ultracap in its product line. ZENN Motors is one of EEStor's investors. source. http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page1/ Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a point where they provide an adequate storage capacity for our on demand electric utility power needs so a solar array and electric battery array system can't be scaled up for an electric power grid/utility solution. Electric batteries also have a limited lifespan which drives up the cost of a solar array electric generation system. Look up "Ultra-caps" and you will see where the future of electric power storage is going. I hope this ultracap technology thingy works out. I would be nice to run the laptop for 24hr straight without having to recharge it. Hydrogen fuel cells via hydrogen electric generators can provides electric power on demand. Also hydrogen fuel cells and electric generators can be scaled up engineering wise to theoretically solve power needs of an electric utility grid. Hydrogen could also be created by wind generators or a hydro electric turbine. If the combustion of hydrogen does not produce radioactive waste or CO2 emission either. You're preaching to the choir with me. When I saw the hydrogen genny at the solar decathlon was really taken aback It was so awesomely cool... .geez I want one of those!!!!! That's a Jimmy Neutron home!!! Theoretically, one might use solar/wind power as a way to reduce the energy cost of making biodiesel or ethanol. Both result in CO2 emissions. Biodiesel and Ethanol still have that basic C6H12O6 carbohydrate structure. Only straight Hydrogen burns into water vapor. Wind, solar, and hydro can all be used to generate electricity to make hydrogen with no pollution. Bio-anything will still burn Carbon and make more CO2, even if it is offset by the plants that are used recycling the CO2. This will probably go around for another 20-30 years before CO2 is taken out of the loop, if then. Right now, China is coming up fast as the biggest polluter in the world, so we can get clean and they will take up the slack on making pollution. Bill Baka yeah... you're right. sigh. but I'm soo use to tankin' up the car... Some habits are hard to break... Walter |
#926
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Ride an SUB not an SUV
drydem wrote:
On Apr 29, 6:22 pm, Bill wrote: drydem wrote: On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill wrote: drydem wrote: I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the hydrogen powered electric generators) . On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar cells??? Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night. So they are not by themselves an alternate power solution since they can't provide power on demand. Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award. That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps. Duh. I don't think even Lithion-ion batteries would be a viable solution for a public utility power grid unless it was limited to powering something with a low power drain - e.g. land line telephone circuitry. Right now Lithium batteries are way too expensive so that takes them out of the loop financially. Ultra-capacitors[1] - from the little that I heard they sounded like high voltage/hi power/low leakage capacitors. I was never able to figure out how much power those things could handle or how they would be configured to scaled up power wise. Do you know? What I'd like to know is their lifespan vs Lithion Ions, e.g. MTBF. When I first heard of them I just thought they were a fancy hi quality electrolyic capacitor - being very old school - the first thing I thought about was cap leakage ( caps unlike batteries can't hold a charge for too due to leakage ) I suppose they company is using some sort of power transistor shunting device to limit cap leakage - how long it would work I'm not sure. Controlling the current and voltage levels is one of the engineering challenges in making a Hi voltage Hi current Ultra cap. What I can tell you without searching is that they were first conceived as a way to store energy for computers and the CPU current surges, so the first ones were Farads, not microFarads, at 2 volts or so. Lately there has been research on stacking them in huge arrays to store energy for electric buses and other vehicle applications. Bicycles too. They are inherently very low leakage and capable of big bursts of current, so they have been proposed 'so far' as battery 'helpers', among other things. [1] Ultracapicator are a electrical storage device by EEStor (Texas) ultracapacitors store energy in an electrical field between two closely spaced conductors, or plates. When voltage is applied, an electric charge builds up on each plate. A composition of the barium- titanate powders is used to store voltage--in the range of 1,200 to 3,500 volts. EEStor claims that an ultracap can store about 280 watt hours per kilogram. ZENN Motors , a maker of low-speed electric vehicles, is planning to use Ultracap in its product line. ZENN Motors is one of EEStor's investors. source. http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/page1/ Those guys are not the inventors, but just a start-up making big claims. Ultra-caps are, for now, low voltage and need to be stacked to get any real voltage, so your source may be in for a lawsuit or two by tagging their product 'Ultra-caps'. Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a point where they provide an adequate storage capacity for our on demand electric utility power needs so a solar array and electric battery array system can't be scaled up for an electric power grid/utility solution. Electric batteries also have a limited lifespan which drives up the cost of a solar array electric generation system. Look up "Ultra-caps" and you will see where the future of electric power storage is going. I hope this ultracap technology thingy works out. I would be nice to run the laptop for 24hr straight without having to recharge it. It is headed there. There is very little news and horn-blowing right now since they are still doing a lot of basic research, but these are newer even than the organic capacitors 'Oscons?' that came out about 10 years ago. I used some of those in a 1998 engineering project but never got to see the finished product since I was 'pushing' the Chinese design house too hard to meet the specs they said they could meet. I got the boot from that consulting job for trying too hard to do my job, and make the Chinese do theirs. Some things you just can't win. Hydrogen fuel cells via hydrogen electric generators can provides electric power on demand. Also hydrogen fuel cells and electric generators can be scaled up engineering wise to theoretically solve power needs of an electric utility grid. Hydrogen could also be created by wind generators or a hydro electric turbine. If the combustion of hydrogen does not produce radioactive waste or CO2 emission either. You're preaching to the choir with me. When I saw the hydrogen genny at the solar decathlon was really taken aback It was so awesomely cool... .geez I want one of those!!!!! That's a Jimmy Neutron home!!! And how big was the solar array to make that Hydrogen? Theoretically, one might use solar/wind power as a way to reduce the energy cost of making biodiesel or ethanol. Both result in CO2 emissions. Biodiesel and Ethanol still have that basic C6H12O6 carbohydrate structure. Only straight Hydrogen burns into water vapor. Wind, solar, and hydro can all be used to generate electricity to make hydrogen with no pollution. Bio-anything will still burn Carbon and make more CO2, even if it is offset by the plants that are used recycling the CO2. This will probably go around for another 20-30 years before CO2 is taken out of the loop, if then. Right now, China is coming up fast as the biggest polluter in the world, so we can get clean and they will take up the slack on making pollution. Bill Baka yeah... you're right. sigh. but I'm soo use to tankin' up the car... Some habits are hard to break... Walter Yeah, I'm with you on the tanking up, but my hot rod Chrysler takes 26 gallons of premium so it is getting close to $100 a fill up, hence it sits there wanting to be driven but waiting for cheaper fill ups. Even driving my Mazda or Mitsubishi 4 bangers is getting painful, so I am biking to see my friends unless they want to pick me up, which one does, in his Lincoln no less. He claims it gets 17/25 MPG so it isn't that bad, and is actually better than some new SUVs. His money. Bill Baka |
