Rethinking getting Surly Long Haul Trucker frame?

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:12:22 -0800 (PST), Dan O
wrote:

On Jan 25, 4:57 pm, J.B.Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:01:03 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
On Monday, November 28, 2011 1:32:42 PM UTC-6, Chalo wrote:
T?m Sherm?n wrote: Wonder why touring bicycles do not come equipped with centerstands? Because
there are more people likely to be turned off by the added cost, weight, or mere presence of a stand than there are who consider it to be a worthy feature? This is America, T?m. Automatic transmissions, "warm white" (non- white) CFLs, and department store HAUTL* bikes prevail in the marketplace, regardless of virtue or lack thereof. Many of us are able to develop, for lack of a better word, "refined" tastes without any corresponding improvement in overall judgment. Thus we have bike enthusiasts who reflexively avoid useful items like kickstands, fenders, reflectors and spoke protectors that could save them a passel of hassle. Chalo * Hideous Abomination Unto The Lord. Acronym to be used freely with or without attribution.

I don't recall kickstands working too well. The bike tends to tip over. I make sure I lean the bike against a
solid wall so it cannot tip over. Or just lay it on the ground so it can't fallover. Much better to be sure than take the risk of a bike falling over with a kickstand. And for touring with loaded panniers? Kickstands definitely do not work for that. Might as well get of your bike and intentionally throw it on the ground as hard as you can. Same effect as using a kickstand.

Strange that. Given that just about every other two wheel
transportation device comes with a kick stand fitted.

Perhaps if you had a bike with a proper kick stand mounting plate on
the chain stays just behind the bottom bracket where it both acts as a
chain stay bridge and as a kick stand attaching point it would be more
effective.


I don't have any kickstand on any of my current bikes (including
LHT). I have used a lot of different kickstands on a lot of different
bikes. They are certainly a convenience when it comes to parking the
bike - at least on flat, paved surfaces.

But if you park on other than flat, paved surfaces, there can be
issues - including as alluded to above, *thinking* the bike is
securely "stood", then having it topple.

I have also had problems with kickstands interfering and even
*injuring* me while riding the bike.

None of this is intended to discount anyone's valuation of a kickstand
and more power to them. For myself, the bike is mostly for riding,
parking is only *very* incidental, a kickstand is *only* good for
parking, and can lead to problems in both riding *and* parking (and
servicing, and... )

Look into the two legged stand. Made in Switzerland I think. The two
legs swing up and together and look much like a single kick stand
alongside the chain stay.When you swing it down it becomes two legs.

I agree that bikes are for riding; but you can't do it 24 hours a day,
or ride it into the department store, or, on most instances, take it
into the shop when you go to work. I always thought the stand was a
better solution rather then chucking it in the ditch, dropping it on
the sidewalk or...

Of course, chained to the light post does work pretty well :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:14:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, January 25, 2013 6:57:00 PM UTC-6, J. B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:01:03 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Monday, November 28, 2011 1:32:42 PM UTC-6, Chalo wrote: T?m Sherm?n wrote: Wonder why touring bicycles do not come equipped with centerstands? Because there are more people likely to be turned off by the added cost, weight, or mere presence of a stand than there are who consider it to be a worthy feature? This is America, T?m. Automatic transmissions, "warm white" (non- white) CFLs, and department store HAUTL* bikes prevail in the marketplace, regardless of virtue or lack thereof. Many of us are able to develop, for lack of a better word, "refined" tastes without any corresponding improvement in overall judgment. Thus we have bike enthusiasts who reflexively avoid useful items like kickstands, fenders, reflectors and spoke protectors that could save them a passel of hassle. Chalo * Hideous Abomination Unto The Lord. Acronym to be used freely with or without
attribution. I don't recall kickstands working too well. The bike tends to tip over. I make sure I lean the bike against a solid wall so it cannot tip over. Or just lay it on the ground so it can't fallover. Much better to be sure than take the risk of a bike falling over with a kickstand. And for touring with loaded panniers? Kickstands definitely do not work for that. Might as well get of your bike and intentionally throw it on the ground as hard as you can. Same effect as using a kickstand


