All's not fair in love and science

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 5:00:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2017 6:14 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 11:59:43 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2017 1:55 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 8:50:39 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 4 May 2017 08:13:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I most especially am NOT for naming anything after people save only in the most extraordinary of events such as George Washington having the nation's capital named after him. I don't want to drive down the Highway Patrol Officer Steven Smith Highway because he was killed in the line of duty.

Naming roads or such things are fine (Doolittle Drive named after the raiders that bombed Tokyo on a one way mission).

But naming things after public officials has gotten entirely out of hand.

Come on now - naming a crater on the moon after someone? Naming a bacteria after it's discoverer is bad enough.

You're just jealous because nobody bothered to name a moon crater
after you.

"List of people with craters of the Moon named after them"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_craters_of_the_Moon_named_afte r_them

You can also have a star named after you:
"Stars named after people"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stars_named_after_people

Or even a minor planet:
"List of minor planets named after people"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_planets_named_after_people

Given the choice between a name and a number, I rather prefer the
name.

Incidentally, I once started and later aborted a movement to name a
local park after the moronic drunk who fell off the dam, and then sued
the county for damages. The result was the closing of the park as
being too dangerous. The county took me seriously for about a year
until someone researched the name.

Naming stars does not have to be after people. I agree that major stars should have names and not numbers but who do you suppose was Ursa Major or did you think there was a comment between those two names?


Ursa Major commemorates Bob Hite of course.

You mean the basketball player?


http://www.bobhite.net/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Or it could have been: http://www.latimes.com/local/obituar...331-story.html

On Thu, 4 May 2017 11:55:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Naming stars does not have to be after people. I agree that
major stars should have names and not numbers but who do
you suppose was Ursa Major or did you think there was a
comment between those two names?

Ursa Major means something like "the greatest female bear" in Latin.

It all started with place names, where geological and topographical
features were named after the individual who discovered or exploited
them. When astronomy became popularized and organized, the practice
was extended from the ground to the sky.

As it happens, there are more stars than there are discoverers and
exploiters. Therefore, some stars are stuck with unimaginative and
boring numbers. If there were more worthy individuals available, I'm
sure we would have more names and fewer numbers. You could try to
overturn a few thousand years of naming convention tradition, but I
don't think you'll succeed.

Incidentally, one of my friends was the road commissar for the City of
Santa Cruz for many years. As he was reaching retirement age, he
decided to name a road after himself. Nobody protested, so he
subsequently named 3 more roads after his grandchildren. Oddly,
nobody seemed to have noticed until after the story was leaked to the
press. By then, he had retired and relocated, so the names stayed.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 6:39:09 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 4 May 2017 11:55:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Naming stars does not have to be after people. I agree that
major stars should have names and not numbers but who do
you suppose was Ursa Major or did you think there was a
comment between those two names?

Ursa Major means something like "the greatest female bear" in Latin.

It all started with place names, where geological and topographical
features were named after the individual who discovered or exploited
them. When astronomy became popularized and organized, the practice
was extended from the ground to the sky.

As it happens, there are more stars than there are discoverers and
exploiters. Therefore, some stars are stuck with unimaginative and
boring numbers. If there were more worthy individuals available, I'm
sure we would have more names and fewer numbers. You could try to
overturn a few thousand years of naming convention tradition, but I
don't think you'll succeed.

Incidentally, one of my friends was the road commissar for the City of
Santa Cruz for many years. As he was reaching retirement age, he
decided to name a road after himself. Nobody protested, so he
subsequently named 3 more roads after his grandchildren. Oddly,
nobody seemed to have noticed until after the story was leaked to the
press. By then, he had retired and relocated, so the names stayed.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Well, streets normally are named. In San Francisco there is a spot where three 13th streets all come together and if you're unfamiliar with the area that's a real mess.

On Thu, 4 May 2017 14:32:22 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 1:44:49 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Have you forgotten the galvanometer?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanometer
Essentially, it's a electro-mechanical frog leg.