#927
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Ride an SUB not an SUV
"Bill" wrote in message t... George Conklin wrote: "Bill" wrote in message .. . drydem wrote: On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill wrote: drydem wrote: I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the hydrogen powered electric generators) . On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar cells??? Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night. So they are not by themselves an alternate power solution since they can't provide power on demand. Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award. That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps. Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a point where they provide an adequate storage capacity for our on demand electric utility power If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all have electric cars. Read up on "Ultra caps". They have virtually no degradation with charge/discharge cycles and rival the best batteries in energy storage. We don't all have electric cars because everyone seems to want a few hundred horsepower under their right foot. As for power grid use this type of cap will stay charged for months due to it's new technology. Bill (no BS this time) Baka Drivel. |
#928
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Ride an SUB not an SUV
George Conklin wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message t... George Conklin wrote: "Bill" wrote in message .. . drydem wrote: On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill wrote: drydem wrote: I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the hydrogen powered electric generators) . On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar cells??? Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night. So they are not by themselves an alternate power solution since they can't provide power on demand. Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award. That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps. Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a point where they provide an adequate storage capacity for our on demand electric utility power If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all have electric cars. Read up on "Ultra caps". They have virtually no degradation with charge/discharge cycles and rival the best batteries in energy storage. We don't all have electric cars because everyone seems to want a few hundred horsepower under their right foot. As for power grid use this type of cap will stay charged for months due to it's new technology. Bill (no BS this time) Baka Drivel. I don't care if you believe me or not. These things are measured in 100's of Farads, not Micro-Farads. Find your own info. I'm not giving pointers to the obvious. Bill Baka |
#929
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Ride an SUB not an SUV
"Bill" wrote in message et... George Conklin wrote: "Bill" wrote in message t... George Conklin wrote: "Bill" wrote in message .. . drydem wrote: On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill wrote: drydem wrote: I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the hydrogen powered electric generators) . On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar cells??? Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night. So they are not by themselves an alternate power solution since they can't provide power on demand. Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award. That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps. Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a point where they provide an adequate storage capacity for our on demand electric utility power If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all have electric cars. Read up on "Ultra caps". They have virtually no degradation with charge/discharge cycles and rival the best batteries in energy storage. We don't all have electric cars because everyone seems to want a few hundred horsepower under their right foot. As for power grid use this type of cap will stay charged for months due to it's new technology. Bill (no BS this time) Baka Drivel. I don't care if you believe me or not. These things are measured in 100's of Farads, not Micro-Farads. Find your own info. I'm not giving pointers to the obvious. Bill Baka Quick.....call up Toyota and tell them about this. |
#930
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Ride an SUB not an SUV
George Conklin wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message et... George Conklin wrote: "Bill" wrote in message .net... George Conklin wrote: "Bill" wrote in message . net... drydem wrote: On Apr 26, 6:32 am, Bill wrote: drydem wrote: I've seen hydrogen gas created by electrolysis at the last solar decathlon. A large solar array was used to create hydrogen from water via electrolysis and it was store in a hydrogen fuel cell storage facility (which acted like a battery for the hydrogen powered electric generators) . On a more massive scale, one study showed that if 100 square miles of Arizona desert could be covered in present day solar cells it could easily power the entire country. I wonder if the $400 billion or so spent in Iraq would have paid for the mass production of that many solar cells??? Solar cells can't store power and don't provide power at night. So they are not by themselves an alternate power solution since they can't provide power on demand. Please don't give me ammo to give you the "Duh" award. That is why there are battery banks and Ultra-caps. Unfortunately, electric battery technology is not at a point where they provide an adequate storage capacity for our on demand electric utility power If batteries were as good as the above poster thinks, we would all have electric cars. Read up on "Ultra caps". They have virtually no degradation with charge/discharge cycles and rival the best batteries in energy storage. We don't all have electric cars because everyone seems to want a few hundred horsepower under their right foot. As for power grid use this type of cap will stay charged for months due to it's new technology. Bill (no BS this time) Baka Drivel. I don't care if you believe me or not. These things are measured in 100's of Farads, not Micro-Farads. Find your own info. I'm not giving pointers to the obvious. Bill Baka Quick.....call up Toyota and tell them about this. They're probably evaluating them already. An ultra-cap does have some advantages over the batteries. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
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