Strange that. Given that just about every other two wheel transportation device comes with a kick stand fitted


Lets look at this very foolish statement you made. Lets take motorcycles as an example.
The tires are about 4 inches wide and much less pressure than bicycle tires. So you have many inches of tread touching the ground at both wheels. Compared to a bicycle which has about 1 square inch of tread touching the ground at both wheels. Lets look at the kickstand. A bicycle kickstand comes to a point about 1 cm square. A motorcycle kickstand is about 4 inches long and 1+ inch wide. So the amount of kickstand touching the ground is many times more with the motorcycle. Now lets look at the front wheel systems. A motorcycle can only turn about 180 degrees in total. You cannot spin a motorcycle wheel completely around. Bicycle front wheels can go about 180 degrees in both directions until the bars hit the top tube. Take all of the above and it is obvious a kickstand can work with a motorcycle. But not with a bicycle.

I believe you have just gone all around Robin Hood's barn to prove
that the bumble bee can't fly.

A very great number of bicycles have stands and they apparently work
pretty well. I've got a couple myself and so far then have never
failed. Whether a loaded front basket like my "city bike" or a pannier
on the rack like other bikes, they work just like they are intended
to.

From your description I doubt that you have ever seen a tripod... Like
a surveyor uses, or a photographer, they don't have big wide tires or
a big wide "foot", and they seem to hold up some fairly expensive
gear.


Perhaps if you had a bike with a proper kick stand mounting plate on the chain stays just behind the bottom bracket where it both acts as a chain stay bridge and as a kick stand attaching point it would be more effective. -- Cheers, John B.
--
Cheers,

John B.

its like drinking gasoline...drink some gas then getb deathly ill soon you'll be really paranoid abt drinking gasoline.

CLANGSCRAPECRUNCH

oh ****......

I believe you have just gone all around Robin Hood's barn to prove that the bumble bee can't fly. A very great number of bicycles have stands and they apparently work pretty well. I've got a couple myself and so far then have never failed. Whether a loaded front basket like my "city bike" or a pannier on the rack like other bikes, they work just like they are intended to

From your description I doubt that you have ever seen a tripod... Like a surveyor uses, or a photographer, they don't have big wide tires or a big wide "foot", and they seem to hold up some fairly expensive gear.

-- Cheers, John B. -- Cheers, John B.


A tripod? I assume you are thinking the two bike tires and the kickstand make a tripod. Three points touching the ground. Hmmmm? I've seen tripods for photography and telescopes. They have three equal length legs. All spaced at 120 degrees. A bike has two legs, the tires, spaced at 180 degrees. And the third leg, kickstand, spaced at 90 degrees between the tires. Not equal weight distribution. And the kickstand does not stand the bike up straight. The bike leans over a number of degrees. Sometimes it leans way over. Its not straight up and down like with cameras and telescopes. So calling the bicycle kickstand as part of a tripod, is foolish. I would never consider the bicycle kickstand to be part of a tripod system.

Despie what some people claim, I am not a fan of kickstands to support a weighted bicycle. Not the single leg kickstand that comes out behind the crankset and causes the bike to lean over.

On Jan 25, 2:01*pm, "
wrote:


I don't recall kickstands working too well. *The bike tends to tip over.. *I make sure I lean the bike against a solid wall so it cannot tip over.. *Or just lay it on the ground so it can't fallover. *Much better to be sure than take the risk of a bike falling over with a kickstand. *And for touring with loaded panniers? *Kickstands definitely do not work for that. *Might as well get of your bike and intentionally throw it on the ground as hard as you can. *Same effect as using a kickstand.

I agree about typical kickstands. There may be designs that works
well, but not the usual ones.

Blackburn used to sell a little stepped plastic block that one could
jam into a front brake lever to lock that brake. I use a variation on
that design on every bike I own, and have done so since long before
Blackburn started selling them. It makes the bike much more stable
when leaned against a wall, etc. - much more stable than a typical
kickstand.