That's the point I'm making. Everyone with an interest in
electrics and electronics has a voltmeter but who has a
galvanometer (well, except you)?

I think you'll find that galvanometers are more common that you might
suspect. I'm helping a friend build a laser marker scanning head that
uses a Yag laser and a moving mirror that is essentially a
galvanometer.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=laser+galvanometer
I don't believe that I actually own anything that might be considered
a galvanometer.

From each is according to one's abilities. To each is quite arbitrary
and related to little more than good timing and political influence.

Especially in places where political influence is muscle. Lysenko
is an obvious"scientific" example, the muscle being Stalin.

Politics is little more than the exercise of coercion, varying from
subtle to brutal. Peaceful political process is an oxymoron.

Andre Jute
Curiosity and enthusiasm will carry a young man beyond even
the best education money can buy --

I beg to differ. Curiosity and enthusiasm are not suitable
replacements for ability and perseverance. However, once one is will
and able to learn, and to keep at it without giving up, then curiosity
and enthusiasm are quite valuable and important. Money also helps in
today's diploma factories. For our local state college per year:
http://financialaid.ucsc.edu/costs/undergraduate-costs.html
Curiosity and enthusiasm are not going to help much with tuition
expenses. However, if you're suggestion that curiosity and enthusiasm
are suitable replacements for a college education, I would agree, but
only if your mythical young man has ability, perseverance, some
business sense, a good mentor, and possibly some rich backers.

Incidentally, this is somewhat contradictory with "The secret to
engineering is to know when to give up and stop engineering". This
might explain why most engineers make terrible CEO's.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 10:50:31 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 4 May 2017 14:32:22 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 1:44:49 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Have you forgotten the galvanometer?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanometer
Essentially, it's a electro-mechanical frog leg.

That's the point I'm making. Everyone with an interest in
electrics and electronics has a voltmeter but who has a
galvanometer (well, except you)?

I think you'll find that galvanometers are more common that you might
suspect. I'm helping a friend build a laser marker scanning head that
uses a Yag laser and a moving mirror that is essentially a
galvanometer.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=laser+galvanometer
I don't believe that I actually own anything that might be considered
a galvanometer.

From each is according to one's abilities. To each is quite arbitrary
and related to little more than good timing and political influence.

Especially in places where political influence is muscle. Lysenko
is an obvious"scientific" example, the muscle being Stalin.

Politics is little more than the exercise of coercion, varying from
subtle to brutal. Peaceful political process is an oxymoron.

Andre Jute
Curiosity and enthusiasm will carry a young man beyond even
the best education money can buy --

I beg to differ. Curiosity and enthusiasm are not suitable
replacements for ability and perseverance. However, once one is will
and able to learn, and to keep at it without giving up, then curiosity
and enthusiasm are quite valuable and important. Money also helps in
today's diploma factories. For our local state college per year:
http://financialaid.ucsc.edu/costs/undergraduate-costs.html
Curiosity and enthusiasm are not going to help much with tuition
expenses. However, if you're suggestion that curiosity and enthusiasm
are suitable replacements for a college education, I would agree, but
only if your mythical young man has ability, perseverance, some
business sense, a good mentor, and possibly some rich backers.

Incidentally, this is somewhat contradictory with "The secret to
engineering is to know when to give up and stop engineering". This
might explain why most engineers make terrible CEO's.


A voltmeter IS a galvanometer. I think you're mistaking a galvanometer for that device with the centered needle that swings back and forth with the direction of the current. Current and load = voltage and the levels are plus and minus.

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 8:33:36 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 10:50:31 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 4 May 2017 14:32:22 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 1:44:49 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Have you forgotten the galvanometer?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanometer
Essentially, it's a electro-mechanical frog leg.

That's the point I'm making. Everyone with an interest in
electrics and electronics has a voltmeter but who has a
galvanometer (well, except you)?

I think you'll find that galvanometers are more common that you might
suspect. I'm helping a friend build a laser marker scanning head that
uses a Yag laser and a moving mirror that is essentially a
galvanometer.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=laser+galvanometer
I don't believe that I actually own anything that might be considered
a galvanometer.

