Arthritis, advice please...

Well, for the past 6 weeks I've been off my bike because of knee pain.
I went to the doc. who diagnosed osteo-arthritis (SP?). I've been for
an Xray, and have a future appointment with the physio. I've also
started to take a vaiety of supplements (cod liver oil, glucosamine,
green lipped muscle).

I'm desperate to get back on board, any ideas? (Any!)

In article . com,
" writes:
|
| Well, for the past 6 weeks I've been off my bike because of knee pain.
| I went to the doc. who diagnosed osteo-arthritis (SP?). I've been for
| an Xray, and have a future appointment with the physio. I've also
| started to take a vaiety of supplements (cod liver oil, glucosamine,
| green lipped muscle).
|
| I'm desperate to get back on board, any ideas? (Any!)

I shall now get flamed :-)

If it really is osteo-arthritis, none of that flummery will help.
The X-ray and physiotherapist should be able to give decent advice.
But odds on the answer is a problem with your riding position.

In my experience, a huge proportion of inexperienced cyclists and
a significant proportion of experienced ones get knee pain when
attempting to ride in the currently favoured semi-crouched position
with a low saddle and high cadency. It is entirely unnatural,
requires considerable adaptation, and not all people can adapt to it.
Knee pain is only one of the problems it causes.

You could try a traditional upright position, with a much lower
cadency, and see if that helps. Alternatively, you could see if
walking UP a steepish hill (1:5 to 1:3) causes the problem, because
it is essentially equivalent; if that doesn't cause the pain, then
a traditional position and cadency (30-50) may help. Pity about
the windage and, if you are over 6' tall, you will have difficulty
getting a bicycle large enough, but ....

But, for God's sake, DON'T try that on your existing bicycle!
You really DO need the different position and higher saddle if you
are to use a high force, low cadency, technique. You can do serious
damage in 15 minutes by using one technique on a bicycle set up for
the other (I did it the other way round).


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

wrote:
Well, for the past 6 weeks I've been off my bike because of knee pain.
I went to the doc. who diagnosed osteo-arthritis (SP?). I've been for
an Xray, and have a future appointment with the physio. I've also
started to take a vaiety of supplements (cod liver oil, glucosamine,
green lipped muscle).

I'm desperate to get back on board, any ideas? (Any!)


Sorry to hear that.
(1) Your GP probably hasn't got a clue what's really the matter.
(2) The _cycling problem_ /may/ be the result of severe inflammation in the knee which
causes it to swell and tear the tendons. These take 6-ish weeks to recover.
(3) If you're on any serious medications find out EXACTLY how best to use them as
instructions are often patchy and vague. (Some work for a few hours there and then,
others over a longer period. Some treat symptoms, some causes. Some are meant to be
taken continuously others as-and-when.)
(4) If you get some positive prognosis then keep a diary to record ups-and-downs.
(5) Insist on seeing a specialist. By the time this eventually happens you'll have a load
of history and detail plus lots of questions such as "Is this the start of all my joints
rotting?" or "Will I ever be able to cycle again?"





I've just had a very similar experience(gout and F***ING abysmal doctor who amongst other
incompetencies says you don't get gout in knees!) and been off 7 weeks and just beginning
to do gentle 8 miles every day or other day but still can't dance.

Q:Anybody know if an evening-bike-ride-then-bed is a 'bad' thing for abused (but nearly
recovered) tendons compared with a daytime excursion? I seemed to suffer the other day as
a result but it may just have been one of those 'good day'-'bad day' things.


--
Peter Fox
Beer, dancing, cycling and lots more at www.eminent.demon.co.uk

On 1 Aug, 19:35, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

You could try a traditional upright position, with a much lower
cadency, and see if that helps.

I suffer from slight knee pain, never very serious, but it rarely goes
away completely. GP summarily diagnosed it as arthritis, told me to
stop running, which improved things. Swimming crawl makes it worse,
going for a 14 mile hilly walk got rid of it completely for a while,
so I'm not entirely convinced about the arthritis. Glucosamine did
nothing for me.

Can you explain the low cadency bit? I ride with saddle high enough to
more or less fully straighten my leg and this certainly helps. My
cadency is low (prob. 50 - 60 if I'm not consciously trying) and I've
been trying to increase it for a while, with moderate success, but am
getting the feeling that this makes my knees worse. I thought high
cadency was a Good Thing - more strokes, less power per stroke, less
damage.

BTW I'm 6' 2 and have no problem getting the saddle high enough.

Rob

In article om,
writes:
|
| You could try a traditional upright position, with a much lower
| cadency, and see if that helps.
|
| I suffer from slight knee pain, never very serious, but it rarely goes
| away completely. GP summarily diagnosed it as arthritis, told me to
| stop running, which improved things. Swimming crawl makes it worse,
| going for a 14 mile hilly walk got rid of it completely for a while,
| so I'm not entirely convinced about the arthritis. Glucosamine did
| nothing for me.

Possibly cartilage damage, which is my problem. It is VERY common,
and is typically caused by abuse of the knees. In my case, it was
caused by the torture, sorry, PT and punishments at school - and,
MOST unusually, has got gradually better from age 20 to 60.

| Can you explain the low cadency bit? I ride with saddle high enough to
| more or less fully straighten my leg and this certainly helps. My
| cadency is low (prob. 50 - 60 if I'm not consciously trying) and I've
| been trying to increase it for a while, with moderate success, but am
| getting the feeling that this makes my knees worse. I thought high
| cadency was a Good Thing - more strokes, less power per stroke, less
| damage.

