Ways to save energy, carbon, or pollution - NOW!

On May 8, 11:51 am, "Jeff Strickland" wrote:
"Bruce Jensen" wrote in message

ups.com...





On May 8, 8:45 am, "Jeff Strickland" wrote:

4. Put a solar water heater or photovoltaic array on your roof.
Besides saving electricity, it helps keep the house cool.

DO NOT do this because it might help keep the house cool. I have solar
panels on my roof to heat the pool water, and there is no benefit from
the
perspective of keeping the house cool. At least, there is no discernable
benefit.

Jeff - So absorption of the solar radiation, conversion to water heat
and transfer of this heat to the pool does not *noticeably* siphon
away any of the heat that would otherwise conduct through the roof?
It sounded like such a good idea!

BJ

I suppose that when there is enough solar heat to warm the pool water, there
is so much OTHER surface area of the house that is being soaked in sunlight,
that a relative small square footage of roof top covered in black panels
doesn't have much of an overall effect.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I see. I was thinking of something like that large home with a
completely covered rooftop that was featured on NOVA last night. Of
course, that was a $45k system; other featured systems that covered
smaller fractions were much less $$.

BJ

On May 8, 10:54 am, Bruce Jensen wrote:
[snip]
Here at Alameda County offices, we have quite an array over the
parking lot - I understand that the meter turns backwards now pretty
quickly. I am curious how long, if ever, this system will take to
"break even" financially.

With existing solar electricity generation, essentially forever.
If you don't count interest charges on the investment, nor
upkeep and repair, then some decades.

I've seen some very good articles lately about geothermal heat pumps
as well - another technology that is ripe for the exploitation but
hasn't quite caught fire yet.

In most places, the heat flux through the ground is a few kW
per square kilometer. What this means is, if you wanted to
replace one 900 MW nuclear reactor you'd need a collector
that was at least 1000 km on a side. This seems improbable.

If you happen to live near a region that is volcanically active,
do please do the experiment of cooling the ground significantly,
and let me know what that does. Hey, who knows, it might
make the news and relieve you of the need of a lot of things.
The resulting ash cloud might do something for global warming.
Socks

On May 8, 4:56 pm, Puppet_Sock wrote:
On May 8, 10:54 am, Bruce Jensen wrote:

I've seen some very good articles lately about geothermal heat pumps
as well - another technology that is ripe for the exploitation but
hasn't quite caught fire yet.

In most places, the heat flux through the ground is a few kW
per square kilometer. What this means is, if you wanted to
replace one 900 MW nuclear reactor you'd need a collector
that was at least 1000 km on a side. This seems improbable.

I don't think he was referring to power generation. A geothermal heat
pump utilizes temperature differences between the ground and the
surface to achieve heating efficiencies of around 400%:

http://tinyurl.com/b9abd

I am seriously considering installing one in my house this year. They
still require electrical input, so if you want them to be carbon-
neutral, you still have to build the nuke.

CC

On May 8, 2:17 pm, Corvus Corvax wrote:
On May 8, 4:56 pm, Puppet_Sock wrote:

On May 8, 10:54 am, Bruce Jensen wrote:

I've seen some very good articles lately about geothermal heat pumps
as well - another technology that is ripe for the exploitation but
hasn't quite caught fire yet.

In most places, the heat flux through the ground is a few kW
per square kilometer. What this means is, if you wanted to
replace one 900 MW nuclear reactor you'd need a collector
that was at least 1000 km on a side. This seems improbable.

I don't think he was referring to power generation. A geothermal heat
pump utilizes temperature differences between the ground and the
surface to achieve heating efficiencies of around 400%:

http://tinyurl.com/b9abd

Kee-rect.

I am seriously considering installing one in my house this year. They
still require electrical input, so if you want them to be carbon-
neutral, you still have to build the nuke.

....or power them with a PV solar collector or wind turbine...

BTW, where do you live such that this will work for you? Are there
any major geological constraints you know of? I am very interested in
hearing how this works out for you...best of luck with it!