From each is according to one's abilities. To each is quite arbitrary
and related to little more than good timing and political influence.

Especially in places where political influence is muscle. Lysenko
is an obvious"scientific" example, the muscle being Stalin.

Politics is little more than the exercise of coercion, varying from
subtle to brutal. Peaceful political process is an oxymoron.

Andre Jute
Curiosity and enthusiasm will carry a young man beyond even
the best education money can buy --

I beg to differ. Curiosity and enthusiasm are not suitable
replacements for ability and perseverance. However, once one is will
and able to learn, and to keep at it without giving up, then curiosity
and enthusiasm are quite valuable and important. Money also helps in
today's diploma factories. For our local state college per year:
http://financialaid.ucsc.edu/costs/undergraduate-costs.html
Curiosity and enthusiasm are not going to help much with tuition
expenses. However, if you're suggestion that curiosity and enthusiasm
are suitable replacements for a college education, I would agree, but
only if your mythical young man has ability, perseverance, some
business sense, a good mentor, and possibly some rich backers.

Incidentally, this is somewhat contradictory with "The secret to
engineering is to know when to give up and stop engineering". This
might explain why most engineers make terrible CEO's.


A voltmeter IS a galvanometer. I think you're mistaking a galvanometer for that device with the centered needle that swings back and forth with the direction of the current. Current and load = voltage and the levels are plus and minus.

A VDU, as found in recording studios and film editing suites?

Andre Jute
A meter is a meter is not a meter

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 6:50:31 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 4 May 2017 14:32:22 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

Andre Jute
Curiosity and enthusiasm will carry a young man beyond even
the best education money can buy --

I beg to differ. Curiosity and enthusiasm are not suitable
replacements for ability and perseverance.

Back when I was educated, you didn't need a college degree to apply for a job as a shoe salesman. It was assumed that the able and the persevering were the ones who matriculated into college. I was talking about a young man chosen for his ability, educated, and carried by curiosity and enthusiasm beyond merely having his ticket punched. I'm big on perseverance too, but it's another thing I assume axiomatically to be in the armory of winners.

However, once one is will
and able to learn, and to keep at it without giving up, then curiosity
and enthusiasm are quite valuable and important. Money also helps in
today's diploma factories. For our local state college per year:
http://financialaid.ucsc.edu/costs/undergraduate-costs.html

I'm not so sure. Back in the 1960s/70s it probably cost the same as an average American family's income, $25K, to send a kid to a benchmark university for one year.

Today the average family's income is around $75K, so the $60K the college you cite costs every years falls short of inflation by a whopping fifth, if I have the numbers right. Or maybe they were cheaper back in the day and have just kept pace.

Curiosity and enthusiasm are not going to help much with tuition
expenses. However, if you're suggestion that curiosity and enthusiasm
are suitable replacements for a college education, I would agree, but
only if your mythical young man has ability, perseverance, some
business sense, a good mentor, and possibly some rich backers.

Can't do any harm to know rich people. One meets them at university.

Incidentally, this is somewhat contradictory with "The secret to
engineering is to know when to give up and stop engineering". This
might explain why most engineers make terrible CEO's.

I was too polite to say so, but now that you have admitted it...

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Andre Jute
The problem is too much "education" -- and not enough quality teaching

On Fri, 5 May 2017 18:40:22 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 6:50:31 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 4 May 2017 14:32:22 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

Andre Jute
Curiosity and enthusiasm will carry a young man beyond even
the best education money can buy --

I beg to differ. Curiosity and enthusiasm are not suitable
replacements for ability and perseverance.

Back when I was educated, you didn't need a college degree to apply
for a job as a shoe salesman. It was assumed that the able and the
persevering were the ones who matriculated into college. I was
talking about a young man chosen for his ability, educated, and
carried by curiosity and enthusiasm beyond merely having his ticket
punched. I'm big on perseverance too, but it's another thing I
assume axiomatically to be in the armory of winners.

