Feel like your wheel building skills are inferior? Redeem your REIbux!

Stopped by REI to get some Ritchey True Grips, which are no longer
stocked (assholes), ended up getting a blinky and checking out the
Fusion city bike once again. Yeah, it's a deal considering the bits.
Absentmindedly plucked the spokes as I was checking out the new
cooling fins for the roller brakes and was appalled. Near full
octaves. Wiggle. Yech.

To think that I'd built a pair of obnoxiously stout 630g+ DM18s for
the Dew the past week and had been embarrassed that I'd had to
tension five spokes on one side 1/4 turn more to deal with a slight
warp and was questioning my skills--modest as they might be. I true by
ear, dial in within a 1/4 turn of happy and it's usually good forever--
vertical true comes with pitch. I lost my good Park wrench years ago,
but my **** carded one I got for 99c in /88 makes my hand hurt at
exact 100kilos per square knuckle!

Anyway, couldn't believe that a $800 bike had veels like that--maybe
they had to use the *old* machines due to the funky hubs, eh?

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:07:55 -0700 (PDT), landotter wrote:

Stopped by REI to get some Ritchey True Grips, which are no longer
stocked (assholes), ended up getting a blinky and checking out the
Fusion city bike once again. Yeah, it's a deal considering the bits.
Absentmindedly plucked the spokes as I was checking out the new
cooling fins for the roller brakes and was appalled. Near full
octaves. Wiggle. Yech.

To think that I'd built a pair of obnoxiously stout 630g+ DM18s for
the Dew the past week and had been embarrassed that I'd had to
tension five spokes on one side 1/4 turn more to deal with a slight
warp and was questioning my skills--modest as they might be. I true by
ear, dial in within a 1/4 turn of happy and it's usually good forever--
vertical true comes with pitch. I lost my good Park wrench years ago,
but my **** carded one I got for 99c in /88 makes my hand hurt at
exact 100kilos per square knuckle!

Anyway, couldn't believe that a $800 bike had veels like that--maybe
they had to use the *old* machines due to the funky hubs, eh?

Sure seems odd. All the machine built stuff I've seen was true and even, but
tensioned too low.

Ron

landotter Wrote:
Stopped by REI to get some Ritchey True Grips, which are no longer
stocked (assholes), ended up getting a blinky and checking out the
Fusion city bike once again. Yeah, it's a deal considering the bits.
Absentmindedly plucked the spokes as I was checking out the new
cooling fins for the roller brakes and was appalled. Near full
octaves. Wiggle. Yech.

To think that I'd built a pair of obnoxiously stout 630g+ DM18s for
the Dew the past week and had been embarrassed that I'd had to
tension five spokes on one side 1/4 turn more to deal with a slight
warp and was questioning my skills--modest as they might be. I true by
ear, dial in within a 1/4 turn of happy and it's usually good
forever--
vertical true comes with pitch. I lost my good Park wrench years ago,
but my **** carded one I got for 99c in /88 makes my hand hurt at
exact 100kilos per square knuckle!

Anyway, couldn't believe that a $800 bike had veels like that--maybe
they had to use the *old* machines due to the funky hubs, eh?
REI corporate makes the choices of what's stocked and what's not....
mostly based on what sells (or what they think will sell). So getting
some $5 MTB grips isn't a major concern for anyone in the store.... but
they can order them for a member.
I once worked for REI and found that most of the wheels were a little
out, but not as bad as what you experienced on the Fusion sample...
WOW!!!
Both of the hubs on Fusion are big & heavy, but there are machines out
there to handle them..... maybe not handled well by REI's source. I
agree with Ron Sonic that most machine built wheels are pretty close on
tension balance... but not usually stabilized or have sufficient
tension.
As you mentioned, Fusion has a lot of nice bits for commuting.... and
for the price would be hard to beat. You know enough to take the wheels
up to proper tension and tension balance... plus stabilizing them... but
I know that at least one REI bicycle shop manager also knows about that
level of detail.
I have built wheels for some past and current REI bicycle shop
employees, including a current shop manager. They all know how to
build, true, tension balance, and stabilize wheels. Time handling the
pocesses is why they don't do it.