Bruce Jensen

On Tue, 08 May 2007 15:45:28 GMT, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:


"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
.. .
Ways to save energy, carbon, or pollution - NOW!:

1. Replace incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescent bulbs -
especially those you leave on for an extended period. LEDs may be even
better. Fluorescent bulbs may contain mercury, so dispose of them
properly.

2. Use a clothesline whenever possible to dry clothes.

3. Walk, bicycle, or use public transit instead of driving a motor
vehicle.

4. Put a solar water heater or photovoltaic array on your roof.
Besides saving electricity, it helps keep the house cool.

DO NOT do this because it might help keep the house cool. I have solar
panels on my roof to heat the pool water, and there is no benefit from the
perspective of keeping the house cool. At least, there is no discernable
benefit.

That may be because water is a good heat transfer medium, and your
panels are probably flush with the roof, allowing the heat into the
house. PV panels may be separated from the roof, preventing that heat
transfer.

Another thing to think about, solar panels for the pool demand the pool pump
be running during the day, but the utility company wants the pool pump to be
off during the day. I'm not disputing that solar panels for the pool are
good, I really enjoy mine and I get several additional swimming days -- I
estimate I get about 120 extra swim days -- per year and I can keep my pool
heated to 86+ for a very long time with solar while my neighbors get less
than 80 unless they turn on the heater. On the hottest days of summer, I
actually have to shut the solar panels off because the pool water can easily
get to 90+.






Lobby to get
photovoltaics installed over all of our roads, where they won't shade
any wildlife habitat. Rumor has it that Israel has invented a new,
cheaper, more efficient form of PV that uses a metal instead of
silicon.

5. Grow your own food. Not only will you save energy, but you will be
able to eat fresh, organic fruit, vegetables, and maybe even a few
chickens, if you are so inclined. In general, eat food that is grown
locally.

6. Paint your house white (in southern climates, to absorb less heat
from the sun) or dark (in northern climates, to absorb more heat from
the sun). Plant deciduous trees on the south side of the house to
provide shade in the summer.

7. Turn off the pilot light on your heater during the months
(March-November?) when you don't need it.

8. Insulate your house in the attic, below the floor, and in the
walls, preferably with recycled cotton denim insulation.

9. Share your energy-saving ideas as widely as possible.

I welcome other suggestions. I will update this document as I get new
ideas.



Assuming YOU came up with this list, you have finally made a suggestion that
has environmental merit. Maybe there's hope for you after all.



--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 May 2007 15:45:28 GMT, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:


"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
. ..
Ways to save energy, carbon, or pollution - NOW!:

1. Replace incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescent bulbs -
especially those you leave on for an extended period. LEDs may be even
better. Fluorescent bulbs may contain mercury, so dispose of them
properly.

2. Use a clothesline whenever possible to dry clothes.

3. Walk, bicycle, or use public transit instead of driving a motor
vehicle.

4. Put a solar water heater or photovoltaic array on your roof.
Besides saving electricity, it helps keep the house cool.

DO NOT do this because it might help keep the house cool. I have solar
panels on my roof to heat the pool water, and there is no benefit from the
perspective of keeping the house cool. At least, there is no discernable
benefit.

That may be because water is a good heat transfer medium, and your
panels are probably flush with the roof, allowing the heat into the
house. PV panels may be separated from the roof, preventing that heat
transfer.


My panels are not PV. They are black rubber/plastic. Black absorbs heat,
watter passes through and absorbs the heat. The panels are raised about 4
inches above the roof tiles.

On Wed, 09 May 2007 01:21:16 GMT, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:


"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 08 May 2007 15:45:28 GMT, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:


"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
...
Ways to save energy, carbon, or pollution - NOW!:

1. Replace incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescent bulbs -
especially those you leave on for an extended period. LEDs may be even
better. Fluorescent bulbs may contain mercury, so dispose of them
properly.

