Fixed cup coming loose on old Italian style bottom bracket.

A Muzi wrote in message ...
For cartridge systems, tools such as the Tacx have finally
brought a facile secure method of torque to a job that was
near-impossible a couple of years ago. We struggled for
years with those awful Lifu, Park and Shimano tols which
slipped both on installation and more painfully on removal.


Richard Chan wrote:
Did you missed one other "C"ompany's tool(s) that also has this issue?

I left them out for a reason.
The Record/Chorus tool is very small and very positive.
Bolts to a spindle with the crank bolt and never slips.
Drive it with a 24" adjustable wrench or a socket on a
torque wrench without difficulty.

We used to drive the Veloce/Centaur type with a Var#16
before we had the nice Tacx tools. Tedious but not bloody
knuckles. I do indeed like the Tacx tool for Veloce much
better. But with the other types of BB it's necessary beyond
desirable.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi wrote in message ...
A Muzi wrote in message ...

Richard Chan wrote:
Did you missed one other "C"ompany's tool(s) that also has this issue?

I left them out for a reason.
The Record/Chorus tool is very small and very positive.
Bolts to a spindle with the crank bolt and never slips.
Drive it with a 24" adjustable wrench or a socket on a
torque wrench without difficulty.

We used to drive the Veloce/Centaur type with a Var#16
before we had the nice Tacx tools. Tedious but not bloody
knuckles. I do indeed like the Tacx tool for Veloce much
better. But with the other types of BB it's necessary beyond
desirable.

Apologies then. I was referring to the Campy BB lockring tool that I
used to torque my BB-7700 fixed cup. It slips just like any other. I
ended up back to the Shimano with the "lip". Please don't any one tell
me about the Park (el crapo). Since my Wilier uses ENG BB (yes ENG),
the cup doesn't have to be as tight.

If you are talking about splined tools, I used a rear quick release to
lock them down. The tool is cheap, the QR is free.

Richard Chan wrote:
Did you missed one other "C"ompany's tool(s) that also has this issue?

(am)I left them out for a reason.
The Record/Chorus tool is very small and very positive.
Bolts to a spindle with the crank bolt and never slips.
Drive it with a 24" adjustable wrench or a socket on a
torque wrench without difficulty.
We used to drive the Veloce/Centaur type with a Var#16
before we had the nice Tacx tools. Tedious but not bloody
knuckles. I do indeed like the Tacx tool for Veloce much
better. But with the other types of BB it's necessary beyond
desirable.

(rc) Apologies then. I was referring to the Campy BB
lockring tool that I
used to torque my BB-7700 fixed cup. It slips just like any other. I
ended up back to the Shimano with the "lip". Please don't any one tell
me about the Park (el crapo). Since my Wilier uses ENG BB (yes ENG),
the cup doesn't have to be as tight.

If you are talking about splined tools, I used a rear quick release to
lock them down. The tool is cheap, the QR is free.

Well then I apologize too. I thought we were only discussing
cartridge BBs.
I agree with you that the beautiful, long-wearing Campagnolo
712, 712.2, etc wrenches are great as 32mm headset tools
but the other end is the fast lane to a bloody knuckle. Var
#16 only for me!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Richard- Since my Wilier uses ENG BB (yes ENG),
the cup doesn't have to be as tight. BRBR

Not surprizing, Is that frameset made in Europe??



Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message ...
Richard- Since my Wilier uses ENG BB (yes ENG),
the cup doesn't have to be as tight. BRBR

Not surprizing, Is that frameset made in Europe??

I believe it is. I am very careful on details and looked at the
dropouts in particular. The Taiwanese mass produced OEMs almost share
the same type of dropouts which this doesn't have. I bought this 2
years ago (2001/2? model, Easton UL tubeset/carbon seatstays). Luckily
I know my stuff because I rushed the delivery (Colorado Cyclist) and
didn't have them prep the frame. The BB shell threads were binding
before I my LBS prep'd it. I told them NOT to assume ITL. Both CC and
even the importer insist that it was ITL!!

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
bill I take it that you don't consider the Park HCW-4 a proper fixed cup
tool? BRBR

There are better tools, like the Campagnolo one..

I can get ya one but they are very expensive. i think a trip down to a decent
bike shop, tand they can use theirs.

I did a bit more looking and finally found this. Is this it?

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...em_id=CA-793/A

$200 is a bit pricey for me.

There were some others (Hozan, Stein, Universal) that appear to address the wrench
slipping problem for quite a bit less ($36-$85) though none down in the $15-$16 range
of the easy slip HCW-4. I notice Campy also makes an easy slip BB fixed cup wrench.
I don't plan to be doing this often or I might look into getting one of these cheaper ones.

