Toward self-built wheelset

Yeah, you don't want what happened to King John of England in 1216 to happen to you!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ZUEvuMSgrkczdg

If you lost your family jewels, it would definitely ruin your day.

On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 4:53:52 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 4:07:06 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 10:16:54 PM UTC-7, Gabriele Russo wrote:
Il giorno mercoledì 10 maggio 2017 05:19:19 UTC+2, John B. ha scritto:
Given the relative strength of aluminum and brass one
can only speculate on the advantages, if any, of aluminum over brass.

24 grams of water amounts to 1.6 tablespoons of water :-)

Please, discard we all the aspect of the weight saving of alloy nipples (I premised that as ridicolous matter myself) and release experiences of defective alloy nipples in non-extreme conditions (salt, wet, atmosphere on Mars and so on). Give kindly me well based reasons to give up colors on nipples.
Do you all want me to put away the idea of a wheelset with red nipples, unique in the world? :-)

These guys are pulling your leg. The amount of time it would take to have corrosion problems on a sport bike is roughly forever. I built the same sort of wheels you were describing and that was 10 years ago. I sold them on a bike last year and they were still like new.

Did they have aluminum nipples? I agree that with an ordinary aluminum rim and brass nipples, corrosion is not a problem. It may be a problem with aluminum nipples, but then again, many people use aluminum nipples and have problem-free wheels. It's not like using pasta for spokes or tack-strip for rim tape. It's just a potential problem that, IMO, doesn't have a corresponding up-side beyond a gram or two weight savings -- and color. I don't like pimp wheels, so color is a bug and not a feature.

So, to put a point on it, there is no general prohibition on using aluminum nipples. Go for it. Be colorful. You may have problems and you may not..

-- Jay Beattie.

Yes they had aluminum nipples and yes I occasionally got caught out in the mild rain. Once I was approaching the top of a hard climb and suddenly it poured on me. A minute later it was steaming hot. There was never any marks on the anodized rims or aluminum spoke nipples or around the stainless spokes at either end. The only place I've ever noted corrosion on wheels was on old old Campy Super Record wheels.

In my experience you have FAR more problems with cracking rims from over-tightening spokes and the effects of the horrible California roads. I don't think we need invent other problems.

On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 8:42:11 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 4:53:52 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 10, 2017 at 4:07:06 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 10:16:54 PM UTC-7, Gabriele Russo wrote:
Il giorno mercoledì 10 maggio 2017 05:19:19 UTC+2, John B. ha scritto:
Given the relative strength of aluminum and brass one
can only speculate on the advantages, if any, of aluminum over brass.

24 grams of water amounts to 1.6 tablespoons of water :-)

Please, discard we all the aspect of the weight saving of alloy nipples (I premised that as ridicolous matter myself) and release experiences of defective alloy nipples in non-extreme conditions (salt, wet, atmosphere on Mars and so on). Give kindly me well based reasons to give up colors on nipples.
Do you all want me to put away the idea of a wheelset with red nipples, unique in the world? :-)

These guys are pulling your leg. The amount of time it would take to have corrosion problems on a sport bike is roughly forever. I built the same sort of wheels you were describing and that was 10 years ago. I sold them on a bike last year and they were still like new.

Did they have aluminum nipples? I agree that with an ordinary aluminum rim and brass nipples, corrosion is not a problem. It may be a problem with aluminum nipples, but then again, many people use aluminum nipples and have problem-free wheels. It's not like using pasta for spokes or tack-strip for rim tape. It's just a potential problem that, IMO, doesn't have a corresponding up-side beyond a gram or two weight savings -- and color. I don't like pimp wheels, so color is a bug and not a feature.

So, to put a point on it, there is no general prohibition on using aluminum nipples. Go for it. Be colorful. You may have problems and you may not.

-- Jay Beattie.

Yes they had aluminum nipples and yes I occasionally got caught out in the mild rain. Once I was approaching the top of a hard climb and suddenly it poured on me. A minute later it was steaming hot. There was never any marks on the anodized rims or aluminum spoke nipples or around the stainless spokes at either end. The only place I've ever noted corrosion on wheels was on old old Campy Super Record wheels.

In my experience you have FAR more problems with cracking rims from over-tightening spokes and the effects of the horrible California roads. I don't think we need invent other problems.

I dug around through old pictures and found the set of wheels before the one's I built. They looked identical though were built on Campy record hubs. These one's though red and deep section had the spoke nipple hole liners. These used brass nipples on stainless spokes. And these too lasted forever.

In fact, the only problems I can remember with wheels were Mavic Kyseriums breaking out at the spoke holes. They would crack longitudinally with the spoke holes. They were simply too light and not failing from material incompatibility.

Dear Sirs Councelors,
Please, back to the point. Alloy nipple, thiked.
Now let's face a usual (spoke') problem, as from the Google search, but unsolved: stores sell, as you well know, spokes at only odd lenghts.
DT Swiss Calculator leads to a lenght of 286.6 NDS and 285.0 DS. Offset of the asymmetric rim computed (at the end 0.2 mm is the effect of the offset on the lenght!).
What to purchase?
I suppose, if I remember well from my wheelbuilding activity in my previous life, that a little shorter and a little longer is not a huge problem. Rim is double walled, nipples are 12 mm lenght. What about 286 for all? Or is it better 286/284?
Kindly, light me.

Gabriele Russo ha scritto:

What about 286 for all? Or is it better 286/284?