You have been reading the racing propaganda! Yes, I have exactly the
same experience.

You need a high cadency to handle a racing crouch - for reasons that
I would rather skip. If you are riding traditionally, however, the
higher the cadency the more you are likely to 'jerk' - bad news. If
you look at walkers and runners, you will find that they use a cadency
of 30-60, and vary the stride length. This is what we have adapted to
over 3 million years of being an upright biped.

The matter of power per stroke is obvious crap (in an absolute sense),
if you consider a Sherpa or Para lifting a total of 150 Kg up a steep
hill. Even I, when hill walking, lift 100+ Kg. Knee damage isn't a
problem going UP, but the cadency is typically only 30 - and may be
less - and the walker straightens the knees every stroke.

| BTW I'm 6' 2 and have no problem getting the saddle high enough.

'Tain't typically the saddle, but the handlebars. It you don't get
very close to upright, you can't straighten your leg because of
hamstring length issues. A semi-crouch also causes other problems,
which are irrelevant here.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I'm desperate to get back on board, any ideas? (Any!)

Knees are complicated things, so it might be worth while finding out if the
doc has definately diagnosed it correctly. If the doctor has made a best
guess kind of diagnosis consider going private, where they throw your money
at the problem to find out what's really the problem.

In article ,
Mark pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_ reply*.com.invalid writes:
|
| I'm desperate to get back on board, any ideas? (Any!)
|
| Knees are complicated things, so it might be worth while finding out if the
| doc has definately diagnosed it correctly. If the doctor has made a best
| guess kind of diagnosis consider going private, where they throw your money
| at the problem to find out what's really the problem.

Most physiotherapists are private nowadays, like dentists. One that
deals with active people (e.g. 'sports' injuries) will probably give
excellent advice and cost under 50 quid a session. It's worth it!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

wrote:
Well, for the past 6 weeks I've been off my bike because of knee pain.
I went to the doc. who diagnosed osteo-arthritis (SP?). I've been for
an Xray, and have a future appointment with the physio. I've also
started to take a vaiety of supplements (cod liver oil, glucosamine,
green lipped muscle).

I'm desperate to get back on board, any ideas? (Any!)


Many knee problems on a bike are caused by an imbalance of the muscles
pulling the joints out of alignment, e.g. iliotibial band syndrome. If
this is the case stretches and exercises will help.

I wouldn't presume to diagnose your particular problem but I would
recommend that you see a specialist. In my experience GPs say the first
thing that comes into their head and don't correctly factor in abnormal
activity such as cycling 100km a week.

Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article om,
writes:

You could try a traditional upright position, with a much lower
cadency, and see if that helps.

Can you explain the low cadency bit?

You have been reading the racing propaganda! Yes, I have exactly the
same experience.

You need a high cadency to handle a racing crouch - for reasons that
I would rather skip. ..................


BTW I'm 6' 2 and have no problem getting the saddle high enough.

'Tain't typically the saddle, but the handlebars. It you don't get
very close to upright, you can't straighten your leg because of
hamstring length issues. A semi-crouch also causes other problems,
which are irrelevant here.


As I understand Nick's views, the bike needs to have a seat-handlebar
relationship shown on things like the Pashley Roadster or the Pedersen. You
can't do this easily with most "drop touring" machines, as bringing the bars
back and up that far just doesn't work, even with extra stems, bars, etc..


Pashley he
http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/roadster-classic.html
Though I suspect the chap in the top left picture has the bars lower than
Nick would advocate.

Pedersen he
http://www.pedersenbicycles.com/ergonomics.htm
http://www.pedersen-bike.dk/
http://www.dursley-pedersen.net/

I've ridden a Pedersen with its very upright position, bars close to body,
hammock saddle, etc. .
Its a totally different riding experience to a "racing crouch" as Nick
describes it. Very stately, encourages the slower cadence Nick is
advocating.
I didn't ride it far enough to know how my legs would feel, or to get an
impression of how much slower it was over real journeys than my usual
dropped touring bar arrangement (obviously wind frontal area is much larger,
so that alone would make flat cruising speed lower).




- Nigel


--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

In article ,
"Nigel Cliffe" writes:
|
| As I understand Nick's views, the bike needs to have a seat-handlebar
| relationship shown on things like the Pashley Roadster or the Pedersen. You
| can't do this easily with most "drop touring" machines, as bringing the bars
| back and up that far just doesn't work, even with extra stems, bars, etc..

Right. But you can't do it even on a Pashley for someone of over 6',
though the largest Pashley is probably ridable.

And it's not just MY views - they are the views of many people from
the heyday of cycling (the 1920s).

| Its a totally different riding experience to a "racing crouch" as Nick
| describes it. Very stately, encourages the slower cadence Nick is
| advocating.

Precisely. Thugh you can shove down damn hard, which isn't precisely
stately :-)

| I didn't ride it far enough to know how my legs would feel, or to get an
| impression of how much slower it was over real journeys than my usual
| dropped touring bar arrangement (obviously wind frontal area is much larger,
| so that alone would make flat cruising speed lower).

10-14% slower, due to the windage. Unless you are one of the people
who find it ergonomically more efficient, when it may be faster.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.