Handlebar rotation

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 4:00:42 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-20 12:42, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
A work cohort ran into another cyclist on a MUP and got a nasty scalp injury with lots of staples (should have been wearing a helmet). What about cars on MUPs! http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...04/205car1.jpg
What about drowning? http://www.carfreerambles.org/wp-con...mette-Path.jpg
MUPs are super-scary!


I never had a scary situation in that respect and I ride bike paths
since about half a century now.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I too have ridden on roads and trails and off road for over one-half of a century nowe and I've NEVER had the close calls or bicycle breakdowns of the frequency that you have. I do NOT find roads with heavy traffic scary. Obviously YMV but bicycling just isn't nearly as dangerous as you pretend it is.

Cheers

On 2017-07-20 14:46, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 1:00:42 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-20 12:42, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 11:32:47 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-20 10:25, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 7:24:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-19 11:30, Duane wrote:
On 19/07/2017 1:39 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-17 02:43, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 12:50:54 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:42:52 PM
UTC-7, John B. wrote:

While admittedly finding an accurate of
just how many people actually ride a
bicycle is probably impossible the fact is
that riding a bike is probably,
statistically, one of the safest thing one
can do on the road.

For example, in 2015 there were 35,092
fatalities while driving or riding in a
motor vehicle and 815 while riding a
bicycle. Yet people argue how dangerious
bicycling is and ignore automobiles.

How many times do you hear people say, "Oh!
I'd be afraid to drive a car. It is so
dangerious."


John - are you trying to convince the man who
drives on busy hill roads alone?

I know what the real chances are and I know
that there are people out there that given a
chance would run over a cyclist.

So if anyone wants to exaggerate the dangers
in their own minds that's their business now
isn't it? And because YOU feel safe what
business is it of yours or mine to try to
convince them otherwise? As I said, some of
the very longest distance riders I know have
quit because they couldn't take the traffic
anymore.

The facts of the matter are that, in 2012,
according to NHTSA statistics there were 734
cyclists deaths and 33,561 total traffic
fatalities. Bicycles amounted to only 2.1% of
all traffic deaths.

-- Cheers,

John B.



And bikes amounted to what percentage of all
traffic?

You will note, I hope, that I prefaced my remarks
with the comment that "While admittedly finding an
accurate of just how many people actually ride a
bicycle is probably impossible" but the point is
that the usual news report says something like
"Horrors! Bicycle deaths in California were XYZ in
20xx"

See:
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/03...uries-cycling/


http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...027-story.html

http://tinyurl.com/ycl3vtm9

If the nation's news services see fit to announce
these astonishing statistics why should I be
different?

But according to the statistics I do find
http://tinyurl.com/ybz2vz69 there were 65.67
million cyclists in 2015 and
http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/data/factsheet_crash.cfm


tells me that in 2015 818 cyclists were killed.

So tell me, what percent of cyclists were killed in
2015?

-- Cheers,

John B.



Your statement was that 2% of traffic fatalities were
cyclists. To know whether or not that is significant
you have to know what percentage of traffic is made
up of cyclists. As you stated, I don't think we
know that.


The average mode share for commutes in cities is far
below 1% in the US:

https://www.census.gov/prod/2014pubs/acs-25.pdf

Now we can safely assume that most people (except in
this NG) generally consider any trip longer than 5mi
"excessive" to cycle and hardly anyone in rural America
uses a bicycle at all. Shopping trips and such are
generally done by car. That means the mileage share
for bicycles will be a small fraction of a percent.



Everything is conjecture if you don't actually know the
numbers.


This is very easy to derive. The ballpark order of
magnitude is rather clear and it doesn't matter whether the
total yearly bicycle miles are 0.1% or 0.5% that of cars.
It proves that cycling in traffic carries more risk than
riding in traffic in a car. I do it anyhow but only if I
have to. Normally I prefer cycling infrastructure like
yesterday a long singletrack. The chance of being hit by a
car there is zero.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Yabbut where you live you can get eaten by a lion on the
local trails. We've had this conversation. Remember?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ican-bush.html




I prefer that remote risk any day to the risk of being struck by a
driver who still has Ambien in his blood. Or booze, or looks at
who just texted him, or is stoned, or hates cyclists and wants
to show them who is boss.

What about the people on MUPs who get raped, robbed, beaten,
etc., etc. I got punched by a meth-head on a bike trail.
https://bikeportland.org/2017/05/18/...orridor-229061




That wasn't a problem here until the new not so nice expression
censored mayor of Sacramento declared it his mission to eradicate
homelessness by promising tons of freebies. Such as housing
vouchers. Then we got pitbull attacks on the MUP, rock throwing,
and so on.

They claim that the steep increase in the homless numbers is all
local. Baloney. Up here in our area the number of homeless has
miraculously shrunk. But body politicus simply doesn't get it.

