Self-driving cars vs. bikes

John B. considered Fri, 03 Feb 2017 12:28:45
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Thu, 2 Feb 2017 23:30:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2017 6:35 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 2:26:23 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2017 3:05 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 11:06:12 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2017 3:36 PM, wrote:
I can understand the problem with recognizing what bicycles look like. And trying to predict their movement. But couldn't they supplement the visual detection with some kind of electronic marker? Make a new law that all bikes sold in the US must have some imbedded homing device or electronic signal device that the automatic car can detect. Also make them for sale or give away for all the bikes on the road now. A sticker you put on the bottom bracket that the car can detect and then know a bike is there.

Regarding adding a device to a bike: This is being promoted, with the
usual philosophy: "It's so dangerous. Buy our protection!"
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ion-prevention

Here's a critique:
http://john-s-allen.com/blog/?p=7020

I certainly wouldn't want to start mandating yet another "safety" item
for bikes. We've been through that. Such a law would be unenforceable
at best. It certainly wouldn't pass Andrew's "necessary" test!


--
- Frank Krygowski

From the original article, it seemed that the self driving cars were having a hard time reliably identifying bicycles. If self driving cars are the future, then it makes sense to be sure the self driving car can identify a bicycle. Adding a chip, sticker, etc. to the bottom of the bottom bracket would not be much of a problem. If it guarantees that the self driving car knows a bicycle is there. And does not hit him. Nothing required about it I suppose. If a bicyclist wants to killed by a self driving car then he does not have to put the sticker, chip on the bottom of his bottom bracket for the self driving car to identify. Similar to motorcycle helmet laws. Some states allow you to ride without a helmet. Freedom! Of course those states have a much higher motorcycle death and injury statistic. But they have freedom to die on their motorcycle.

I am in favor of freedom. And I'd say that it's incumbent on the
designers of self-driving systems to make sure that they do detect
bicyclists. Sorry if it's difficult, but cyclists are legal road users.
They must be part of the design criteria. Ditto for walkers, joggers,
horses with or without buggies, kids playing at the roadside, etc.

If the idea gains traction that every cyclist should buy a transponder
(or whatever), it won't be long before we'll get the same
blame-the-victim nonsense as we sometimes get with bike helmets: "He'd
be alive today if only he had a transponder." Just like "He would have
survived that robbery attack if only he'd worn a bulletproof vest."

IMO, the requirements should be placed on the agent that's bringing the
hazard, not on the person who's exercising what has always been legal
use of the road.

--
- Frank Krygowski

100 plus years ago all the roads were built for horses and wagons. Then a new device came along. The car and truck. Roads changed to be less accommodating of the horse. Which can still be ridden and driven along the side of roads in most of the US. Maybe on the road too.

Yes, I know.

Your quote "the requirements should be placed on the agent that's bringing the
hazard, not on the person who's exercising what has always been legal
use of the road"

The horse was around a hell of a lot longer than the car. In case you did not know this.

I know that, too, Russell.

So by your thinking the car must be made safe to accommodate the horse.

The laws still require motorists to not harm horses and horse-drawn
carriages.

The car must not go faster than about 10 mph which is the speed of the horse.

That's not a requirement for adequate safety.


Apparently you don't know it, but the world changes. If self driving cars are the future, then making them work with bikes is important. If having an identify device on all bikes works best, then do it.

Well, we're going to differ on that.

Perhaps you would favor enforcing a law requiring that all nighttime
pedestrians carry reflective equipment. I wouldn't. I'm fine with
pedestrians choosing to use reflective gear (or to carry flashlights or
torches); but I don't think they should bear a legal burden in order to
protect themselves from incompetent motorists.

BTW, this isn't hypothetical. There are places where such laws exist.

While I do agree with you, in practice I suggest that in a contest
between two participants, where the possibility are very great that
the weaker will die, some form of prevention may be the better part of
valor.

It will be the collapse of the fossil fuel industry which is most
likely apply the greatest level of prevention. Sooner or later,
people will wake up to the fact that smashing the ground apart to
extract gas, peeling the earth to scrape off the tar, and drilling
holes to pump out vast quantities of excuses not to exercise is
neither sensible or sustainable. We can't even burn the easily
accessible fossil fuel without breaching internationally agreed limits
on climate change, which are still exactly the same, despite what
"alternative facts" Trump may be promoting. Why do you think the
Soudis - where the majority of foreign terrorists to the US have come
from, is not included in his illegal travel ban? Oh yes, he makes a
fortune through his links with the oil business there, along with
selling them weapons so that they can attack their neighbours (who
have even more oil).
Hopefully Mickey won't be any worse than Donald, once impeachment (or
the old Wasingdon two-step, with Donald stepping aside and Micky
pardoning him!) occurs.
Even Disney couldn't make it up!

DIZZY / 14:31


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA9-UlOcJYw

On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 1:03:10 PM UTC-5, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
DIZZY / 14:31


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA9-UlOcJYw

FWD, the safe end

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDyfAw4JJgE