Good tensioner, brass nipples, linseed oil: 286/284, maximum.

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 12:03:03 AM UTC-7, Gabriele Russo wrote:
Dear Sirs Councelors,
Please, back to the point. Alloy nipple, thiked.
Now let's face a usual (spoke') problem, as from the Google search, but unsolved: stores sell, as you well know, spokes at only odd lenghts.
DT Swiss Calculator leads to a lenght of 286.6 NDS and 285.0 DS. Offset of the asymmetric rim computed (at the end 0.2 mm is the effect of the offset on the lenght!).
What to purchase?
I suppose, if I remember well from my wheelbuilding activity in my previous life, that a little shorter and a little longer is not a huge problem. Rim is double walled, nipples are 12 mm lenght. What about 286 for all? Or is it better 286/284?
Kindly, light me.

Probably fine. Try the calculation on a couple of different spoke calcs just to make sure, and also make sure your raw numbers are right (ERD, flange height, distance, etc.). IMO, a spoke can be 2-3mm too long before you start bottoming out. .6mm too short will make no difference assuming the measurement is otherwise correct. If in doubt, you could go with a 14mm nipple, but I don't think you need to.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 5/12/2017 9:20 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 12:03:03 AM UTC-7, Gabriele Russo wrote:
Dear Sirs Councelors,
Please, back to the point. Alloy nipple, thiked.
Now let's face a usual (spoke') problem, as from the Google search, but unsolved: stores sell, as you well know, spokes at only odd lenghts.
DT Swiss Calculator leads to a lenght of 286.6 NDS and 285.0 DS. Offset of the asymmetric rim computed (at the end 0.2 mm is the effect of the offset on the lenght!).
What to purchase?
I suppose, if I remember well from my wheelbuilding activity in my previous life, that a little shorter and a little longer is not a huge problem. Rim is double walled, nipples are 12 mm lenght. What about 286 for all? Or is it better 286/284?
Kindly, light me.

Probably fine. Try the calculation on a couple of different spoke calcs just to make sure, and also make sure your raw numbers are right (ERD, flange height, distance, etc.). IMO, a spoke can be 2-3mm too long before you start bottoming out. .6mm too short will make no difference assuming the measurement is otherwise correct. If in doubt, you could go with a 14mm nipple, but I don't think you need to.


Long nipples might look better[1] but there's no functional
difference except more weight.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/NIPPLES.JPG

[1]or not. Aesthetic values are personal and have
ill-defined criteria.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 7:53:38 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/12/2017 9:20 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 12:03:03 AM UTC-7, Gabriele Russo wrote:
Dear Sirs Councelors,
Please, back to the point. Alloy nipple, thiked.
Now let's face a usual (spoke') problem, as from the Google search, but unsolved: stores sell, as you well know, spokes at only odd lenghts.
DT Swiss Calculator leads to a lenght of 286.6 NDS and 285.0 DS. Offset of the asymmetric rim computed (at the end 0.2 mm is the effect of the offset on the lenght!).
What to purchase?
I suppose, if I remember well from my wheelbuilding activity in my previous life, that a little shorter and a little longer is not a huge problem.. Rim is double walled, nipples are 12 mm lenght. What about 286 for all? Or is it better 286/284?
Kindly, light me.

Probably fine. Try the calculation on a couple of different spoke calcs just to make sure, and also make sure your raw numbers are right (ERD, flange height, distance, etc.). IMO, a spoke can be 2-3mm too long before you start bottoming out. .6mm too short will make no difference assuming the measurement is otherwise correct. If in doubt, you could go with a 14mm nipple, but I don't think you need to.


Long nipples might look better[1] but there's no functional
difference except more weight.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/NIPPLES.JPG

[1]or not. Aesthetic values are personal and have
ill-defined criteria.

I think DT 14mm nipples actually do give you more threads, but I would still want the spoke end into the head to avoid popping the top. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/dt-threads.jpg http://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/whe...andnipples.jpg

Plus, you run the risk of bottoming out on the right side. Anyway, I think 1mm isn't going to make a difference with 12mm nipples.

Another thing is that popping the top because of a short nipple seems to be more of a problem with aluminum nipples. http://s954.photobucket.com/user/bmu...oke_2.jpg.html Another reason for brass.

-- Jay Beattie.

Il giorno venerdì 12 maggio 2017 16:20:04 UTC+2, jbeattie ha scritto:
Try the calculation on a couple of different spoke calcs

Results, to reason:
a) DT Swiss Calc and Spocalc give EXACTLY the same response: DS 285.0 / NDS 286.6 (reccomended 285/287).
b) Sapim Calc: 286/288 (official ERD as "diameter" and "rim thickness" = 0)

Note: in the DT Calc if you change the nipple lenght from 12 to 14 mm (both the sides), the "accurate" calculation is the same (285.0/286.6), but the "reccomended" gives 284/286. That would take me to the station "nipple 14 and standardly odd spokes".
-----------------------
How do you translate "sex of the angels questioning"?

Il giorno venerdì 12 maggio 2017 17:53:25 UTC+2, jbeattie ha scritto:
I think DT 14mm nipples actually do give you more threads, but I would
still want the spoke end into the head to avoid popping the top.
....but you run the risk to reach the end of the threads on the other side.
For such a reason (explained also by Sheldon Brown) DT Swiss calc reduce the spoke lenght when you lenghten the nipple.