So, cyclists such as myself now avoid that area. Meaning we also
spend our money not in Sacramento but elsewhere. Oh, and to finance
some fancy arena they also jacked up parking fees, big time.
Meaning that many car drivers now also prefer other locations. The
results look like this:

https://www.bizjournals.com/sacramen...-corridor.html




A work cohort ran into another cyclist on a MUP and got a nasty scalp
injury with lots of staples (should have been wearing a helmet). What
about cars on MUPs!
http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...04/205car1.jpg
What about drowning?
http://www.carfreerambles.org/wp-con...mette-Path.jpg


MUPs are super-scary!


I never had a scary situation in that respect and I ride bike
paths since about half a century now.

Wow. You should try some of our centerpiece facilities.
http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/...ash_on_ti.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHnnw4nSGlU

Or south waterfront -- people walk into the cycletrack, cars drive
into the cycletrack -- buses, trains, streetcars, other bikes going
the opposite direction. This is a low-traffic period:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMe3epl-2o4 Try that at rush hour.
It's like riding through a shopping mall.


That's what they made Airzound horns for. That gets the attention.


And lets not forget the dog herds. There is plenty of opportunity for
mayhem on bike paths, MUPs, cycletracks and all the other separate
facilities.

The world is superdy-duperdy dangerous.


So far the only dog that was a challenge was a Golden Retriever that
liked me or my MTB so much that she wanted to come with me instead her
owner.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-07-20 14:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 4:00:42 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-20 12:42, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
A work cohort ran into another cyclist on a MUP and got a nasty
scalp injury with lots of staples (should have been wearing a
helmet). What about cars on MUPs!
http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...04/205car1.jpg
What about drowning?
http://www.carfreerambles.org/wp-con...mette-Path.jpg


MUPs are super-scary!


I never had a scary situation in that respect and I ride bike
paths since about half a century now.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I too have ridden on roads and trails and off road for over one-half
of a century nowe and I've NEVER had the close calls or bicycle
breakdowns of the frequency that you have. I do NOT find roads with
heavy traffic scary. Obviously YMV but bicycling just isn't nearly as
dangerous as you pretend it is.


It is as dangerous as the statistics say it is.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-07-20 14:51, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 10:24:12 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Sniped
This is very easy to derive. The ballpark order of magnitude is
rather clear and it doesn't matter whether the total yearly bicycle
miles are 0.1% or 0.5% that of cars. It proves that cycling in
traffic carries more risk than riding in traffic in a car. I do it
anyhow but only if I have to. Normally I prefer cycling
infrastructure like yesterday a long singletrack. The chance of
being hit by a car there is zero.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

BUT, BUT, BUT, you MUST HAVE a blindingly bright headlight on in the
daytime in order NOT TO BE HIT BY ILEGL DIRT BIKES! Or at least you
say so. Also you say that dying of thirst out there is a very real
possibility as is getting attacked by mountain lions.


Illegal dirt bikers are a problem but with bright lights they aren't.
For slower riders they aren't either because they hear them coming.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:24:15 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-19 11:30, Duane wrote:
On 19/07/2017 1:39 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-17 02:43, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 12:50:54 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:42:52 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

While admittedly finding an accurate of just how many people
actually
ride a bicycle is probably impossible the fact is that riding a
bike
is probably, statistically, one of the safest thing one can do
on the
road.

For example, in 2015 there were 35,092 fatalities while driving or
riding in a motor vehicle and 815 while riding a bicycle. Yet
people
argue how dangerious bicycling is and ignore automobiles.

How many times do you hear people say, "Oh! I'd be afraid to
drive a
car. It is so dangerious."


John - are you trying to convince the man who drives on busy hill
roads alone?

I know what the real chances are and I know that there are people
out
there that given a chance would run over a cyclist.

So if anyone wants to exaggerate the dangers in their own minds
that's
their business now isn't it? And because YOU feel safe what
business is
it of yours or mine to try to convince them otherwise? As I said,
some
of the very longest distance riders I know have quit because they
couldn't take the traffic anymore.

The facts of the matter are that, in 2012, according to NHTSA
statistics there were 734 cyclists deaths and 33,561 total traffic
fatalities. Bicycles amounted to only 2.1% of all traffic deaths.

--
Cheers,

John B.



And bikes amounted to what percentage of all traffic?

You will note, I hope, that I prefaced my remarks with the comment
that "While admittedly finding an accurate of just how many people
actually ride a bicycle is probably impossible" but the point is that
the usual news report says something like "Horrors! Bicycle deaths in
California were XYZ in 20xx"

See:
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/03...uries-cycling/
http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...027-story.html

http://tinyurl.com/ycl3vtm9

If the nation's news services see fit to announce these astonishing
statistics why should I be different?