2. Use a clothesline whenever possible to dry clothes.

3. Walk, bicycle, or use public transit instead of driving a motor
vehicle.

4. Put a solar water heater or photovoltaic array on your roof.
Besides saving electricity, it helps keep the house cool.

DO NOT do this because it might help keep the house cool. I have solar
panels on my roof to heat the pool water, and there is no benefit from the
perspective of keeping the house cool. At least, there is no discernable
benefit.

That may be because water is a good heat transfer medium, and your
panels are probably flush with the roof, allowing the heat into the
house. PV panels may be separated from the roof, preventing that heat
transfer.


My panels are not PV. They are black rubber/plastic. Black absorbs heat,
watter passes through and absorbs the heat. The panels are raised about 4
inches above the roof tiles.

Then they should keep the roof under them cooler than it would
otherwise be. You would have to measure that underneath the roof.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
...
My panels are not PV. They are black rubber/plastic. Black absorbs heat,
watter passes through and absorbs the heat. The panels are raised about 4
inches above the roof tiles.

Then they should keep the roof under them cooler than it would
otherwise be. You would have to measure that underneath the roof.


First, I'd have to care. Second, I'd have to know what the temp was before
the panels went up. Third, the temp inside the attic is the only thing that
is important, and it's very high -- as attics are in my part of the world.

The purpose of the panels is to heat the water. If there is a side benefit,
I can't tell and don't care. Any side benefit is so minute as to be utterly
insignificant. My only point here is that one should buy solar panels for a
swimming pool because they want to warm the pool. There is no other reason
to consider solar panels, keeping the house cooler is not something that
happens.

I'm not dissing panels, I think they are great and well worth the money to
buy and install them. I just dispute the supposed benefit that they will
cool the house.

On Wed, 09 May 2007 22:23:46 GMT, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:


"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
.. .
My panels are not PV. They are black rubber/plastic. Black absorbs heat,
watter passes through and absorbs the heat. The panels are raised about 4
inches above the roof tiles.

Then they should keep the roof under them cooler than it would
otherwise be. You would have to measure that underneath the roof.


First, I'd have to care. Second, I'd have to know what the temp was before
the panels went up. Third, the temp inside the attic is the only thing that
is important, and it's very high -- as attics are in my part of the world.

The purpose of the panels is to heat the water. If there is a side benefit,
I can't tell and don't care. Any side benefit is so minute as to be utterly
insignificant. My only point here is that one should buy solar panels for a
swimming pool because they want to warm the pool. There is no other reason
to consider solar panels, keeping the house cooler is not something that
happens.

I'm not dissing panels, I think they are great and well worth the money to
buy and install them. I just dispute the supposed benefit that they will
cool the house.

I note that you have the ability to easily test that, but prefer to
use your own unscientific judgment -- as usual.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 09 May 2007 22:23:46 GMT, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:


"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
. ..
My panels are not PV. They are black rubber/plastic. Black absorbs heat,
watter passes through and absorbs the heat. The panels are raised about
4
inches above the roof tiles.

Then they should keep the roof under them cooler than it would
otherwise be. You would have to measure that underneath the roof.


First, I'd have to care. Second, I'd have to know what the temp was before
the panels went up. Third, the temp inside the attic is the only thing
that
is important, and it's very high -- as attics are in my part of the world.

The purpose of the panels is to heat the water. If there is a side
benefit,
I can't tell and don't care. Any side benefit is so minute as to be
utterly
insignificant. My only point here is that one should buy solar panels for
a
swimming pool because they want to warm the pool. There is no other reason
to consider solar panels, keeping the house cooler is not something that
happens.

I'm not dissing panels, I think they are great and well worth the money to
buy and install them. I just dispute the supposed benefit that they will
cool the house.

I note that you have the ability to easily test that, but prefer to
use your own unscientific judgment -- as usual.



I haven't the ability to easily test anything. I have no benchmark from
which to compare what I have currently with what I had before the panels
went up onto the roof.