Back when I was getting educated, the prime motivator was dodging the
draft, getting a deferment, and not ending up fighting in Viet Nam. I
was doing quiet well without a college education and probably would
not have bothered were it not for the draft.

At the time, getting a job was a crap shoot for me. I soon discovered
that everything I was told about ability, education, perseverance, and
such was nothing compared to nepotism, connections, well placed
friends, and good timing. Before and after graduation, no employer
ever bothered to ask for my GPA (grade point average) or how I did in
skool. It was assumed that anyone with a degree was instantly
qualified to do literally everything.

Most important was timing. When I finally graduated and draft
conveniently disappeared, my first job was fixing CB radios and
installing radios in cement mixers for a tiny shop in the middle of
nowhere. I had graduated into a recession and all the well paying
aerospace jobs had disappeared overnight. I soon discovered that the
prime criteria for job placement was showing up on time. My
predecessor had gotten so disgusted that he simply quit without giving
notice. Incidentally, that's why employers like college graduates so
much. They have all demonstrated that they can tolerate 4 years of
intermittent abuse while being fed baloney and performing heroic but
stupid acts on behalf the instructors. Since class attendance is
often mandatory, they have also demonstrated that they can show up
consistently and on time.

However, once one is will
and able to learn, and to keep at it without giving up, then curiosity
and enthusiasm are quite valuable and important. Money also helps in
today's diploma factories. For our local state college per year:
http://financialaid.ucsc.edu/costs/undergraduate-costs.html

I'm not so sure. Back in the 1960s/70s it probably cost the same
as an average American family's income, $25K, to send a kid to
a benchmark university for one year.

It does follow inflation, if you believe the official inflation
figures. I have a chart I made (somewhere) tracking beginning
engineering salaries with entry level single family home prices. They
tracked fairly well from about 1965 to about 2002, when housing prices
took off without a corresponding increase in real income. I'll see if
I can find the chart. I suspect university tuition would also track
beginning engineering salaries, but I don't have time to do the
research.

Today the average family's income is around $75K, so the $60K
the college you cite costs every years falls short of inflation
by a whopping fifth, if I have the numbers right. Or maybe
they were cheaper back in the day and have just kept pace.

I think you're in the right area. College costs have increased
because many services that were included with the tuition now require
payment. Also, there were far more government subsidized loans and
programs to help reduce costs. My guess(tm) is these differences
would probably account for slightly less than your 20% differential.
At the time, the US government was VERY sloppy about collecting on
student loans, making these loans essentially a grant. I would
guess(tm) that the rest is due to the educational system morphing from
a national institution and necessity, to a factory style business.
Part of this was during the Reagan era, where student riots and
burning down buildings was a regular student activity. This didn't go
well with companies and individuals providing grants and contributions
to the colleges. I don't think the system ever really recovered from
the loss of public confidence.

Curiosity and enthusiasm are not going to help much with tuition
expenses. However, if you're suggestion that curiosity and enthusiasm
are suitable replacements for a college education, I would agree, but
only if your mythical young man has ability, perseverance, some
business sense, a good mentor, and possibly some rich backers.

Can't do any harm to know rich people. One meets them at university.

Yep. I really led a sheltered life. I thought a poor person was a
college kid who couldn't afford a car. I learned otherwise rather
quickly after doing a bit of foreign traveling, but only after
graduating college. In general, college students mostly had someone
subsidizing their education. I worked on an outside job all through
college, except for the last 2 semesters, when I was force to study or
drop some classes. I could not have made it through college with the
outside income and some contributions by my family.

Incidentally, this is somewhat contradictory with "The secret to
engineering is to know when to give up and stop engineering". This
might explain why most engineers make terrible CEO's.

I was too polite to say so, but now that you have admitted it...

I really wish there was a consistent and non-contradictory set of
rules for life. Just follow them all, and everything will work as
expected. At least I lost me illusions early. Some people never get
the clue.