--Bill Davidson
--
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bill- I did a bit more looking and finally found this. Is this it?
BRBR

That is it and $200 ain't bad...for a shop tool that will take many years of
shop 'abuse' w/o failing.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

bill I take it that you don't consider the Park HCW-4 a proper fixed
cup
tool? BRBR

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
There are better tools, like the Campagnolo one..
I can get ya one but they are very expensive. i think a trip down to a
decent
bike shop, tand they can use theirs.

Bill Davidson wrote:
I did a bit more looking and finally found this. Is this it?
http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...em_id=CA-793/A
$200 is a bit pricey for me.
There were some others (Hozan, Stein, Universal) that appear to address
the wrench
slipping problem for quite a bit less ($36-$85) though none down in the
$15-$16 range
of the easy slip HCW-4. I notice Campy also makes an easy slip BB fixed
cup wrench.
I don't plan to be doing this often or I might look into getting one of
these cheaper ones.


Which all speaks to Peter's comment. We don't _just_ have a
$200 Campagnolo right cup tool, we have three of them. And
a few Var, each with a full set of changeable jaws, a Zeus,
a Kingsbridge and the orginal British Raleigh right cup
tools as well. Plus a few hefty vises, fixtures to do that
job in mid-air, experience and a warranty. You get the
benefits of our investment in tooling and personnel for a
buck or two. While you wait, no less.

I often use the analogy of basement engine builders who are
still happy to send out cam grinding. It is not cost
effective to do just one.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi wrote:
You get the benefits of our investment in tooling and personnel for a
buck or two. While you wait, no less.

I often use the analogy of basement engine builders who are still happy
to send out cam grinding. It is not cost effective to do just one.

It's been my experience that no labor at any bike shop is just a buck or two.
$5 seems to be a minimum. A while back I had to have a regina freewheel
removed from a used wheel I had and it cost me $6 for 5 seconds of work.

That said, this was the first time I attempted a bottom bracket. The last time
(about 17 years ago), I had a shop do it because I was afraid of it. The thing
is, I do derive a certain satisfaction from doing things myself. It's not so much
about saving money. Even with my relatively cheap tools, I doubt I've saved
much money overall between having to pay retail for parts and tools. I do,
however, really like knowing how to do everything myself and it's nice to be able
to fix something when the shops are closed. Yes, sometimes I make mistakes
but who hasn't the first time they did something? That's part of the learning
process. Yes, sometimes my inferior tools make the job more difficult. That's life.

So far, I'm still having my wheels built and trued professionally but at some point, I
plan to take that on too.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

Support the Electronic Frontier Foundation
http://www.eff.org
Petition Congress to stop the RIAA lawsuits
http://www.eff.org/share/petition/

A Muzi wrote:
You get the benefits of our investment in tooling and personnel for a
buck or two. While you wait, no less.
I often use the analogy of basement engine builders who are still
happy to send out cam grinding. It is not cost effective to do just one.

Bill Davidson wrote:
It's been my experience that no labor at any bike shop is just a buck or
two.
$5 seems to be a minimum. A while back I had to have a regina freewheel
removed from a used wheel I had and it cost me $6 for 5 seconds of work.

That said, this was the first time I attempted a bottom bracket. The
last time
(about 17 years ago), I had a shop do it because I was afraid of it.
The thing
is, I do derive a certain satisfaction from doing things myself. It's
not so much
about saving money. Even with my relatively cheap tools, I doubt I've
saved
much money overall between having to pay retail for parts and tools. I do,
however, really like knowing how to do everything myself and it's nice
to be able
to fix something when the shops are closed. Yes, sometimes I make mistakes
but who hasn't the first time they did something? That's part of the
learning
process. Yes, sometimes my inferior tools make the job more difficult.
That's life.

So far, I'm still having my wheels built and trued professionally but at
some point, I
plan to take that on too.

I'm all for that. You'll get a much better return on your
investment of time and tooling building wheels than any
other aspect of bicycle service.

And I am encouraging of home bicycle service. Saving money
is nice but you get so much more than that - the experience
itself and then confidence riding something you _know_ is
right. As they say 'priceless'.

As often noted here there are some shops ( or clusters of
them, according to "Jonesy", who was jerked around by a
succession of assholes.) who cannot seem to manage either
civility or competence. But I know enough shop owners to
say that good shops still exist. A competent honest LBS can
be immensely helpful with just the sort of problem you had -
a quick job that requires an expensive tool. And not
everyone gouges or insults or disabuses their customers.

Geez, $6 to remove a freewheel? $5 minimum? Aren't there
any other shops in the neighborhood?

Question for shop owners - how much to spin off a splined
freewheel in a vise (barring disasters)? $1 here.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971