--
daveornee

izzit better to store wheel's spokes loosely
or store wheels Paris-Roubaix ready?

On Mar 26, 12:00*am, RonSonic wrote:
On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:07:55 -0700 (PDT), landotter wrote:
Stopped by REI to get some Ritchey True Grips, which are no longer
stocked (assholes), ended up getting a blinky and checking out the
Fusion city bike once again. Yeah, it's a deal considering the bits.
Absentmindedly plucked the spokes as I was checking out the new
cooling fins for the roller brakes and was appalled. Near full
octaves. Wiggle. Yech.

To think that I'd built a pair of obnoxiously stout 630g+ DM18s for
the Dew the past week and had been embarrassed *that I'd had to
tension five spokes on one side 1/4 turn more to deal with a slight
warp and was questioning my skills--modest as they might be. I true by
ear, dial in within a 1/4 turn of happy and it's usually good forever--
vertical true comes with pitch. I lost my good Park wrench years ago,
but my **** carded one I got for 99c in /88 makes my hand hurt at
exact 100kilos per square knuckle!

Anyway, couldn't believe that a $800 bike had veels like that--maybe
they had to use the *old* machines due to the funky hubs, eh?

Sure seems odd. All the machine built stuff I've seen was true and even, but
tensioned too low.

Machine built stuff is usually true both vertically and laterally, but
I usually find that the tension is a bit unbalanced by a 1/4 turn here
and there--if you're a stickler for such things. Indeed, most wheels
just need 1/2 to a full turn of the wrench and the spokes heads seated
and they're find. Just found the way-unevenness on the Fusion to be
startling to be honest--that and the fact that the wheel turned
straight. magic! It has the OEM Ace 19 rims by Alex, which are pretty
stiff and can tolerate some sloppy building, FWIW.

Machine built wheels have two problems in one. They cannot prevent
spoke twist and do not detect it before stress relief. For this
reason, machine built wheels are finished at tension low enough to
avoid significant spoke twist that increases rapidly as tension
becomes high. Uneveness in tension arises from spoke twist that was
relieved while the wheel was subsequently stress relieved.

I find odd that the manufacturers of wheel building machines have
ignored this problem or introduces ineffective methods to counter it.
That would be BMD and Holland Mechanics.

http://www.bmd.nl/pages/home
http://www.hollandmechanics.com/

Jobst Brandt

On Mar 26, 8:17*pm, wrote:
Machine built wheels have two problems in one. *They cannot prevent
spoke twist and do not detect it before stress relief. *For this
reason, machine built wheels are finished at tension low enough to
avoid significant spoke twist that increases rapidly as tension
becomes high. *Uneveness in tension arises from spoke twist that was
relieved while the wheel was subsequently stress relieved.

I find odd that the manufacturers of wheel building machines have
ignored this problem or introduces ineffective methods to counter it.
That would be BMD and Holland Mechanics.

http://www.bmd.nl/pages/homehttp://w...mechanics.com/

Jobst Brandt

What's the range on machine built spoke tension uneveness ?

Are wheels fine tuned by the LBS after delivery?

Is there a price level for new bikes with human made wheels over
machine made wheels?

When I plink new Fuji wheels for example, am I looking at machine or
human made wheels?

Cannondale?

datakoll Wrote:
On Mar 26, 8:17*pm, wrote:
Machine built wheels have two problems in one. *They cannot prevent
spoke twist and do not detect it before stress relief. *For this
reason, machine built wheels are finished at tension low enough to
avoid significant spoke twist that increases rapidly as tension
becomes high. *Uneveness in tension arises from spoke twist that was
relieved while the wheel was subsequently stress relieved.

I find odd that the manufacturers of wheel building machines have
ignored this problem or introduces ineffective methods to counter
it.
That would be BMD and Holland Mechanics.

http://www.bmd.nl/pages/homehttp://w...mechanics.com/

Jobst Brandt

What's the range on machine built spoke tension uneveness ?

Are wheels fine tuned by the LBS after delivery?

Is there a price level for new bikes with human made wheels over
machine made wheels?