- Frank Krygowski

On Jan 26, 11:38 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 25, 2:01 pm, "

wrote:

I don't recall kickstands working too well. The bike tends to tip over.. I make sure I lean the bike against a solid wall so it cannot tip over. Or just lay it on the ground so it can't fallover. Much better to be sure than take the risk of a bike falling over with a kickstand. And for touring with loaded panniers? Kickstands definitely do not work for that. Might as well get of your bike and intentionally throw it on the ground as hard as you can. Same effect as using a kickstand.

I agree about typical kickstands. There may be designs that works
well, but not the usual ones.

Blackburn used to sell a little stepped plastic block that one could
jam into a front brake lever to lock that brake. I use a variation on
that design on every bike I own, and have done so since long before
Blackburn started selling them. It makes the bike much more stable
when leaned against a wall, etc. - much more stable than a typical
kickstand.


Somewhere in the garage I have one of those wire thingies that mount
to the downtube and flip out to jam the front tire in place. It's
kind of neat and simple and quite effective, and if I ever work as a
messenger I'd probably use it. Again, though, I just don't do a lot
of stopping and parking vs. riding, so riding around all the time with
provisions for parking just aren't worth the clutter and potential for
something going wrong.

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 25, 2:01 pm, "
wrote:


I don't recall kickstands working too well. The bike tends to tip over.
I make sure I lean the bike against a solid wall so it cannot tip over.
Or just lay it on the ground so it can't fallover. Much better to be
sure than take the risk of a bike falling over with a kickstand. And
for touring with loaded panniers? Kickstands definitely do not work for
that. Might as well get of your bike and intentionally throw it on the
ground as hard as you can. Same effect as using a kickstand.

I agree about typical kickstands. There may be designs that works
well, but not the usual ones.

Blackburn used to sell a little stepped plastic block that one could
jam into a front brake lever to lock that brake. I use a variation on
that design on every bike I own, and have done so since long before
Blackburn started selling them. It makes the bike much more stable
when leaned against a wall, etc. - much more stable than a typical
kickstand.

- Frank Krygowski

This is what our mailmen use or mothers with two kids on their bikes. It
doesn't get more stable than this.

http://www.beekhovenbikes.nl/fietson...ard-26-28.html

We in the Netherlands don't have walls or poles enough to lean all our
bikes against.
--
Lou

On 1/26/2013 2:32 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
[...]
We in the Netherlands don't have walls or poles enough to lean all our
bikes against.

Although you will find a lot more Poles in Poland, I understand they do
not appreciate being used as bike racks.

--
Tom $herman

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 16:43:21 -0600, Tom $herman wrote:

On 1/26/2013 2:32 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
[...]
We in the Netherlands don't have walls or poles enough to lean all our
bikes against.

Although you will find a lot more Poles in Poland, I understand they do
not appreciate being used as bike racks.

I don't know about that. There are quite a few Poles in London who would
love a free bike.
--
davethedave

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 11:38:20 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Jan 25, 2:01*pm, "
wrote:


I don't recall kickstands working too well. *The bike tends to tip over. *I make sure I lean the bike against a solid wall so it cannot tip over. *Or just lay it on the ground so it can't fallover. *Much better to be sure than take the risk of a bike falling over with a kickstand. *And for touring with loaded panniers? *Kickstands definitely do not work for that. *Might as well get of your bike and intentionally throw it on the ground as hard as you can. *Same effect as using a kickstand.

I agree about typical kickstands. There may be designs that works
well, but not the usual ones.

Blackburn used to sell a little stepped plastic block that one could
jam into a front brake lever to lock that brake. I use a variation on
that design on every bike I own, and have done so since long before
Blackburn started selling them. It makes the bike much more stable
when leaned against a wall, etc. - much more stable than a typical
kickstand.

- Frank Krygowski

A rubber band "parking brake" :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.