But according to the statistics I do find
http://tinyurl.com/ybz2vz69
there were 65.67 million cyclists in 2015 and
http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/data/factsheet_crash.cfm
tells me that in 2015 818 cyclists were killed.

So tell me, what percent of cyclists were killed in 2015?

--
Cheers,

John B.



Your statement was that 2% of traffic fatalities were cyclists. To know
whether or not that is significant you have to know what percentage of
traffic is made up of cyclists. As you stated, I don't think we know
that.


The average mode share for commutes in cities is far below 1% in the US:

https://www.census.gov/prod/2014pubs/acs-25.pdf

Now we can safely assume that most people (except in this NG)
generally consider any trip longer than 5mi "excessive" to cycle and
hardly anyone in rural America uses a bicycle at all. Shopping trips
and such are generally done by car. That means the mileage share for
bicycles will be a small fraction of a percent.



Everything is conjecture if you don't actually know the numbers.


This is very easy to derive. The ballpark order of magnitude is rather
clear and it doesn't matter whether the total yearly bicycle miles are
0.1% or 0.5% that of cars. It proves that cycling in traffic carries
more risk than riding in traffic in a car. I do it anyhow but only if I
have to. Normally I prefer cycling infrastructure like yesterday a long
singletrack. The chance of being hit by a car there is zero.

"the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself, nameless,
unreasoning, unjustified terror...."

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:36:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/20/2017 4:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-20 12:42, jbeattie wrote:

MUPs are super-scary!


I never had a scary situation in that respect and I ride bike paths
since about half a century now.

I've had almost no problems with the scary road situations you keep
bringing up. I've been riding roads as an avid adult cyclist for 45
years now, and before that I rode a lot as a kid.

Frank, I don't think that you understand at all.

You see, bicycling is actually a very dangerious pastime. Actually
more dangerious than bull fighting - 534 professional bullfighters
have died in the ring or from injuries sustained there.

This to actually do bicycling is proof positive that one is a brave,
dauntless and intrepid individual who practically daily engages in a
pastime in which few others are brave enough to participate

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:56:29 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 4:00:42 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-20 12:42, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
A work cohort ran into another cyclist on a MUP and got a nasty scalp injury with lots of staples (should have been wearing a helmet). What about cars on MUPs! http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...04/205car1.jpg
What about drowning? http://www.carfreerambles.org/wp-con...mette-Path.jpg
MUPs are super-scary!


I never had a scary situation in that respect and I ride bike paths
since about half a century now.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I too have ridden on roads and trails and off road for over one-half of a century nowe and I've NEVER had the close calls or bicycle breakdowns of the frequency that you have. I do NOT find roads with heavy traffic scary. Obviously YMV but bicycling just isn't nearly as dangerous as you pretend it is.

Cheers

Ah, but you don't live in California. If you were to reside there you
too could learn to live in fear and trepidation.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 7/20/2017 6:10 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-20 14:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I too have ridden on roads and trails and off road for over one-half
of a century nowe and I've NEVER had the close calls or bicycle
breakdowns of the frequency that you have. I do NOT find roads with
heavy traffic scary. Obviously YMV but bicycling just isn't nearly as
dangerous as you pretend it is.


It is as dangerous as the statistics say it is.

Statistics say Americans ride millions of miles per bike fatality, and
statistics say the health and longevity benefits of cycling greatly
outweigh its tiny risks. You can call it dangerous only if you also
call walking dangerous.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 7/20/2017 4:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-20 13:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/20/2017 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:


Everything is conjecture if you don't actually know the numbers.


This [Danger! Danger!] is very easy to derive. The ballpark order of
magnitude is rather clear and it doesn't matter whether the total
yearly bicycle miles are 0.1% or 0.5% that of cars. It proves that
cycling in traffic carries more risk than riding in traffic in a car.


Please do not falsify other people's posted text.

I understand that English isn't your first language. Perhaps that's why
you don't understand that inserting words in square brackets is the
standard way of adding clarifying words to a quote.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-07-20 20:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/20/2017 4:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-20 13:28, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/20/2017 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:


Everything is conjecture if you don't actually know the numbers.


This [Danger! Danger!] is very easy to derive. The ballpark order of
magnitude is rather clear and it doesn't matter whether the total
yearly bicycle miles are 0.1% or 0.5% that of cars. It proves that
cycling in traffic carries more risk than riding in traffic in a car.


Please do not falsify other people's posted text.

I understand that English isn't your first language. Perhaps that's why
you don't understand that inserting words in square brackets is the
standard way of adding clarifying words to a quote.


Your English skills could also use some tutoring. Writing into other
people's statements propaganda style inside square brackets with
exclamation marks won't even fly at a cheap tabloid.

Maybe you should learn more about Usenet etiquette. On Usenet is is
customary not to snip important parts of the discussion like you did
here. Then messing with anyone's contributions is completely unnecessary.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/