Andre Jute
The problem is too much "education" -- and not enough quality teaching

Huh? Teachers do not teach anything. They present the material,
provide a suitable learning environment (e.g. laboratory equipment),
and offer assistance when the student is stuck or has questions. The
student teaches themselves, also known as "learning". The problem is
not exactly too much education. It's when multiple teachers pile on
far too many books, far too many exercises, and have far too many
expectations for any normal student to read all the material, do all
the exercises, and meet all the expectations. When each teacher wants
150% of the students time, and there are perhaps 6 instructors per
semester, little wonder students tend to fall behind. Instead of
learning to do what is necessary, students under such conditions learn
to do the minimum that is necessary, which often means a sub-standard
learning experience. That manifests itself as emphasizing short term
learning, not spending any time pursuing independent studies, and
failing really understand the topic. At best, there very little time
to entertain one's curiosity and to show any enthusiasm for what seems
like drudgery.

As for the instructors, over my 6 years in college, I had several that
were senile, a few that were closet sadists, more than a few that
literally hated students, and a fairly large number that I would
consider to be industry dropouts. That's not counting the Communists
and political agitators that were effectively unemployable. I can
credit my perseverance against such odds to the draft. I would have
dropped out and run away from this educational abomination screaming
in madness.

Have you ever wondered what really motivates teachers? It's not money
because they're badly paid and overloaded with administrative tasks
that have nothing to do with teaching. Instead of money, it's power.
Not political power as in the real world, but power over others as in
the fairy tale version of college in an ivory tower devoid of reality.
It appears as power over the student as well as power over other
instructors. I've seen teachers do some rather bizarre things, that
could only be explained by their thirst for power, or in exercising
their power over someone else. When I ran into such situations, I did
my best to stay well hidden and out of the way.

Nothing is fair in education.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/5/2017 8:40 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 6:50:31 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 4 May 2017 14:32:22 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

Andre Jute
Curiosity and enthusiasm will carry a young man beyond even
the best education money can buy --

I beg to differ. Curiosity and enthusiasm are not suitable
replacements for ability and perseverance.

Back when I was educated, you didn't need a college degree to apply for a job as a shoe salesman. It was assumed that the able and the persevering were the ones who matriculated into college. I was talking about a young man chosen for his ability, educated, and carried by curiosity and enthusiasm beyond merely having his ticket punched. I'm big on perseverance too, but it's another thing I assume axiomatically to be in the armory of winners.

However, once one is will
and able to learn, and to keep at it without giving up, then curiosity
and enthusiasm are quite valuable and important. Money also helps in
today's diploma factories. For our local state college per year:
http://financialaid.ucsc.edu/costs/undergraduate-costs.html

I'm not so sure. Back in the 1960s/70s it probably cost the same as an average American family's income, $25K, to send a kid to a benchmark university for one year.

Today the average family's income is around $75K, so the $60K the college you cite costs every years falls short of inflation by a whopping fifth, if I have the numbers right. Or maybe they were cheaper back in the day and have just kept pace.

Curiosity and enthusiasm are not going to help much with tuition
expenses. However, if you're suggestion that curiosity and enthusiasm
are suitable replacements for a college education, I would agree, but
only if your mythical young man has ability, perseverance, some
business sense, a good mentor, and possibly some rich backers.

Can't do any harm to know rich people. One meets them at university.

Incidentally, this is somewhat contradictory with "The secret to
engineering is to know when to give up and stop engineering". This
might explain why most engineers make terrible CEO's.

I was too polite to say so, but now that you have admitted it...

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Andre Jute
The problem is too much "education" -- and not enough quality teaching


$25,000.00 40 years ago? On what planet?

One might pick and choose data points but I started at $139
per semester, cash on the line, at a large school. Quit at
$250 and not over the price.

p.s. Here's a pithy analysis I enjoyed greatly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8utmmWoBSBY

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Ursa Major commemorates Bob Hite of course." - Andrew Muzi

Andrew, would you please stop damaging my self-image? You make me feel totally unworthy, knowing that I will never even APPROACH your level of trivia knowledge!