When I plink new Fuji wheels for example, am I looking at machine or
human made wheels?

Cannondale?
Depends on who supplied the wheels to the OEM. I've got Fujis on my
floor with Shimano wheels, all hand built. Others with Alex rims and
Fuji branded hubs, probably machine built.
Dan Burkhart
www.boomerbicycle.ca


--
Dan Burkhart

On Mar 27, 8:33*am, Dan Burkhart Dan.Burkhart.36x...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com wrote:
datakoll Wrote:



On Mar 26, 8:17*pm, wrote:
Machine built wheels have two problems in one. *They cannot prevent
spoke twist and do not detect it before stress relief. *For this
reason, machine built wheels are finished at tension low enough to
avoid significant spoke twist that increases rapidly as tension
becomes high. *Uneveness in tension arises from spoke twist that was
relieved while the wheel was subsequently stress relieved.

I find odd that the manufacturers of wheel building machines have
ignored this problem or introduces ineffective methods to counter
it.
That would be BMD and Holland Mechanics.

http://www.bmd.nl/pages/homehttp://w...mechanics.com/

Jobst Brandt

What's the range on machine built spoke tension uneveness ?

Are wheels fine tuned by the LBS after delivery?

Is there a price level for new bikes with human made wheels over
machine made wheels?

When I plink new Fuji wheels for example, am I looking at machine or
human made wheels?

Cannondale?

Depends on who supplied the wheels to the OEM. I've got Fujis on my
floor with Shimano wheels, all hand built. Others with Alex rims and
Fuji branded hubs, probably machine built.
Dan Burkhartwww.boomerbicycle.ca

--
Dan Burkhart- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

LBS manager sez "probably machine built"? leads to "hard to tell them
apart."
Is that true? Difficult naming the wheel hand or machine built thru
visual inspection?

datakoll Wrote:
On Mar 27, 8:33*am, Dan Burkhart Dan.Burkhart.36x...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com wrote:
datakoll Wrote:



On Mar 26, 8:17*pm, wrote:
Machine built wheels have two problems in one. *They cannot
prevent
spoke twist and do not detect it before stress relief. *For this
reason, machine built wheels are finished at tension low enough
to
avoid significant spoke twist that increases rapidly as tension
becomes high. *Uneveness in tension arises from spoke twist that
was
relieved while the wheel was subsequently stress relieved.

I find odd that the manufacturers of wheel building machines
have
ignored this problem or introduces ineffective methods to
counter
it.
That would be BMD and Holland Mechanics.

http://www.bmd.nl/pages/homehttp://w...mechanics.com/

Jobst Brandt

What's the range on machine built spoke tension uneveness ?

Are wheels fine tuned by the LBS after delivery?

Is there a price level for new bikes with human made wheels over
machine made wheels?

When I plink new Fuji wheels for example, am I looking at machine
or
human made wheels?

Cannondale?

Depends on who supplied the wheels to the OEM. I've got Fujis on my
floor with Shimano wheels, all hand built. Others with Alex rims and
Fuji branded hubs, probably machine built.
Dan Burkhartwww.boomerbicycle.ca

--
Dan Burkhart- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

LBS manager sez "probably machine built"? leads to "hard to tell them
apart."
Is that true? Difficult naming the wheel hand or machine built thru
visual inspection?
Well, good hand builders can produce a consitently good product,
mediocre hand builders can produce a good wheel one day, a poor one the
next. Machine built wheels don't totally take human error out of the
equasion either. Just last week, I had to completely un-do and re-do a
new machine built wheel from one of my (usually reliable) suppliers.
Whoever laced it before popping it in the majic machine had put the long
spokes on the drive side and versa vise. I probably would have not have
noticed, but in trying to true and tension, actually broke two spokes at
the nipple on the drive side. the threads had been jammed hard enough
against the ends that they seized.
The consistency of quality on new bikes has more to do with the
quality control by the OEM and the LBS.
Since you mention Fuji, I'll just say their quality control is among
the best I've seen.
Dan Burkhart
www.boomerbicycle.ca


--
Dan Burkhart